Brown Out

[thalbergmad]

We are getting near the time when we will hopefully rid the Country of the worst Prime Minister in our history.

I feel like holding a party to celebrate the end of a Labour government if it actually happens.

Are there enough loafers, criminals, single mothers & immigrants who have the right to vote, to keep him in power??

Good riddance to him i say.

Thal

[stevebob]

Are there enough loafers, criminals, single mothers & immigrants who have the right to vote, to keep him in power??

Are there enough bigots to vote him out of office?

[thalbergmad]

Not sure. Perhaps the old lady he branded as one behind her back might no longer be inclined to vote for him.

Thal

[oxy60]

That moment might be the one that defines this campaign. What's wrong with him? He acted like I might have during my first campaign. You don't need to be scripted all the time but he was really too loose.

It is time for a change in GB. Not only that, it is also time to get the financial house in order. For the moment sterling is steady. Keep our fingers crossed.

[ahinton]

Gordon Brown's party will almost certainly poll less votes than either the Tories or the LibDems next Thursday but, unless that vote count goes down to below 18% of the whole, there remains a reasonable risk that his party will still retain the most seats (thanks to the first-past-the-post system that his colleague-in-arms David Cameron inexplicably wants to hold onto for dear life) he will therefore be able to visit the Queen to request dispensation to form an (albeit far from majority) government in which the immediately subsequent horse-trading that goes with hung parliament terroitory will be so intense that it goes nowhere because no one can afford enough horses, so there'll have to be at least one more General Election in UK before the year's out. If all three such elections result, irrespective of turnout, in a three-way hung parliament (not especially likely but at the same time far from impossible), at the third fall it may possibly no longer be a case of anyone going to the Queen to ask to form a government but of the Queen going to the House of Commons to dissolve parliament on a permanent basis before dissolving the monarchy in the probably forlorn hope that someone somewhere will put up a reasonable offer to buy the country; after all, if the already economically and financially parlous Britain is seen internationally to be so consistently incapable of making any kind of decision as to who should even try to govern it three times in succession, then it will surely be perceived that there is no longer any hope or justification for its continued existance as an independent country - and if the SNP and Plaid Cymru do reasonably well out of any or all of these elections, the hiving off of Scotland and Wales from the remainder of the current union will weaken its position yet farther, making such dissolutions that much easier and more likely.

None of this may happen, of course but, if so, then roll on the non-revolution...

Best,

Alistair

[ronde_des_sylphes]

We are getting near the time when we will hopefully rid the Country of the worst Prime Minister in our history.

I feel like holding a party to celebrate the end of a Labour government if it actually happens.

Yup, I know how you feel, and my views are on the left wing of the political spectrum. I can't stand the man. I'd rather listen to the Schumann concerto than him droning on sanctimoniously about how he saved the world's economy, and other sundry misrepresentations of reality.

[gep]

unless that vote count goes down to below 18% of the whole, there remains a reasonable risk that his party will still retain the most seats

While I would not wish to suggest I understand the UK voting system completely (a system that, as far as I understand, is a match to the Byzantine complexity of the UK pre-numerical coin system), it seems strange to me that the distribution of seats is not a reflection of the distribution of the votes. Here in the Netherlands, a party that gets 18% of the votes gets 27 seats (being 18% of 150 seats). That said, overhere each government we had since we have had something like party politics is a combination of at least two parties, and it is far from unusual that a party (doens't matter which ones, they all do it) forgets or turns about 180° anything that during the campaign was cut in granite if it means getting them to power.
But what the UK has by way of the Shed of Guys and Galls  (sorry, I mean the The Right Honourable the Lords Spiritual and Temporal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in Parliament assembled of course) seems to be democrap rather than democrazy...
Not that the Dutch swindlers and betrayers saviours of our economy and hypocrits guardians of morals and values are much, if any, better, mind! We've got elections coming June, after the present MP (Major Pain) has managed to blow the 4th coalition under his inspired leadership in a row (and one heck of a row it was too!). So I've got two more months to figure out who I wish to betray represent me the coming time...

