Need advise from teachers and musicians

[hdpsr7]

My 7-year old nephew shows amazing talent only after 2 years of learning.  He is currently taking lesson once a week with a very very good classical pianist. Some musicians, after hearing him, told me that he should learn about chords progression, play different genre of music, improv, etc. to become a musician instead just a classical pianist.  I know he has a whole life ahead of him.  So here I am hoping to get advise from teachers, musicians as to what course of learning he should follow. For example, when should he start learning music theory? Should he start learning to play other types of music like rock, boogie to expand the exposure? and so on. The link below will give a glimpse of my nephew's piano playing ability.

Thank you in advanced.

[loonbohol]

Just like me when I was a Child.

Whatever you do, My best advice is to expose him to a lot of music that is percieved that he would like so that he will not be bored with music.

All you have to do is to HOLD THE LINE because if he loses his interest. He loses everything.
You must have a wide knowledge to piano composers from popular people like Chopin to unpoplular people like Berliz.

THen start quickly and without hesitation.

I suggest that you will let that person attend an orchestra.
A constant entry of music will suit that person well.

DON'T START RIGHT AWAY.
I NEED A SECOND OPINION.

[m19834]

I think the most important thing is actually not musical necessarily, but psychological.  At the root, it's important for his development as a human being AND as an artist to have a fundamental sense of confidence that is not rooted in his ability as a musician/pianist, though obviously his musical abilities need to be somehow rooted in whatever that confidence is. 

But, the more musical exposure and immersion, the better, of course, as loonbohol suggests, in terms of particular aspects of his overall development.  But, if his entire concept of himself and his identity becomes built around his ability at the instrument, and especially of other people's approval or excitement or whatnot regarding his ability, that is going to be a very, very tough road for him and will not, by any means, secure his place within the musical world.  So, I think it's important to draw him out as an individual, to go with some things that are not as obvious in his life and nurture those things; for him to be accepted and nurtured as a more complete individual, not just as a musician/pianist.  And, whatever confidence he has and develops as a musician needs to be rooted in his actual ability to express himself, not just in how his skill compares to others.  It's so tempting for adults to get excited for their own reasons about a child's abilities and potential, and for that excitement to travel down roads that have more to do with the adult's needs rather than the child's.  I think it can be VERY difficult for those whom are helping a child develop to remain true and honest to the child's needs over their own.  And, if a child latches onto competition and is motivated by that, it's so easy for the adults in his/her life to let that be the factor that carries everything through ... for awhile.  I see that as a very average approach to life and music, and there is not actually anything truly special about that, in my opinion.   

So, yes, general musical ability is a good thing ... knowing chords and such, knowing how to improvise and compose and have music be HIS, even when not a soul is looking.  But, hikes and bicycle rides and catching bugs and swimming in the ocean is just as important, if not more.

[njalli]

My advice is, keep him playing classical (he might switch later) but he will get the best piano technique while playing classical music. But if he wants to play something else, don't force him to do anything.

And one other thing, he is really talented but please don't, DON'T, him play pieces like that chopin waltz. The worst thing you can do is to make him play too difficult pieces like that for now. Rather play easy pieces/songs for now and work more on the technique.

[go12_3]

I've been pondering this thread for a while....I think it is highly abnormal for a child that young to be pushed into music theory and making him play difficult pieces.  This nephew will get a burn out later in his young life.  And he has to enjoy playing piano in order to continue his musical training.
best wishes,

go12_3

[m19834]

Just let him be a kid and let him play whatever he wants to learn and live a normal life as every child on this earth should do.

Actually, no.

[go12_3]

Actually, no.

Meaning? 

[m19834]

Meaning?  

A childhood and a life without careful guidance and smart structure is not going to do him and his development (musical or otherwise) any favors, either.  Sometimes trying to make a person live a "normal" childhood, "just like all the other little children," can ruin and stifle development just as much as  --if not more than-- anything else.  I see no reason to treat this particular individual as though he is just like every other child that walks into a teacher's studio, and I see no reason for a parent to do that with this child, either.

