Prokofiev Sonata 3... a huge rhythm 'what the' moment. m27

[nanabush]

I'm planning on starting this, have looked through the sheets a little while back, nothing serious, but I want to play this for school, and hopefully finish for April.

Everything seems fine, until Measure 27.  The notes fit, but I can't wrap my mind around that rhythm.  In each triplet, the right hand has beats 1 and 2, and left hand has beats 2 and 3.  For some reason, when I try this, I naturally put the emphasis on beat two, and it shifts the entire meter over one beat of a triplet, then when the other part in measure 29 comes in, I feel like I have to pause to keep the rhythm.

Is the rhythm supposed to have that feel, or am I supposed to emphasize the first beat of the triplet?  It just doesn't feel right.

It's written like: (top line is right hand, bottom is left hand)

::: DA-da     DA-da    DA-da
:::      da-da     da-da    da-da

but it feels like:

::: da-DA     da-DA     da-DA
:::      DA-da     DA-da     DA-da


If that makes any sense... (DA is strong beat, da is weak, for clarification)

My technique is fine, I've played enough stuff that level, so I don't want any "play easier prokofiev stuff first".  This is probably one of the few rhythmic things that is scrambling my brain.

[mwsc042]

The desired musical effect of this passage is an offset rhythm (due to the simple fact of both right and left hand coming together on the weak beats of the triplet figure). As the player, though, you have to consciously mentally mark the first beat of each triplet to stay in rhythm to produce that effect (as well as avoid that pause problem). Putting light emphasis on the 1 beat of each triplet during practice (though with less emphasis than the accented beats) will help. You can even verbally say "1" on the first beat of the weak triplets till it's been internalized. You sound like a pretty experienced player so you should be able to nail this down in a few practice sessions tops.

[nanabush]

Phew;  I'm starting to get it pretty fluently (at a crawl), but I know what you mean.  I started by tapping my foot on the first beat, and now I'm trying to count it in my head without making any physical gestures on each beat.  I love how it does that though - phases into that offset rhythm, then jumps back on beat when the hands go apart from each other.

Thanks for the reply; I was literally checking the forum every 2-3 minutes for the last hour and a half for a reply 

I was reading past threads (only two came up), and the biggest issue people have is the writing style.  Written in A minor, no key changes, but SO many modulations with loads of accidentals.  It fits really nicely for my hand, I just hope that I have the patience to decode a few of the nastier parts.

Since I started this thread, if anyone has any other general insight on this piece (wikipiedia has nothing, and as said earlier, there are two very short threads about this, and a load of audition threads where people just say the name of the piece and nothing more), feel free to share.  Any good recordings, or any tips.  I'm really surprised more threads on this haven't come up 

[mwsc042]

I've got four recordings of it by Gary Graffman, Boris Berman, Gyorgy Sandor, and Vladimir Ovchinikov. I won't bias you by saying which one I prefer the most. I've uploaded the mp3s to here : https://rapidshare.com/files/316054967/Prokofiev_-_Piano_Sonata_No._03__Op._28_in_A_minor.rar.html

You'll need Winrar to unzip them (https://www.rarsoft.com/rar/wrar390.exe)

Additionally, YouTube has quite a few entries as well from amateur to professional:

https://video.google.com/videosearch?sourceid=navclient&rlz=1T4PCTA_enUS323US323&q=Prokofiev+Piano+Sonata+No.+3+Youtube&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=R6UYS_XEPIzgnAeWg_XbAw&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CA4QqwQwAA#sourceid=navclient&rlz=1T4PCTA_enUS323US323&q=Prokofiev+Piano+Sonata+No.+3+Youtube&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=R6UYS_XEPIzgnAeWg_XbAw&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CA4QqwQwAA&qvid=Prokofiev+Piano+Sonata+No.+3+Youtube&vid=931852779488657444

I haven't worked on this sonata, though from various recordings the biggest problem I hear is too much pedaling (which should be executed very judiciously) and playing it too fast without regards to musical context. The whole thing should snap, crackle and pop with a giddy bounciness. Hope this helps!

[nanabush]

Wow thanks a ton for the recordings!  I like hearing the different stuff each performer brings out, especially in the slower middle part.

The rhythm isn't too bad for me anymore, and it's nearly like solving a sudoku finding fingerings for the note-for-note parts between the hands.  I've spent a good hour getting some solid fingering for pages 3-4, and I'm actually enjoying it because the end product (hopefully) will be amazing.