Happy vo[mi]ting!

gep

[ahinton]

While I would not wish to suggest I understand the UK voting system completely (a system that, as far as I understand, is a match to the Byzantine complexity of the UK pre-numerical coin system)

Far more so, actually - and the entire purpose of its retention appears to be to ensure the permanency of such lack of general understanding.

it seems strange to me that the distribution of seats is not a reflection of the distribution of the votes. Here in the Netherlands, a party that gets 18% of the votes gets 27 seats (being 18% of 150 seats).

That's because your country has adopted a form of Proportional Representation, a concept that the UK Liberal Democrats have always advocated and which even Broon's Loons are now beginnng to consider but which the Tories declare themslves to be dead against.

That said, overhere each government we had since we have had something like party politics is a combination of at least two parties, and it is far from unusual that a party (doens't matter which ones, they all do it) forgets or turns about 180° anything that during the campaign was cut in granite if it means getting them to power.

In UK, we had a "hung parliament" of that kind for a while in the 1970s; it didn't work any better than most of the electorae expected it to. The vacillatory volte-faces that you describe, however, are as familiar over here as they are in your country; if a party promises something in its manifesto, you can almost guarantee that they'll do something quite different if they get into power.

But what the UK has by way of the Shed of Guys and Galls  (sorry, I mean the The Right Honourable the Lords Spiritual and Temporal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in Parliament assembled of course) seems to be democrap rather than democrazy...

Most elegantly and appositely put, if I may say so!

Best,

Alistair

[gep]

The Right Honourable the Lords Spiritual and Temporal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in Parliament assembled

But the name puzzles me a bit, though. Shouldn't it be The Right Honourable the Lords Spiritual and Temporal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland insofar it wants to be, Gibraltar, the Falkland Islands No Matter What Argentina Says, Faroer, A Slice Of Antarctica and Various-Other-Bits-And-Pieces-That-Currently-Slip-Our-Minds-You-Know-Thingy-Tip-Of-Our-Tongue in Parliament assembled?

Pardon my asking, but exactly how Common is Wealth in the UK?

  gep

[ahinton]

But the name puzzles me a bit, though. Shouldn't it be The Right Honourable the Lords Spiritual and Temporal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland insofar it wants to be, Gibraltar, the Falkland Islands No Matter What Argentina Says, Faroer, A Slice Of Antarctica and Various-Other-Bits-And-Pieces-That-Currently-Slip-Our-Minds-You-Know-Thingy-Tip-Of-Our-Tongue in Parliament assembled?

Please don't suggest this, because those who maintain what you correctly describe as a Byzantine electoral system would probably jump at adopting it for the very same reasons as they want to maintain that voting system! Anyway, if it were to be adopted, "Cornwall" would need to be inserted somewhere in the list of principalities and, after the reference to Northern Ireland, the insertion of "but not the Isle of Man under any circumstances" might not come amiss.

Actually, come to think of it, this alone would surely be as good a justification as any for the abolition of that quaintly named "Upper House", would it not?

Pardon my asking, but exactly how Common is Wealth in the UK?

Like the Commonwealth itself, a lot less so than was once the case, methinks!

Best,

Alistair

[mephisto]

Regardless of how much I disslike Brown, are the others really any better?

And I am sure this comment will make me unpopular: I found nothing admirable about that old lady either.

[ahinton]

Regardless of how much I disslike Brown, are the others really any better?

Less bad, I would rather say. Brown has wreaked havoc over Britain during his Chancellorship of the Exchequer and his shorter record as unelected Prime Minister has been little better.

And I am sure this comment will make me unpopular: I found nothing admirable about that old lady either.

Nor did I. "Where are all these east Europeans flocking from?" Well, maybe eastern Europe, possibly? The intellectual level of her questioning of Brown did not, however, merit Brown's unguarded responses thereafter.

Best,

Alistair

[mephisto]

Less bad, I would rather say. Brown has wreaked havoc over Britain buring his Chancellorship of the Exchequer and his shorter record as unelected Prime Minister has been little better.
Nor did I. "Where are all these east Europeans flocking from?" Well, maybe eastern Europe, possibly? The intellectual level of her questionng of Brown did not, however, merit Brown's unguarded responses thereafter.