[go12_3]

I'm a bit tired today, pardon for the miswording of my former post, Karli.  The pieces he learns will be chosen by the discretion of his teacher, of course, and I didn't imply that he should play whatever he wants to. 

Indeed, this particular child does need the necessary guidance in his musical training which woud require a fine teacher to understand his abilities and what he is capable of learning.  I am sure
this student will progress rapidly, but to caution the speed of his learning which may be a hinderance in his future.  As he develops physically, mentally and emotionally, I am sure he will do fine, however,  he needs to learn other aspects of music and not over load his mind.  Children are quick to learn, and yet they need time to relax and play also.  The support of parents and family is important for this young student to assure him a musical career---if that would be his desire later in his life.  It all depends upon the environment and nurturing in order for this student to progress happily and successfully. 

best wishes,

go12_3

[m19834]

I didn't imply that he should play whatever he wants to. 

Yes, actually, you did.

[mcdiddy1]

I think what everyone is commenting on are the danger of making yet another talented child stop pursuing music because of trying to give the student to much to handle or to prevent the child from experiencing a good quality childhood such as Mozart and Beethoven.

My personal opinion is to find a great teacher that is intrested not in making the child into a version of the teacher but becoming a happy individual with great musical skills. Kids need both guidance and nurturing so why not find a teacher who give them both. At the  end of the day all these post have the right intention with the well-being of child being considered first and not to say teach everything about music theory and give him the most technically demanding pieces. Who ever he is learning from is doing just find teaching because he is clearly learning musical skills. The question is does he want to learn about playing the piano well or just learning about musician?

In my opinion, I would have the child dabble in a little bit of everything and find out where his interest lies. We have seen many horror stories of students ditching music because they were forced to do things the were not ready to do or had no interest in. If he enjoys classical music thats fine but if he only plays classical music simply because he has never been exposed to anything thats different. In my studio recital I have some students playing jazz, popular music, classical music, impressionistic music and some want to play rock material. They discovered what they liked based on the environment they live in not because I felt the next thing they should learn is jazz or they should learn classical music. Too many times we think there is a certain path that someone must take to be successful in music. Just support him in his music studies and encourage him and never make it a burden. Expose him different music and his path of music learning with come.

[m19834]

I think what everyone is commenting on are the danger of making yet another talented child stop pursuing music because of trying to give the student to much to handle or to prevent the child from experiencing a good quality childhood such as Mozart and Beethoven.

No, actually.  There are much more dangerous things than whether or not a child, talented or not, simply continues with music (however, there are blurry lines there).  What I am commenting on is his self-image, his sense of confidence/value/self-worth, and his ability to continue growing as a human being/individual (and musician) for the rest of his life.

And, the purpose of exposure to different genres of music, the purpose of immersion within it, the purpose of learning music theory and history and such, is to better grasp, understand, and utilize how the language works, even within different contexts.  It's not to find where his interests do or do not lay.

Also, some individuals need to be incredibly challenged by their studies and by their teacher(s) -- even be asked of more than they may think they can give -- in order to truly grow.  

[go12_3]

Yes, actually, you did.

       And so what if I did imply that?  I mean, you make it more of an issue on
what I said....never mind! 

[nanabush]

Just don't put your kid in 300 different activities during the week.  Some kids I teach seem to be pretty promising, except half way through the year they just stop because they are burnt out from the amount of commitment to their extra curricular stuff.  It's really tough winning over the parent, because I know that the soccer coach, the karate master, and the teacher at school are also trying the same thing.

If you believe your kid has potential, allow him the time to practice and to flourish, and as said earlier, don't overwhelm him.  It's too bad when RIGHT after piano lessons, the kid has to rush to a hockey game, and by the time he is home he's forgotten everything.  I'm not saying other activities are bad, it's just that there's a point where I find the kid has no clue where to even begin.

