Chopin Etude Op 10 No 12

[xxcookziexx]

For this piece I understand that the tempo and fluency is crucial, however no matter how hard I practise I can't seem to get this piece up to speed. Any tips?

[ramseytheii]

For this piece I understand that the tempo and fluency is crucial, however no matter how hard I practise I can't seem to get this piece up to speed. Any tips?

Practice harder.

What's your problem exactly?  You can't play the left hand fast enough?  You can't get to the right hand chords fast enough?  You can't play hands together?  Your hands feel awkward?  Can you read it well enough?  Do you have trouble with the fingering?  In order to get something better, you have to know what the problem is.  How can anyone help you, when you don't even say what is holding you back?

All general principles are derived from real, specific situations.  Give us something specific.

Walter Ramsey

[xxcookziexx]

Well the fingering is fine and I can read it fine. It's the left hand, my hand just seems to stiffen up.

[pianisten1989]

Practice with metronome.
Take a calm tempo, where you have control over everything, and play it in a bit higher tempo. and so on... Worked great for me in no 4

[ramseytheii]

Well the fingering is fine and I can read it fine. It's the left hand, my hand just seems to stiffen up.

I think that several principles will apply here.  For one your elbow has to be able to move in clockwise, and counter-clockwise ways, depending on the direction of the music.   In the opening left hand phrase, the elbow will be making very small counter-clockwise movements.

For this to work, you have to be loose in the shoulder.

Also, you need to play in and out of the keys.  This is easier shown than described, but basically, you can't put all your fingers down in the same place on every key, you have to move your hand closer or further from the fallboard based on the length of the fingers and their placement on the keyboard.  You really won't get a good description from reading something, but perhaps if you watch for it on a video.

Essential to the touch is stroking the keys, so that you can get momentum going all the way down.  If you only play down into the key, and not pull slightly out of the key (towards your torso), you will get stuck.

Finally, the second (index) finger is essential in broken scales like this.  I haven't seen you play but usually it is the finger that stiffens up the most.  You have to imagine that the second finger is guiding the whole hand down the keyboard.

Postscript: play it in slow motion, so that you can experience keeping the left hand focussed and free, while jumping over the keyboard with the right hand.  Practice the right hand in octaves, minus the chords, so that you fight any tendency to bang.

Walter Ramsey

[nyonyo]

This etudes is a very difficult etude to master, even for professional pianists.
So it is not surprising that you have difficulties to play this etude.

The best way to learn this etude is to hire a very good teacher. Seeking help from people in this forum is virtually useless, because 99.9% of people in this forum just know how to talk about piano etc, they themselves do not know how to play piano (what we call internet pianists).

[stevebob]

This etudes is a very difficult etude to master, even for professional pianists.
So it is not surprising that you have difficulties to play this etude.

The best way to learn this etude is to hire a very good teacher. Seeking help from people in this forum is virtually useless, because 99.9% of people in this forum just know how to talk about piano etc, they themselves do not know how to play piano (what we call internet pianists).

I don't consider that 10/12 is "a very difficult etude to master" for a proficient pianist (professional or otherwise), unless one assumes a viewpoint that (1) every piece of music is difficult to master, or (2) no piece is ever truly mastered (i.e., "perfected") by anyone.  And while I'm sure that the phenomenon of "playing a pianist on the internet" is real—it's manifest in any field of endeavor that some people talk the talk but can't walk the walk—I'm very skeptical that 99.9% of the people in this forum are in that category.

Nor do I agree that the best way to learn this etude (or anything else) is categorically to hire a "good teacher."  It might be for some people, but I think it might also be argued that if one is sufficiently advanced to play advanced repertoire at all, it can be accomplished that through self-directed study.  Many people do it—and are satisfied with both the process and the results.

I would also point out that not all teachers are "good"; even teachers who are good at teaching the fundamentals to beginners may be less effective for students who progress beyond that level.  I'm convinced that an unsuitable (or downright bad) teacher can easily be worse than no teacher at all.  As a student pianist advances, options become increasingly limited; outside of major metropolitan areas, options are always limited (as they are anywhere in the developing world).

