Are you a "hand waver"?

[lelle]

I have always been curious why certain pianists seem to lift their hands as high above the keyboard as they can whenever there is an opportunity. It almost looks like they are trying to wave to or catch the attention of somebody in front of them.

Example (I didn't like the performance but I picked it for his hand movements, which are not as extensive as some I have seen but still...):

If you engage in this behaviour, I am very curious to hear why  . Or if you don't but know/have an idea about the reasons for it, post ahead!

Personally I find it quite bizarre. It doesn't add anything to the performance, it looks ridicolous, it increases the chances of hitting the wrong keys, and to me I can imagine that it makes the performance worse by putting some of your focus away from the keyboard into aspects that doesn't have anything to do with the musicality of the piece. If you handle the technique well, shouldn't all your efforts go into making the performance as musical as possible?

[berniano]

I don't really find it distracting at all. My understanding is that he's using arm weight to get the powerful sound needed for this piece. Gravity assists the arm and hand to make the sound.

Very passionate performance!!!

[birba]

Before I looked at the tape I thought you were referring to something like Rubenstein's theatrics when he performed the sabre danse as an encore.  But, here, Lugansky's hands weren't particularly jumping up high.  It was a marvelous performance, and the forte needed here required falling from a certain heighth.  and if it's a free fall and not a "banging" fall, the sound is fuller and not harsh.

[lelle]

yes that was what I was referring to but when I needed a good video this was the only thing I could find :/ I mean what do you search for? "Lifting hands at the piano"? 

[richard black]

If you play big chords that fast and that loud, it's less effort to let the hands come up after each chord than keeping them down.

[hansscherff]

If you play big chords that fast and that loud, it's less effort to let the hands come up after each chord than keeping them down.

I think we all agree this video of Lugansky is not the best example given to prove lelle's point. I do think we all know what he/she is talking about however, lifting of the arms for aesthetic purposes or to show the audience one is emotionally connected to the music. This age-old discussion will never reach a general consensus.

Myself, i hate (in my eyes) physical over-expressiveness especially when it comes with arm gestures and 'weird' faces. But i guess thats everybody's own cup of tea.

Hans

[birba]

I agree with you!  I can't stand those phony effects.  (Except Rubenstein was quite endearing when he played the khachaturian encore)  But this video has nothing to do with histrionics, as lelle thinks.

[gyzzzmo]

I have to admit i do this myself too.
It is not something pianists do consiously, it is more like being very 'into the music' wich results into that tendency to physically express that what's in the mind.

Alot of people do flap around with their hands and have weird face expressions when they talk. I suppose that is abit the same thing.

Gyzzzmo

[quantum]

To play devils advocate:  on the other extreme there are pianists who seem to have a total physical disconnect with the music.  Instead of hand waving they approach the piano as if nothing special was going to happen, play as if they were filling out their tax return, and finish as if the only thing on their mind is to get away from the piano and do something else.


Great Scriabin vid BTW.

[maestro1987]

I tend to wave hands, especcially when playing forte but it's unconscious and probably nobody does it intentionally (except Lang Lang). It shows that one feels safe with the piano and the piece, plus helps to relax. Futhermore, in addition to auditory pleasure I prefer to see how pianist feels the music.

[alessandro]

I'm a bit of a "hand-waver" and I blow sometimes kisses, but I don't at the piano.   I sometimes get remarks that I do some grimacing at the piano, but that's not on purpose.   I think it (the grimacing) goes with the performance.  It is in the end of course something that is not totally 'explainable', but it comes along with the intention to communicate for example 'your vision' of the piece.   Even if it's not a vision, but just a certain mood, I'm absolutely part of the 'school' that needs a lot of concentration before the attack.   Really, if I'm at home and want to play a piece, a can start the first measure four-five times again, and still be not satisfied with what I'm hearing.   I can't play like that (to take a popular example) Moonlight of Pathétique without a like ten-fifteen seconds of focus before hitting the first note.  That's my explanation for the facial expression.   Now the movement of the hand together with facial expression is maybe well illustrated in this link and the next one (there must exist better and more "explicite" footage, but I think Bozghanov is wonderful example of performing with the involvement of the body)

I'm a big fan of this pianist.  He is so unique, so "free", so stubborn in what he's doing, so compromise-less.  And I think I can share with him the idea that the whole body is really involved in pianoplaying.   There is a lot to be said and unsaid about energy.   Where does that energy come from.  A deal from gravity, from out of the ground, throught the bench and the belly through our arms.  I personally can't separate mind and body, or mind and energy to be more precise.  But I really don't know how it exactly works.  (There must also be a part of the energy coming out of the universe, no ?)  So, I think the body movements is for a tiny bit of course a choice, everybody can play in a certain way just with moving fingers, arms an torso, theoretically.  But if you really want to produce music, every fiber is involved, we should not find it weird, for me it's really normal.

To play devils advocate:  on the other extreme there are pianists who seem to have a total physical disconnect with the music.  Instead of hand waving they approach the piano as if nothing special was going to happen, play as if they were filling out their tax return, and finish as if the only thing on their mind is to get away from the piano and do something else

Absolutely.  And I'm quite sure, that those are not the best performances one could hear.