I went off on a tangent...  big time.

[go12_3]

Just don't put your kid in 300 different activities during the week.  Some kids I teach seem to be pretty promising, except half way through the year they just stop because they are burnt out from the amount of commitment to their extra curricular stuff.  It's really tough winning over the parent, because I know that the soccer coach, the karate master, and the teacher at school are also trying the same thing.

If you believe your kid has potential, allow him the time to practice and to flourish, and as said earlier, don't overwhelm him.  It's too bad when RIGHT after piano lessons, the kid has to rush to a hockey game, and by the time he is home he's forgotten everything.  I'm not saying other activities are bad, it's just that there's a point where I find the kid has no clue where to even begin.

I went off on a tangent...  big time.

 I don't think so you have gone on a tangent.  I just had a student quit because of the Christmas holiday... and I have students that juggle with tons of school/sport activities and when they come to lesson, they can hardly play as well and;  I have to be patient about that aspect of their lives.  Children are being pulled in many directions due to activities. 

best wishes,

go12_3

[mcdiddy1]

No, actually.  There are much more dangerous things than whether or not a child, talented or not, simply continues with music (however, there are blurry lines there).  What I am commenting on is his self-image, his sense of confidence/value/self-worth, and his ability to continue growing as a human being/individual (and musician) for the rest of his life.

And, the purpose of exposure to different genres of music, the purpose of immersion within it, the purpose of learning music theory and history and such, is to better grasp, understand, and utilize how the language works, even within different contexts.  It's not to find where his interests do or do not lay.

Also, some individuals need to be incredibly challenged by their studies and by their teacher(s) -- even be asked of more than they may think they can give -- in order to truly grow.  

Well that is what I am getting at when I talk about having a good quality childhood.....problems that start in childhood often linger on into adulthood. What I am commenting on specifically is the fact that teachers are fully aware that the descisions we make today can alter a child's perception of self- worth and and value. Do some individuals need to be pushed more than others ....sure...but it depends on the individuals background and environment.
          Music theory and history learning is important to be come musically educated however pushing the child to learn that at the expense of consideration of their personal situation, life style and interest, is irresponsible and has potential to cause damage to their abilities as a musician and in life.
              There are positive examples of successful children prodigies , Sarah Chang and Issac Pearlman, but the untold stories of children with enormous talent and abilites that no only quit music but despise it because of a lost childhood I venture to say out-weight the success stories. The only way to determine which of these categories this could potentially fit under you have to understand the individual. But clearly the danger does exist if you consider that the danger is not in music itself but in the pressures of being "successful" in music.

[go12_3]

I think that in being successful in music, in performing any instrument, has to be determined by the personality of the child and desire.  That desire may be innate or implanted by parents and teachers that are supportive in order to give the child prodigy a chance to grow and live a healthy life, physically and mentally, which will enable him/her to develop musically.  It cannot be pushed nor rushed, although the child has the ability to play well; and even that has to be monitored due to incorrect posture and finger-technique---arched fingers, relaxed wrists and so forth as the child grows older.   

best wishes,

go12_3

[m19834]

Well that is what I am getting at when I talk about having a good quality childhood.....problems that start in childhood often linger on into adulthood. What I am commenting on specifically is the fact that teachers are fully aware that the decisions we make today can alter a child's perception of self- worth and and value. Do some individuals need to be pushed more than others ....sure...but it depends on the individuals background and environment.

Well, of course I don't disagree with you there and I don't believe I ever wrote about anything that would contradict, but would rather on its own tend toward what you are saying.  In other words, I feel that this is something similar to what I have already said.

This, though :

Music theory and history learning is important to be come musically educated (...)

