Imagine being a concert pianist!!

[l. ron hubbard]

What glory, what pride!

And, you wake up in the morning,
Your practice starts at six
When practice is so boring
It needs a coffee fix

You play till all your hours
Are all but spent and gone
Cause music's all that matters
And concerts need be done

Your fingers burned on Czerny
How much they are now sore
You now go into frenzy
Ain't not gonna play no more!!!

Oh yeah and there is this whole bunch of stuff on poverty, but I'm pretty sure the glamor of concert life won't tolerate that. 

[weissenberg2]

Why are people so pessimistic about being a concert pianist, and playing the piano in general?

[l. ron hubbard]

Why are people so optimistic about spending all day, for decades of life, glued to the instrument that probably does more harm than good? What good is it if you develop complete exhaustion, attachment, and even resentment for it, not to mention financial insecurity?

[go12_3]

I feel if someone wants to be a concert pianist and brings joy into his/her life then
go for it.  Many become a success and some don't.  It takes a lot of work and
effort into becoming a concert pianist.  When I was in my college years,  wanted to
be a concert pianist.  Although I had the ability and the talent to pull it off, however,
reality came knocking on my door....I wasn't good enough and my nerves got the
best of me.  So that ended my imagining being a concert pianist! 

best wishes,

go12_3

[weissenberg2]

Why are people so optimistic about spending all day, for decades of life, glued to the instrument that probably does more harm than good? What good is it if you develop complete exhaustion, attachment, and even resentment for it, not to mention financial insecurity?

Hardly anyone is optimistic about it. If you are not willing do it for decades of your life, are worried about physical health (which you can easily avoid), if you get completely exhausted from it, you should not do it. To really make it as a concert pianist you have to be willing to do all of this.

[communist]

"Being a concert pianist is glamorous"

-Jeremy Denk

[l. ron hubbard]

Hardly anyone is optimistic about it. If you are not willing do it for decades of your life, are worried about physical health (which you can easily avoid), if you get completely exhausted from it, you should not do it. To really make it as a concert pianist you have to be willing to do all of this.

A tremendous amount of people are willing to be concert artists. But how many actually succeed? Very little, and the ones that do only stay there for a short amount of time before going poor. I am all for playing piano as a hobby; heck, you can play at a concert level if you wish so, but do you really need to devote your life to it?

[go12_3]

Many concert pianists do devote their lives to their profession because they have studied for
several years to accomplish something that they enjoy and would want to share their music
that they practiced on.  It's not an easy road that they chose to go upon and do performances all over the world.  But, it is the life that they choose because they want to and love to.  It is their livihood in order to make a living and pay the bills and housing expenses, like everyone else that has a job. 

best wishes,

go12_3

[richard black]

I'm a professional pianist but not strictly a concert pianist. But I've had plenty of friends during my life who are concert pianists and I wouldn't say any of them seems to be suffering particularly from it. There's always something to complain of in any job - the hours, the artificially-lit office, the constant travelling, the heavy lifting, the crawling through sewers.... depending on what the job is. Why focus on the negatives?

[rc]

Sour grapes?

I get a lot of pleasure and fulfillment from performing what simple music I'm able to.  Sure there's a lot of work behind it.  I imagine that it's a similar feeling to a concert pianist - it's just that the concert pianist is on another level (far far ahead of me!).

Just like how, at my construction job, I'm satisfied to see the final result of hours of work on a difficult project.

[aslanov]

A tremendous amount of people are willing to be concert artists. But how many actually succeed? Very little, and the ones that do only stay there for a short amount of time before going poor. I am all for playing piano as a hobby; heck, you can play at a concert level if you wish so, but do you really need to devote your life to it?

you....are....out of your mind, right?
how can one hope to even become a professional without devoting a FAIR share of your life to it.
Do you think we'd have the fortune of having or had great pianists like horowitz or rubinstein, or hoffman, or lhevinne, if they decided to treat it as a hobby and NOT dedicate their entire lives to it?
Whatever success an aspiring concert pianists achieves is irrelevant to the motive they had for the aspiration. Becoming a successful concert pianist is one of the hardest profession in the world (probably) but it's all the more rewarding. And those that do make it to the top, dont go poor after a short time.  I dont recall horowtiz going poor, or bronfman going poor, or lugansky going poor, or berezovsky going poor........list goes on. Those that meet or surpass the standards of performance are a success, those that don't, well maybe they dont make money but what they've gained from the way there is not lost or undermined in any way.

this thread is utter drivel.