I believe that the best teachers teach students ultimately to teach themselves, and we really can learn much from the experiences of our peers.  A critical ear for listening is a musician's ally, just as a critical eye and critical thinking enable one to recognize competent advice from a reliable source.

[nyonyo]

I don't consider that 10/12 is "a very difficult etude to master" for a proficient pianist (professional or otherwise), unless one assumes a viewpoint that (1) every piece of music is difficult to master, or (2) no piece is ever truly mastered (i.e., "perfected") by anyone.  And while I'm sure that the phenomenon of "playing a pianist on the internet" is real—it's manifest in any field of endeavor that some people talk the talk but can't walk the walk—I'm very skeptical that 99.9% of the people in this forum are in that category.

Nor do I agree that the best way to learn this etude (or anything else) is categorically to hire a "good teacher."  It might be for some people, but I think it might also be argued that if one is sufficiently advanced to play advanced repertoire at all, it can be accomplished that through self-directed study.  Many people do it—and are satisfied with both the process and the results.

I would also point out that not all teachers are "good"; even teachers who are good at teaching the fundamentals to beginners may be less effective for students who progress beyond that level.  I'm convinced that an unsuitable (or downright bad) teacher can easily be worse than no teacher at all.  As a student pianist advances, options become increasingly limited; outside of major metropolitan areas, options are always limited (as they are anywhere in the developing world).

I believe that the best teachers teach students ultimately to teach themselves, and we really can learn much from the experiences of our peers.  A critical ear for listening is a musician's ally, just as a critical eye and critical thinking enable one to recognize competent advice from a reliable source.

I understand your thinking, I used to think that way. I played Revolutionary etude about 20 years ago. However, the more and more I know, the more I realized that this etude is virtually impossible to be played by non professional. Again, it depends on the standard. If you one wants to play high standard, this pieces is extremely difficult. Actually, even to play up to the tempo, this piece will give problems to most pianists. Many people misrepresent themselves, they said they know how to play this pieces. In reality, they can play only 50% of the standard tempo.

Assuming one has enough ability, a good teacher (concert pianist level) will unlock so many difficulties which hobbyists cannot overcome. There were times I was nearly gave up with certain pieces, because I could not play cleaner or faster. I went to my piano lesson, within 5 to 10 min, my teacher was able to correct the problems. You may have not found a good teacher yet, once you found one, you will say having a good piano teacher will speed up the learning process.

[stevebob]

If this particular etude were considered virtually unplayable by the non-professional pianist, then every other etude in the literature would be as well.  There's nothing that distinguishes it as uniquely challenging or having insurmountable challenges, and indeed most would regard it as one of the more approachable of Chopin's etudes.

As regards "standard tempo" vis-à-vis Chopin's etudes, consider that the majority of the fast ones are merely designated Allegro or some variant of Allegro; a few are marked Vivace, and only 10/4 and 25/2 call for Presto.  It's frequently observed that Chopin's M.M. numbers seem out of sync with the verbal tempo indication (e.g., 176 bpm for 10/1); perhaps the lighter and shallower actions of pianos of that era facilitated high speed.  In any case, it's customary for professionals to play fast etudes as fast as possible (ostensibly for sheer virtuosic display).  That's just not something to which the non-professional need aspire; Allegro doesn't mean "as fast as possible," after all.

If you've found a good teacher and, as a consequence, have seen beneficial results to your technique, that's great!  I don't believe that it's a one-size-fits-all proposition, though, and I reject the implication that those who favor a different approach are doing something dubious or unworthy.

You may not approve of self-teaching amateurs choosing to learn advanced repertoire (and blame what you perceive as a failure to reach the highest standards on not having a good teacher), but we're doing it nonetheless.  It's ultimately up to the individual to decide whether the process and the product are a satisfying and profitable expenditure of one's time and effort.

However trite catchphrases like Whatever works and Different strokes are, they seem applicable here.

[liordavid]

in the left hand i would accent the 16th notes with my thumb. I would consider doing the same with my right