Is not really my point, exactly.  It would be fine and dandy if everybody in the world were to be sufficiently "musically educated" but, once again, I am not talking about something that is a one-size-fits-all kind of idea.  Again, the point in those things, at least for some individuals, is not to just be educated in some generic way.  The point is, as I stated above, to better grasp, understand, and utilize how the language works, even within different contexts.  Sure, call that "musically educated" but, with respect to the fine print in what it means to be an "artist" or a "child prodigy," the point in being musically educated in that way is to be capable of expressing oneself in a way that is, ultimately, completely their own.  

Which brings me to my next point and my response to the rest of your post.  If we are talking about what it means to have a good quality childhood while at the same time having an extreme talent and gift at anything, there are not only two categories; positive examples of child prodigies and negative ones.  There is, I suspect, at least a third.  If by a negative example of a child prodigy we imply that to be an individual who -- let's just say -- has next to no sense of value and self-worth, I have to say that I believe it is just as easy for there to be an individual that perhaps had a major talent and/or gift but for whatever reason(s) never had the opportunity to develop that, and ALSO has no sense of self-worth nor value (which is a better life, btw ?).  That is my idea of another category when it comes to all of this.

If we are talking about depression, emotional, mental and social problems, as well as "lost childhoods" ... those things can go hand-in-hand just as easily for somebody whose talents and gifts were essentially locked up in some dark and hidden inner-cave as they can for somebody who was locked up to a ball and chain at the piano bench.  I think that one type, at its worst, can lead to something like "going postal" ... the individual who just can't stand it anymore and basically loses it.  Whereas the other, at its worst, can lead to being the mastermind of an atrocious act, like Mr. Unibomber ... because everything inside of him/her was A LOT and was stifled somewhere along the lines, the individual ends up not knowing what to do with themselves and his/her "gifts" turn into a twisted way of expression.  Okay, those are extreme, but still, those people do exist.

I don't think that every child/individual is a walking time-bomb, however, once again, we are not actually talking about "every child" ... we are not talking about what is considered to be average nor "normal" ... we are talking about individuals whom seem to have within them something that somehow goes beyond what is average and normal (at least within a particular structure to world-thinking).  Something that, I believe, is innate in some way within that individual and doesn't just go away because of how they were treated while growing up; it more or less only changes forms and behaviors.  That is where I feel it's important to be quite careful.  My main point though, is that IF it IS possible to "ruin" a person with too much of a thing, I have to say that it's also possible to ruin a person with too little, too.

Wow, well, there is WAY more to this but I am going now !  Bwye bwye !

[avguste]

well, personally I believe in the performance training I received.
I began piano and music at the age of 5 with theory, sight singing, solfege, piano and everything in between.
But at the end of the day, it also depends on what you want for your child's future and your child wants

[mcdiddy1]

Which brings me to my next point and my response to the rest of your post.  If we are talking about what it means to have a good quality childhood while at the same time having an extreme talent and gift at anything, there are not only two categories; positive examples of child prodigies and negative ones.  There is, I suspect, at least a third.  If by a negative example of a child prodigy we imply that to be an individual who -- let's just say -- has next to no sense of value and self-worth, I have to say that I believe it is just as easy for there to be an individual that perhaps had a major talent and/or gift but for whatever reason(s) never had the opportunity to develop that, and ALSO has no sense of self-worth nor value (which is a better life, btw ?).  That is my idea of another category when it comes to all of this.

[/quote]

I agree with your point about some children that have a gift and are never pushed. Whenever I have a student that has done well with another teacher and show the capacity to work hard, I will give the student a challenging piece to see how they can adapt. Some excel at the challenge however some do it not. It has more to do with intrinsic motivation than anything and the determining factor tends to be the child's will and desire to be succeed in music.