[l. ron hubbard]

You have to understand that times have changed. The pianists of the 20th century are mostly gone. There is so much emphasis on the non-musical aspects of music now. It seems that technique and glamor is emphasized more than musical innovation. Competitions are the mindset now. This is why it is that much harder to succeed as a pianist, because in order for one to even think of competing, one must spend extensive time developing that technique. If only the top players ever get anywhere, the odds are against you, as currently there are countless people striving for the top places. Look at China and see that no one can compete with them. Because artists get shuffled so fast now, it is highly improbable that the popular artists of today will last till tomorrow. Please, enjoy music, but don't drive yourself crazy trying to get anywhere with it.

[lostinidlewonder]

Being a professional anything requires dedication and commitment. There is nothing strange about a concert pianist spending hours and hours a day practicing, it is no different from a doctor spending hours and hours in his surgery or any other job for that matter.

We all work hard to stand out, if we don't work hard and put in that extra effort we never move up from the position we are in. No one in any business can simply work just enough to get by, all good workers will put in that extra effort and dedication. I don't think when we are professionals we think about the time we are giving to our work when we are working, it is our life work afterall! But one must have a healthy balance of work and family/friends/society

I think times have changed, more people are playing piano than ever before. Before it use to be only for the rich and extremely talented, now everyone can learn the piano, it is wonderful. The level required to be a professional teacher/pianist however has dropped because of the increased demand for lessons (however this is somewhat balanced by the increase of information and access to it), and most student that learn never make it past grade 3.

Competitions are only a very small bottle neck of a path for professional musicians to take, most professional musicians work off their own steam, they don't sling shot their career in the "fake" path that competitions can produce. Look at American Idol or any other talent show, these people artifically boost their career which usually fizzles out and they vanish after a few years.

[m19834]

you wake up in the morning,
Your practice starts at six

sometimes it's more like three ...

[richard black]

There is so much emphasis on the non-musical aspects of music now.

That's true. And are you telling us that this wasn't always the case? Read biogs of Liszt and Paderewski, for instance, to find out just how important non-musical aspects were in their relationship with the public. Not to take anything away from their musical achievements, but why else were they _so_ much more famous than other very fine pianists of the day?

[l. ron hubbard]

That's true. And are you telling us that this wasn't always the case? Read biogs of Liszt and Paderewski, for instance, to find out just how important non-musical aspects were in their relationship with the public. Not to take anything away from their musical achievements, but why else were they _so_ much more famous than other very fine pianists of the day?

I think that the only reason guys like Liszt ever achieved fame is because of their innovation. They offered something new. Nowadays, pretty much everyone has that technique, if not more. Look at Lang Lang for instance. People are generally attracted to theatrics. Its hard to attract someone when there are loads doing the same thing.

[aslanov]

I think that the only reason guys like Liszt ever achieved fame is because of their innovation. They offered something new. Nowadays, pretty much everyone has that technique, if not more. Look at Lang Lang for instance. People are generally attracted to theatrics. Its hard to attract someone when there are loads doing the same thing.

those who are attracted to lang lang for his theatrics aren't really....suited to judge music.
look, a professional is a professional. it is their profession to work that hard. Musicians today have loads of technique. they must. An painter must master different types of strokes, poets master their verse schemes, doctors, theorists, etc, etc. The modern musician, however technical proficient, is not judged on his technical proficiency, but his innovation in music making and playing.  the Technique is...sort of a background if you will. Once there are no errors in playing, and the pianist is capable of playing any passage, he has the utmost freedom of expression at that point, and can make the most moving music. He is a professional, and as such, it is his life's work.

[l. ron hubbard]

It doesn't matter who is suited to judge music. What matters is that people are paying to see one thing and that thing is theatrics. Piano has received lots of attention, and countries like China are practically the music centers. Unless you can compete with alot of extremely talented pianists who all excel, piano as a career will be very painful.

[perfect_pitch]

It doesn't matter who is suited to judge music. What matters is that people are paying to see one thing and that thing is theatrics. Piano has received lots of attention, and countries like China are practically the music centers. Unless you can compete with alot of extremely talented pianists who all excel, piano as a career will be very painful.