Best,

Alistair

Thanks. Who do you favor between the tories and the libdems?

[ahinton]

Thanks. Who do you favor between the tories and the libdems?

Yes. I mean no. Well, in terms of who ought to be in government, anyway. As to who might actually achieve it, my best guess would be, in order of likelihood from greatest to least
1. A two-way hung parliament between Tories and LibDems with Labour a close third
2. A Tory win but by only a few seats
3. A two-way hung parliament between Tories and Labour with LibDems a close third
4. A three-way hung parliament between all the main parties
5. A Labour win but by only a few seats
6. A LibDem win but by only a few seats.
None of the above will likely result in a strong government.

Best,

Alistair

[prometheus]

Libdems will get the most votes but they will come in last place.

[ahinton]

Libdems will get the most votes but they will come in last place.

This kind of thing is indeed one of the problems that will inevitably throw the result, whatever it turns out to be. The possible spectacle of Labour in third place on votes and first on seats, were it to become reality, might just spark off sufficient protest to initiate a change to that antediluvian and hopelessly unworkable system - and wouldn't be before time!

Best,

Alistair

[prometheus]

Almost every European country and even the US have silly election systems. They are all 150 years or longer obsolete.

It's all held back by corruption and established interests. Like population census in the US is deliberately done wrong because it affects distribution of seats.

[thalbergmad]

There is a squatter in 10 Downing Street.

Worse than Hitler at the height of his delusions, Brown sees his Country collapse before his eyes and still refuses to budge. He has no mandate from the British people, nor has he ever done.

What will it take to get rid of this moron???

Thal

[oxy60]

With proportional representation in this election would it be easier to form a government?

[ahinton]

There is a squatter in 10 Downing Street.

Worse than Hitler at the height of his delusions, Brown sees his Country collapse before his eyes and still refuses to budge. He has no mandate from the British people, nor has he ever done.

What will it take to get rid of this moron???

Thal

The onward march of time - although even when Brown is ultimately ousted from No. 10 you surely have a right to expect him to continue to cause as yet untold damage elsewhere from suchever new position to which he may be forced to migrate therefrom. That said, I don't think it entirely fair to accuse even the dreaded Brown of being a "squatter" in No. 10 until such time (if such time ever arrives, which indeed it may not) as what might appear to be a more legitimate incumbent emerges which, to be honest, may well be in doubt for and during at least another couple of General Election re-runs, not even the first of which is yet ready to be announced.

Considerable patience is therefore required...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

The onward march of time - although even when Brown is ultimately ousted from No. 10 you surely have a right to expect him to continue to cause as yet untold damage elsewhere from suchever new position to which he may be foreced to migrate therefrom.

Send him back to Scotland where he can do as much damage as he wants.

Thal

[ahinton]

Send him back to Scotland where he can do as much damage as he wants.

What "damage" do you suppose that he could actually do there (always assuming that the powers that be [not] in England could even achieve the deportation goal that you suggest here) that he has not already done a hundred-fold and more in England while present there as British Chancellor of the Exchequer and then as Prime Minister? Why might you assume that Alex Salmond would allow him to wreak such havoc in Scotland as he has a long record of having done south of the border?

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

With proportional representation in this election would it be easier to form a government?

What would have made it easier would be to have only counted the English vote, where Cameron had a 297-191 majority.

Thal

[ahinton]

Never mind - the simple conclusion to draw from the result is that Labour and the LibDems lost and the Conservatives didn't win.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

As of this afternoon he has announced his resignation.

Best,

Alistair

[gep]

You may have (had) Brown; we've been having the "benefit" of the Euro for almost 10 years now. I doubt that Mr. Brown has been more expensive to the UK than the Euro would have been. The Netherlands has recently put €5 BILLION into Greece due to that country's phantasy economy (but we are not to worry, we will be getting it back with 5% annual cummulative interest. Such will happen in the year that Easter and Christmas will fall on the same date), and just today I've heard Euro-land will make (how??) a reserve of almost half a TRILLION Euro's in case some other countries with, let us say, imaginative ways to do economy have various versions of shat hitting various fans. Oh, and the people here will face dire economic measures because of some economic crises, so we will need to tighten our expenses. Could become an interesting show, since we've got elections coming up. Rockhard promises made of hot butter, no doubt! "Believe me, trust me, have a little faith in me", and so on and so forth!
I heard an economist just last Friday who gives the Euro 5 most years at most.