While I do fundamentally agree with your statement, it seems to imply that if a student has a gift if they are not pushed enough, they will have a ruined childhood. The question I have is what is wrong with allowing a child to have a natural gift that is simply celebrated for what it is? I feel based on your comments that you feel not pushing a child is equivalent to stifling a child and not allowing the student to grow. I feel a child can have a natural ability, never be professional musician and live a perfectly normal life.
       The possibility of someone saying " No one ever pushed me or challenged me musically" is an interesting concept and is one I have never heard. That doesn't mean it does not exist.
           As a child, I loved music and I could not get my hand off it. I would find music that was too hard for me and learn and try to play it. It was not natural ability but desire to do it. Desire that came from me being allowed to choose and not pushed into. I was trying to play Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody when I was 14! Of course I wasn't mentally or technically capable of truly tackling a piece but my parents allowed it to happen. This kind of goes back to my point of having a nurturing environment.
              If is from this perspective that I say children should be allowed to grow into music and make choices. If they have talent and gift AND DESIRE they should have guidance from a qualified teacher like your child. However although it is possible there could be a unibomber who felt he was stifled in music expression, I personally think that is an extremely rare possibility while kids being "burned out by music "( whatever that means) is more common. I see that because I have experience it.
                 If someone is going to become a Unibomber I feel it would have to do more with the environment and mental state of the person rather than musical challenge. Like in my case, if the child wanted to be musically challenged all it would take is a trip to music store and planting a book of Beethoven Sonatas and Liszt etudes in front of them. Challenging them is the easy part, but teaching them to get ready to meet and overcome them is what teaching is all about.

[m19834]

It very much depends on the individual student and how they respond to whatever they are being guided by. Not even all child prodigies are the same, of course. Aside from other learning/environmental circumstances, I believe that it also takes a very deep and special bond between student and teacher in order for these things to work themselves out in the right ways.  A qualified teacher is not only an individual who helps to build skill but whom also has him/herself a soul that is a right fit for the "occasion."  

[lostinidlewonder]

My 7-year old nephew shows amazing talent only after 2 years of learning.

The video given is impressive memory work for a 7 years old. There is immaturity in his approach to express a phrase of music however but this is not something that will not improve as he learns and listens to more.

He is currently taking lesson once a week with a very very good classical pianist. Some musicians, after hearing him, told me that he should learn about chords progression, play different genre of music, improv, etc. to become a musician instead just a classical pianist. 

Generally I have found that a trained classical pianist can more easily study the "jazz" side of piano than a trained jazz pianist can classical. Studying Jazz in my opinion often requires a great deal of rhythmic creativity and phrasing/articulation which evades most young peoples minds (unless they are jazz orientated, which is more rare than finding a gifted child in classical music.) I also think finding a teacher who is trained in jazz is a lot harder than finding one that is trained in classical. Most classical teachers will cower and assume the foetal position if you ask them to teach improvisation.

What is most important is that the young student of the piano gets to know about the learning process. How to sight read a piece, learn to absorb it into muscular memory and also into their sound memory (hearing the phrases of music in their head). Do not work too hard on trying to perfect single pieces because that can waste a lot of time, a piece does not have to be played with mastery before a child moves on but they should understand how to keep an upkeep of the pieces they have finished memorizing and how to constantly improve upon it. Too many young children treat piano as simply "button pressing", like a game of guitar hero or something. They don't care what it sounds like so long the correct notes are hit. Musical maturity is different with all children, as teachers we should cultivate a critical ear in our students, one where the student can undertand what is musically effective and what is just plain boring and machine like.

I really don't think that Chopin Waltzes are appropriate for your son though, however if he loves that music great, he is missing out on the singing nature of Chopin music when he plays which is so essential however so a large chunk of the knoweldge base of the waltz is just missed out on. He needs to learn smaller positions (not these large LH leap figures of waltzes), learn to control phrases and play musically instead of just the notes. He should be learning some short studies or etudes from various composers which focus on arpeggio and scale work.

[mcdiddy1]

It very much depends on the individual student and how they respond to whatever they are being guided by. Not even all child prodigies are the same, of course. Aside from other learning/environmental circumstances, I believe that it also takes a very deep and special bond between student and teacher in order for these things to work themselves out in the right ways.  A qualified teacher is not only an individual who helps to build skill but whom also has him/herself a soul that is a right fit for the "occasion."  