Man - you're depressing... I personally will work my arse off to become a Professional Pianist and I don't care if there's almost bugger all chance... I admire and love what I do and nothing can stop me...

except pessimistic attitudes and low self-esteem. Maybe that Scientology is *** with your head Mr Hubbard.

[l. ron hubbard]

Sorry to sound this way, but I think it's how things are now. Believe me I know where you are from. I too wanted so badly to be a pianist. Would you rather spend countless years in an effort to achieve something that is near impossible? Wouldn't it be better to enjoy financial security and still play?

[perfect_pitch]

Would you rather spend countless years in an effort to achieve something that is near impossible?

Yes - I'm pretty sure Bill Gates thought the same thing - but look where he is.

I would rather spend years trying to achieve my dreams, than spend minutes giving up on them.

[l. ron hubbard]

Yes - I'm pretty sure Bill Gates thought the same thing - but look where he is.

I would rather spend years trying to achieve my dreams, than spend minutes giving up on them.

If you are Bill Gates, then go for it. There is nothing wrong being passionate. There is peril in being impractical though. A concert artist risks everything. Setting aside financial quandary, there is ample concern for health. Touring is exhausting.

[lostinidlewonder]

.... I too wanted so badly to be a pianist. Would you rather spend countless years in an effort to achieve something that is near impossible? Wouldn't it be better to enjoy financial security and still play?

You do not become a concert pianist or professional musician out of financial reasonings, it is something you must to do for yourself, you think about it when you wake up and it is all you want to work for. In fact I can pretty much bet that if someone is doing their job for money, they will not do their job good at all, no matter what job we are considering.

 Those who distract themselves with the obstacles in their way and wonder how difficult they will be to overcome merely fence sit their whole life and take no risks. Why is life about financial security anyway? If you have your own toilet you are already better off than 50% of this world. Western society places way too much emphasis on the $.

[tds]

And concerts need be done
Your fingers burned on Czerny

concert pianists and CZERNY? are you kidding?

when we have concerts that need to be done, czerny doesnt exist. diarrhea sometimes does

[l. ron hubbard]

You do not become a concert pianist or professional musician out of financial reasonings, it is something you must to do for yourself, you think about it when you wake up and it is all you want to work for. In fact I can pretty much bet that if someone is doing their job for money, they will not do their job good at all, no matter what job we are considering.

 Those who distract themselves with the obstacles in their way and wonder how difficult they will be to overcome merely fence sit their whole life and take no risks. Why is life about financial security anyway? If you have your own toilet you are already better off than 50% of this world. Western society places way too much emphasis on the $.

I am not placing any importance on having alot of financial security. It is just that many musicians are well... homeless.

[communist]

To have a decent-good living as a concert pianist you need three things:

1. Skill

2. good management

3. luck

1, you either have or you don't. 2, if you are good that probably ups your chances on getting good management, 3 helps you get 2.

Hubbard, do you realize you are just making people depressed about there passion? if that is all you are going to do on the forum than why don't you just leave?

[lostinidlewonder]

I am not placing any importance on having alot of financial security. It is just that many musicians are well... homeless.

I know a large musicians guild here in Australia and none of them are homeless or stuggling to eat or keep a roof above their heads. In fact all musicians I meet make an honest living, perhaps not as much as a doctor, engineer or lawyer, but enough to live and continue working with their art. (And if you understand musicians, living to work for your art is more important than living to work for money security but this doesn't mean that we all ignore playing the money game.)

The thing is many musicians are self employed, that is they are not working for any institution. Owning your own business sets you up to be responsible for the money you make and the growth of your business. Unfortunately not all musiicans are business minded so when they try to go it alone they find it tough. It is nothing however that you can't learn, a musician might be poor while they start out, but we all eventually find our niche.

I do not see any difference between musician and any other job for this matter. We all have to stuggle to get somewhere, it is not as if musicians are all poor, just as it is not true that all painting artists live off governemnt support.

I think we have to define what makes a professional musician. For instance I know one guitar teacher who was a computer scientist but chose to take on giutar as a career when he lost his main job. Sometimes some people are musicisn to fall back on something and not be unemployed. These people are merely being musicians to keep the money flow going instead of being homeless!



I don't believe in luck communist It's all about timing, being there are the right time, taking those windows of opportunity when they open. The more you are aware of opportunities the less you will miss them, the more you get lucky I guess!