Whatever Brown did, at least he didn't bring you the blessings of the Euro. You may have Brown out, we're going to a blackout if things are left to rot more, which no doubt they will be.

all best,
gep

[thalbergmad]

Whatever Brown did, at least he didn't bring you the blessings of the Euro.

Indeed, but he still signed away swathes of power to Europe, gave back billions in rebate and effectively sold the soul of the Country by lying about a referendum on the European Constitution.

Even though we are not in the Euro, it would not suprise me if we ended up helping to bail out the Greeks as well. The Euro deserves to fail and hopefully it eventually will. It was a dream that ended up being a nightmare and its corruption is only outshone by its ability to waste billions.

Thal

[ahinton]

What a thrilling, moving and ultimately overbearing (in all the best senses) work Mahler's Sixth Symphony is! How it makes the euro problems, the Brown issues, the risks attaching to not bewaring of Greeks soliciting gifts (or loans), the British electoral instabilities and uncertainties and all the rest look so very, very tiny! (I just heard that symphony tonight in a BBC broadcast from Manchester as played rather well by BBC PO / Noseda).

If that sounds unduly like going off-topic, then so be it!

Best,

someone who could not, even at his best, aspire even to be the very tiniest of Mahlers...

[gep]

If that sounds unduly like going off-topic, then so be it!

Considering the general run of topics on this Forum, I would not mind too much!

someone who could not, even at his best, aspire even to be the very tiniest of Mahlers...]

Having seen the score of your Concerto for 22 Instruments, more specifically: the final pages of the 1st Movement, I am inclined to disagree!
That said, taking Mahler's Sixth as a whole, I would say this is among the very greatest symphonies ever. I'd be hard pressed to give symphonies going past this one, but the Ninth by the same composer would be a candidate. Bruckner's Ninth too. But besides those?

All best,
gep

[ahinton]

You may have (had) Brown; we've been having the "benefit" of the Euro for almost 10 years now. I doubt that Mr. Brown has been more expensive to the UK than the Euro would have been.

Had you observed at first hand the decimation of the British pension industry as well as a brace of other hopeless fiscal non-measures at his hands as Chancellor of the Exchequer, you would come to realise that Brown's record is not much better than that of Euroland. It's true that the very mixed economies of the Euroland nations is (and always was) bound to enhance the difficulties that the currency would have, but despite Brown having only one currency to mess up, he did us so proud by having gotten the country in such a parlous state during that Chancellorship that he decided to sell off a large tranche of the nation's gold reserves - and at a time when the price was low, too - and we're still massively in debt!

The Netherlands has recently put €5 BILLION into Greece due to that country's phantasy economy (but we are not to worry, we will be getting it back with 5% annual cummulative interest. Such will happen in the year that Easter and Christmas will fall on the same date), and just today I've heard Euro-land will make (how??) a reserve of almost half a TRILLION Euro's in case some other countries with, let us say, imaginative ways to do economy have various versions of shat hitting various fans. Oh, and the people here will face dire economic measures because of some economic crises, so we will need to tighten our expenses. Could become an interesting show, since we've got elections coming up. Rockhard promises made of hot butter, no doubt! "Believe me, trust me, have a little faith in me", and so on and so forth!

Well, the present Chancellor of the Exchequer has insisted that Britain will only get caught for a maximum of £8bn of that £500bn and even that only in the case of 100% default, so to that extent the outgoing Labour party here has been able to do something useful, even if in terms only of damage limitation; just as well, really, however, since Britain's own indebtedness would almost certainly cause it to default on any commitment much greater than that were it ever called upon to make one...

I heard an economist just last Friday who gives the Euro 5 most years at most.

I have heard several that question whether it will last out this year.