I completely agree with you point

[hdpsr7]

Thank you all for your comments and advices. I believe this boy is given enough chanllege without being pushed. He has music books by Mozart, Chopin, Beethoven, Bach, Pischna, Bartok, Czerny, and Clementi that he just opens them and plays various pieces on his own. By the time he goes his teacher's studio, he enjoys and learns the full 60 minutes. He has a good rapport with his teacher, that helps.  Our goal is to give him the opportunities for him to develop his full potential in music.  Again, many thanks.

[slobone]

He has a great talent but he needs a really good teacher to develop it. He shouldn't be playing pieces like this one, he's not ready for it yet.

It's OK if he enjoys sight reading pieces by all those composers. But it's more important for him to be working on his technique. His teacher should be assigning more appropriate pieces and making sure he learns what he needs to learn in the right order. Then if he wants to sight-read after he's done practicing, that's great.

[hdpsr7]

4 years forward. This child is now 11 and  still very much into classical music, taking lessons from a professional teacher every week. He has developed excellent sight reading skill. The music school also have him in music theory and playing duets with another piano or violin. Overall I think the teacher and the school are doing an excellent job training him.  However, he still likes to learn and play the pieces that he likes on his own.  There lies some conflict: the teacher seemed to prefer that he not learning and playing pieces on his own, doing that would instill bad techniques.  Learning the same piece weeks after weeks, and even months after months is boring to him. We just let him play what he wants to play because he can read and memorize a long piece very very easily.  Recently he learned and memorized the Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata 3rd Movement within several days and played for our guests a several weeks later. I can tell that he really likes this composition. And we all enjoyed hearing him play.  Are we doing him a dis-service?  We are not piano players so we cannot judge his techniques, good or bad. Should we continue to encourage to play what he likes?  Below is the youtube link of this piece. The sound and picture quality were suppressed some by Youtube. I hope to hear from you.  Many thanks.

[awesom_o]

I'm afraid he has developed some very worrying technical habits! It is good that he has developed sight reading skill, but this video shows that his standards of musicianship overall are quite sloppy.

If your teacher was pleased with the way the boy played in the video, then it is time for another teacher!

Beethoven Sonatas are definitely too hard for him. It sounds like Clementi Sonatinas would be more appropriate for the level he is at! In my opinion, you are doing him a dis-service by allowing him to perform publicly already. He is not yet ready for the stage.

[cabbynum]

He is no where near ready for beethoven sonatas, few mistakes are okay. but fistfuls thrown around the whole thing are not okay. The teacher should be okay with playing with other pieces as long as he still gets the pieces the teacher assigned done. A good thing for your nephew to do would be to show the teacher some of these pieces so that he doesnt further his bad technique.

He needs a new teacher though, like ASAP.




side note: When i had less on my piano plate i would walk into each lesson with something new to show my teacher. He loved it, we would broaden our musical horizons together through this.

i ended up moving teachers for various reasons, but that teacher and i have remained friends. In fact not too long ago he came over to have a "jam session" on some chopin and beethoven

[gyzzzmo]

If the kid likes what he's doing now, let him keep doign it. If he wants to learn other types of music later, he can always do it then. Classical music is a much better basis for jazz or popular, than the other way around.

[hdpsr7]

This was not really a public performance.  He just entertained our family friends before the golf season. Like I had noted earlier, the kid learned this piece all by himself. What remarkable was that he memorized the 18 pages of this piece within several days. When you learn something new, long and difficult like this piece, and without proper guidance, you will make mistakes on different levels.  His teacher had nothing to do with him playing this piece.  I am sure the teacher would not approve to have him tackle this piece. The kid wanted to discover and enjoyed new sound and rhythm. I've seen some children quit piano when the teacher was too difficult and the learning was too rigid and boring.

[pytheamateur]

If you want my advice, I would spell it with a "c" when used as a noun.