[perfect_pitch]

I am not placing any importance on having alot of financial security. It is just that many musicians are well... homeless.

Ok - So where the heck do you live??? Because most of the people I went to university with who studied piano are earning a nice living teaching Piano... so I don't know where the hell you live.

Here in Australia, I'm already earning a nice reputation as a Piano teacher. The money isn't brilliant... but I haven't seen any homeless musicians... plus I'm studying for a Major exam next year.

[rc]

I don't believe in luck communist It's all about timing, being there are the right time, taking those windows of opportunity when they open. The more you are aware of opportunities the less you will miss them, the more you get lucky I guess!

Agreed.  I was recently listening to a line in a Tom Waits song:

"Luck is when opportunity meets with preparation"

[communist]

I don't believe in luck communist It's all about timing, being there are the right time, taking those windows of opportunity when they open. The more you are aware of opportunities the less you will miss them, the more you get lucky I guess!

I meant luck in a broader sense. I did mean timing and making good decisions. Luck is just how it plays out for you.

[l. ron hubbard]

Hubbard, do you realize you are just making people depressed about there passion? if that is all you are going to do on the forum than why don't you just leave?

Yes I know that what I am saying may not seem like happy news, but wouldn't you rather have nice living, be able to afford a great house in a good neighborhood, go on vacations, and still play piano with no worries?

I am not of course saying that you shouldn't do whatever you want to do. It is just that living as an honest artist nowadays is very hard and only a few are good at it. "Communist" correctly stated the 3 criteria for a successful concert career. He left out one though and that one is charisma. As an artist you need durability and a way to keep the crowds alive. The top pianists aren't necessarily the best of the best. Lang Lang for instance isn't the most breathtaking pianist I've heard. He is however by far one of the most charismatic ones.

[communist]

Yes I know that what I am saying may not seem like happy news, but wouldn't you rather have nice living, be able to afford a great house in a good neighborhood, go on vacations, and still play piano with no worries?

I am not of course saying that you shouldn't do whatever you want to do. It is just that living as an honest artist nowadays is very hard and only a few are good at it. "Communist" correctly stated the 3 criteria for a successful concert career. He left out one though and that one is charisma. As an artist you need durability and a way to keep the crowds alive. The top pianists aren't necessarily the best of the best. Lang Lang for instance isn't the most breathtaking pianist I've heard. He is however by far one of the most charismatic ones.

As Weissenberg2 said (I think he said): you have to be willing to put those things aside if you want to be a concert artist. If you have the 3 things I stated & charisma there is a decent chance you will be able to get a good house, live in a good neighborhood etc...

[sashaco]

Tom Waits did not originate the line about opportunity and preparation, but it is a good one.
I believe it was Stokowski who got his break as a conductor when a score was lost on tour, and Stokowski just happened to know it by heart and could step in for the conductor.  Just happened?  He had spent enormous amounts of time in the library memorizing scores. (Please correct me if I have this story wrong!)

Time spent doing what you love is never wasted, but I know may people who have continued to strive for things long after their passion is gone, driven by the ambition that earlier formed only a part of a greater passion.  Spending grueling hours at something you don't love, may be neccessary to serve Other passions, but will probably not work in serious music.  The guy who practices six hours a day, entranced by a vision of a glamorous future, rather than engaging with the music itself, is unlikely to achieve that future, except possibly in the most superficial way, which I presume would not satisfy most of the readers of this thread!

[mad_tom]

Here is the reality, the world can support only so many concert pianists:

Successful concert pianists in the world = quite a small number

Pianists that play juist as well, but are not successful = much larger number

People that would like to be concert pianists = enormous number


So however good you are the cruel fact is that a lucrative career is unlikely.  That should not stop anyone that loves music and the piano from studying and practicing hard and pursuing the dream.  But we all have to face the fact that however hard we work, or however well we play, we may still never be able to earn enough to live comfortably from playing classical music.

[bellywelly]

'People that would like to be concert pianists = enormous number'

true that, me included. my teacher laughs at my stupidity, but i continue to dream on 
my teacher has enormous talent, in my opinion, though she refuses to work hard with that talent of hers to make something greater than she has right now. weird hey?

by the way...the argument on this forum is neither here nor there.

but- im in favour of those who work hard for their dream to become a concert pianist, no matter how 'impossible' it is. i admire the courage.