"ghost" notes

[pianowolfi]

Well, this is an excerpt from one of my improvs. At 14-15", while I'm keeping a note for quite a long time, there appear notes like an echoe, which I surely didn't play. I wonder where they may come from. Harmonics? I know that tape recordings used to cause such effects, but this is a digital recording with a Yamaha AW 1600 Workstation....


Edit:
That's a screenshot of the Wave file at the respective point of the file, the spot where the "ghostnotes" appear is marked with a circle. So, actually there is no amplitude at all.. and I have used the maximal zoom to look for it (not in this screenshot though.)

[littletune]

WOW this is sooo COOL!!       First i didnt even think i could hear it (because im not that good at music and at listening) but then I listened with my headphones and i heard it! And it's so cool! And when I listen to it I get this feeling like it reminds me of something but I can't remember of what  But it's something nice
So doesn't anyone know why this is? I wanna know Could it be an echo or not? Maybe it's an echo from another universe! I think I better don't even start with this I have WAY too much imagination!      

[pianowolfi]

Yeah I find it cool, too   During the day at least. If I listen in the night, it honestly scares me  ...lol 
But I think there must be a rational explanation for it.

[ted]

The notes are in the waveform, Wolfi. I took it into Audacity and amplified it. The shaded section in the attached picture shows them quite clearly. What caused them is another question, but they are in the waveform.

[pianowolfi]

The notes are in the waveform, Wolfi. I took it into Audacity and amplified it. The shaded section in the attached picture shows them quite clearly. What caused them is another question, but they are in the waveform.

Hey that's really cool Ted, thank you

I didn't think of Audacity. My program hasn't got that amplification rate, I suppose. I used to do some things with Audacity too, but I always encountered problems. One of them was a huge background noise which I couldn't get under control. So I got used to other programs.

[richard black]

The Audacity screen grab doesn't show the notes, but they are visible on a high-resolution spectrum analysis within Izotope RX. I'm at a loss to explain them, though, unless they are an MP3 artefact. I've seen a lot of funny things in recordings, but never that one before!

[pianowolfi]

The Audacity screen grab doesn't show the notes, but they are visible on a high-resolution spectrum analysis within Izotope RX. I'm at a loss to explain them, though, unless they are an MP3 artefact. I've seen a lot of funny things in recordings, but never that one before!

I'm sure they aren't an mp3 artefact because they also appear in the original file which is a wave file, which I have double checked many times. Thanks for your input

I plan to write the exact combination of chords out, test them on the piano and see what happens...

[ted]

A very interesting experiment, please let us know the results. If it is a sympathetic vibration of some kind, bear in mind the difficulty of duplicating precise ambient conditions, temperature and so on. At various times I have noticed peculiar extraneous noises in my recordings. Some have baffled me for some time but in the end they were all explicable. The funniest was when a bird, apparently nesting in the chimney, answered remarkably piano-like phrases (in tune) in response to very high treble notes. Because the bird was not always present, most recordings did not exhibit the sounds and I wasted much time in fruitless testing and wondering. It is also surprising just how many objects in an average room are capable of giving out resonant frequencies when stimulated by a loud piano.   

[richard black]

No, of course if it's a WAV recording then MP3 artefacts can't be the cause.

Then the only thing I can think of is an outside noise. I can't conceive of any way that A-sharp could arise from the chord you're holding due to electronic or acoustic effects.

[thalbergmad]

I think it is Elvis trying to make contact from the other side.

Thal

[richard black]

No, Thal, it doesn't go 'uh-huh'.

[littletune]

Yeah I find it cool, too   During the day at least. If I listen in the night, it honestly scares me  ...lol 
But I think there must be a rational explanation for it.

Yeah I'm like that too During the day I wish it would be ghosts and something from another universe but then at night I get really really scared and I don't want to think about things like that AT ALL! But I still think ghosts are cool!  and I like them I just hope they're all nice But even if they're nice I think I would get really scared if I saw one at night
Once me and my friend were recording ourselves on an old tape recorder and when we listened to it we heard ourselves talking but in the background we could hear some really high singing like there were some angels singing or something and she said that there was nothing on that tape before and even if there was something on the tape from before that it sure wouldnt be that kind of singing couse she said nobody in her family listened to that kind of music. So we got really scared and we hid the tape somewhere outside and then after some time it disapeared! 

[synthex]

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[pianowolfi]

Hi synthex, thank you very much for your feedback

I have now posted  the whole thing on the improv board

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=36666.msg419230#msg419230

the "ghost notes" are at 20'19''

[thalbergmad]

You could try posting over at gearslutz....weird bunch though

Excellent name for a website.

One can imagine the average member.

Thal

[lostinidlewonder]

The A# has quite a lot of energy in it compared to the B, the B looks like it is sympathetically vibrating irregularly (and also gained some energy from the very unusual A# entry) with the sustained sound but how can energy be created with the A#? It could be an internal irregularity, maybe the B hammer caught the side of the A# when you withdrew the fingers from the note, or something else caught the A# string.  Where you using una corda pedal at all?

Note the image is where pianofwolfi is only sustaining the sound and not playing or adding any energy by playing a note. Thus we expect that the sound will slowly decrease in energy and no energy created. Notice the A# in the image shows that the energy was NOT of greater magnitude than what was sustained before, but you you notice how it is bunched up and darker colored seemingly filled with energy compared to the thin line produced before it. This compression of air shows however is immediate and sudden, and certainly shows that energy has been created or at least this string stole energy from other vibrations.

Perhaps the energy is from withdrawing hammers or a pedal moving or being touched or some moth flying onto the string otherwise a very strange sympathetic vibration example which you will might be able to reproduce with heaps of attempts.

Sound has been amplified about 1000% noise reduction fiddled with, then sound amplified again ~200%.

[pianowolfi]

Thank you lostin, great contribution! Whatever the cause of these notes may be, through this diagram and your mp3's and comments I get a much better idea of their course
Whatever may have caused them, to me it gets more clear that they serve a sort of purpose in the structure of the piece...

[synthex]

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[pianowolfi]

Slutz fo gear, not the smokable sort fortunately or unfortunately depending on your viewpoint   Some excellent knowledgeable people there regarding audio theory and recording techniques.  Never posted there myself, used it many times for information purposes though.

Lol

Thanks for your suggestions anyway

[synthex]

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