Whatever Brown did, at least he didn't bring you the blessings of the Euro. You may have Brown out, we're going to a blackout if things are left to rot more, which no doubt they will be.

We may well have the same, actually, since the problems of the indebtedness that I mentioned are now compounded for the time being by the instability that inevitably results from the uncertainties arising from there being no government sworn in five days after the General Election took place and the grave doubts that any coalition can be made to work for more than a few months at a time when there is so much work for a government to do that it will need more than a full term in office even to begin it. Of course we may hear today or tomorrow if the Liberal Democrats do agree to a coalition with the Conservatives (or, less likely, with Labour) but, if neither materialises, the only way a government could be sworn in this week would be if the Conservatives took the very risky decision to try to go it alone as a minority government and, so far, only the media - not the party itself - has speculated on that even less likely possibility. If all three options fail, there'll be only one thing to do - and it will look sufficiently bizarre as to deaden the already dwindling international confidence in Britain as a country capable even of electing a government, let alone benefitting from good strong one; this will be for Brown, an unelected Prime Minister and leader of a party that has suffered the worst losses in last week's election, to call another General Election after he has already announced his resignation! How's that going to look from anywhere outside Britain? What will be even worse still, however, is if a second General Election produces a similarly inconclusive result, for it will then be even harder for a coalition to be formed. I suspect that the sheer sense of desperation that such a scenario might pertain will alone be sufficient to force a coalition of some kind this time around, though the persistent question then will inevitably be "how long might it last?".

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Having seen the score of your Concerto for 22 Instruments, more specifically: the final pages of the 1st Movement, I am inclined to disagree!

Ah - very flattering of you to say so, I'm sure, but a mere handful of brief references to Mahler's Sixth Symphony do not a Mahler make, even when (as in this case) they hold contrapuntal hands with Schubert et moi!

That said, taking Mahler's Sixth as a whole, I would say this is among the very greatest symphonies ever. I'd be hard pressed to give symphonies going past this one, but the Ninth by the same composer would be a candidate. Bruckner's Ninth too. But besides those?

It would be very hard indeed to make out a case that argues with your assertion here. "Besides those?" Hmmm. Mahler's Tenth Symphony? Shostakovich's Fourth Symphony? Brian's Gothic Symphony? Brahms's Fourth Symphony? Bruckner's Eighth Symphony? I'm fast running out of other possible contenders...

At least we can say with certainty (on a thread whose topic I've not entirely forgotten) that Gordon Brown has not resigned as Labour party leader in order to spend more time writing symphonies!

Best,

Alistair

[gep]

Had you observed at first hand the decimation of the British pension industry

Which I haven't, of course. The pension fund I'm in (although considering how things are going here now I will possibly only get a pension if I live a Carter) managed to evaporate about 50% of its value (that is my and all other participant's money) in about one year, so to help themselves out they increased the fee by 100% (ie doubled it), so now I'm paying twice for my pension, once to get it and once more to get it back...
I trust that the same financial geniusses are at work in the UK and elsewhere, getting fat bonusses for their efforts.
Perhaps I should go to Greece and make sure I'm forced into pension at 53?

all best,
gep

[thalbergmad]

My God, imagine Gordon Brown as a composer.

Would be some of the dullest music in history.

Thal

[ahinton]

My God, imagine Gordon Brown as a composer.

Must we? Sorry for putting the idea into your head!

Would be some of the dullest music in history.

Indeed, the name "Gordon Telemann Brown" does trip off the tongue reasonably well, does it not? I doubt that he'd keep his copyright in it, preferring instead to give it away like he more or less gave British gold reserves and large swathes of his citizens' pensions away. Composers need imagination and an ability to invent; if the best that the unimaginative Gordon Brown could do was invent the Financial Services Authority, I cannot quite see him as a Mahler for our times. I cannot even imagine him writing for the bagpipes, let alone the banjo. The person I feel sorriest for is Sarah, assuming that he'll be spending more time at home once he gives up his rôle as the most unpopular unelected British Prime Monster in living memory.

Best,

Alistair

[gep]

Indeed, the name "Gordon Telemann Brown" does trip off the tongue reasonably well, does it not?

Telemann, if I am correct, held his post for over 40 years and was during that time among the most popular and well loved composers. Also, he was immensly productive. So, unless I've missed something important in the past thread, I somehow fail to see your point....

I'm imagining our dear, and also demissionar (for the 4th time of 4 in a row...) PM writing a piece of music... Hmm, something exeendingly longwindedly pompous, ponderous yet dull and dissonant. Hmmm, something on the line of Cage's ASlAP, but then more dull perhaps....

all best,
gep

[ahinton]

Telemann, if I am correct, held his post for over 40 years and was during that time among the most popular and well loved composers. Also, he was immensly productive. So, unless I've missed something important in the past thread, I somehow fail to see your point....

It's not a particularly important point at all - merely a way of saying that, for all his immense prolixity, Telemann's music was for the most part a great deal duller than that by one of his compatriots and near-contemporaries with which you might just happen to be familiar(!). Mind you, to go back briefly to Brown, you never know - he might just be capable of writing a Three-Party Invention or two...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

he might just be capable of writing a Three-Party Invention or two...

I would prefer it if he were to compose a canon.

Even better, to stand in front of one whilst it was being fired.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

The person I feel sorriest for is Sarah, assuming that he'll be spending more time at home once he gives up his rôle as the most unpopular unelected British Prime Monster in living memory.

I wonder if he is the only PM to actually be unelected twice??

I hear that the Lib Dems are now talking to Labour, so perhaps we will get another unelected PM.

Another election would at this point be pointless. There are still enough loafers, northern idiots, single mothers, drug addicts, other criminals & immigrants that would be prepared to vote Labour.

Thal

[oxy60]

No another election would not be pointless. If just enough people finally see the light, one party might just get a majority.

The only improvement I would suggest in the election system for the UK is to have a runoff of the top two candidates/parties.

Giving people too many choices/parties allows them to cling to subtleties of platform that will never be realized in elected government.

[thalbergmad]

YIPPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE he's gone.

We witness the final death of New Labour.

It is nice to have an English Prime Minister. Let us hope he serves us well.

Thal

[ahinton]

YIPPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE he's gone.

Poor Sarah.

We witness the final death of New Labour.

I thought that it had died some time ago - the "New" bit, that is; what will happen to the New new Labour under Harriet Mandelband Cruddas I have less than no idea.

It is nice to have an English Prime Minister. Let us hope he serves us well.

Since when was "Cameron" an "English" surname, pray?

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

I do not hold his name against him.

He was born in London, raised in Berkshire and educated at Eaton. That is English enough for me. I would have accepted Mugabe as Prime Minister if it meant getting Brown out and the end of New Labour.

Thal

[ahinton]

I do not hold his name against him.

And why should you? I didn't suggest otherwise, actually - merely pointed out its origins...

He was born in London, raised in Berkshire and educated at Eaton.

No - Eton, not Eaton.

That is English enough for me.

An English born and raised Scotsman educated at a major English public school makes him English enough for you. OK!

I would have accepted Mugabe as Prime Minister if it meant getting Brown out and the end of New Labour.

Mugabe's "English", too? Your determination to rid the universe of Broon is - er - quite remarkable! Spare a thought for Mrs Broon. It can't be a very happy day for her.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

No - Eton, not Eaton.

Understandable mistake as Cameron was a member of the Bullingdon Club.

Thal

[ahinton]

Understandable mistake as Cameron was a member of the Bullingdon Club.

Sure - there's no "a" in Bullingdon, so I take your point.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Dave is officially in.

Labour officially out.

Thal

[ahinton]

Dave is officially in.

Labour officially out.

Thal

...is officially where, exactly? We should be told!

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Indeed, we should be told and we will be told.

Thal

[ahinton]

Indeed, we should be told and we will be told.

Indeed, but, since you must be the teller (not at the bank, you understand), you must be the one to tell us when we shall be told, as well as what it is that we shall be told.

Over to you, Sir Thaliban Tellerman (not Telemann)...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

No time tonight. Giving the World Premier of the Spindler Piano Concerto.

Thal