Maybe a little weird comparison ; when I cook for family and friends, the whole kitchen is really a mess (that's what my friend says).  I can cope with that.  It's just like that, I only hope that the dish is enjoyed.   And yes, I try to cook wisely, not to throw too much away, slice fruit and vegetables thinly, keep the bits that are left over for the day after 'tomorrow' etcetera, not to spoil ingredients.   But yes, the kitchen can be a mess.  

So, the handwaving, for me, goes along.   You think as a musician to give the best.   And even if it looks sometimes exaggerated, I myself, just try to enjoy what I'm hearing and not what it looks like.

Kind greeting to you all.

[gyzzzmo]

Who cares anyway if somebody does funny faces or dances the mambo while playing piano. The only thing that (should) matter is the sound  he manages to get out of the piano.

[go12_3]

Each piantist have their own distinctive style of playing and when a concert pianist
performs, at times the hands are lifted up into the air for the drama of the piece, I think....
Also, to produce the sound of a chord in forte.  I don't do the hand lifting or waving...
I'd prefer to keep my fingers go-lightly up and down the keyboard   

[mcdiddy1]

I have always been curious why certain pianists seem to lift their hands as high above the keyboard as they can whenever there is an opportunity. It almost looks like they are trying to wave to or catch the attention of somebody in front of them.

Example (I didn't like the performance but I picked it for his hand movements, which are not as extensive as some I have seen but still...):

If you engage in this behaviour, I am very curious to hear why  . Or if you don't but know/have an idea about the reasons for it, post ahead!

Personally I find it quite bizarre. It doesn't add anything to the performance, it looks ridicolous, it increases the chances of hitting the wrong keys, and to me I can imagine that it makes the performance worse by putting some of your focus away from the keyboard into aspects that doesn't have anything to do with the musicality of the piece. If you handle the technique well, shouldn't all your efforts go into making the performance as musical as possible?

I do that for musical effect. There are times when you want a sharp clear sound and that comes from lifting the fingers very quickly form the keys. Some times you also have to get to a very far away chord and many times the fastest way is by jumping on the keyboard.  I think this perfromer is trying to capture the same musical effects. Every movement has a reason behind it. There are some performers who I feel are overly emotive like Lang Lang personally. But there is a musical reason for that technique.

[lostinidlewonder]

When I was younger I flew all over the keyboard I still laugh when I see videos of myself playing back then. Now I am quite boring and hardly move at all. I feel it from within rather than from the hands, unnecessary movements are silly and only make us think that we are creating the music. Some people like to conduct their music physically with their mannerisms, facial gestures big arm movements what have you. To me it is music playing you not you playing the music.

Some people do over exaggerated gestures as an entertainment quirk to their presentation, it is done on purpose, some of us know some famous concert pianists who are like this and some of us even get very irritated by it. However I know for example of one performer who can't control themselves due to illness and make all sorts of funny sounds and talking and breathing while playing sometimes louder than the music itself! People remember him because of it more so than other performers, I guess doing lavish gestures while you play tries to attract your audiences attention, personally I think if you talk to your audience (before playing!) this is better  "bait" to reel them over to your side with.

[dtao12]

I can't surmise why others do it. I probably do it some. When there is a lot of force or percussiveness, it certainly helps you get the velocity ("gravity" as someone said). Or it's just part of the individual personality -- e.g., some pianists move their upper bodies or even legs more than others, and conductors vary widely in their movements. I'm thankful for the range of expressions that artists have in performing. I agree in general w. gyzzzmo that the most important thing is the music that they make.

There could be another reason: to relax and stretch the arm or wrists. I find that when I get "locked in" to the same position, I can get stiff and tense, which is bad for me. Anything to vary the arm/wrist/hand position can be helpful, and of course I'd want it to make sense with the music. (You wouldn't want to make a big gesture with a quiet piece like Claire de Lune, but you're not likely to need to relax/stretch in a piece like that anyway). So I'd give Lugansky (and ther others unnamed) the benefit of the doubt, that they have their reasons as to why their physical movements help them achieve the musicality they're striving for. Yes there's increased risk of missing the note if you attack from afar, but every performer is faced with the challenge of "playing it safe" vs. "going all out" and I appreciate those who are willing to take the risks.

Re Lugansky, I saw him recently perform Rach 3 and thought he was fabulous. Wasn't at all distracted by his movements and he was quite accurate.

[lelle]

When I was younger I flew all over the keyboard I still laugh when I see videos of myself playing back then. Now I am quite boring and hardly move at all. I feel it from within rather than from the hands, unnecessary movements are silly and only make us think that we are creating the music. Some people like to conduct their music physically with their mannerisms, facial gestures big arm movements what have you. To me it is music playing you not you playing the music.

Some people do over exaggerated gestures as an entertainment quirk to their presentation, it is done on purpose, some of us know some famous concert pianists who are like this and some of us even get very irritated by it. However I know for example of one performer who can't control themselves due to illness and make all sorts of funny sounds and talking and breathing while playing sometimes louder than the music itself! People remember him because of it more so than other performers, I guess doing lavish gestures while you play tries to attract your audiences attention, personally I think if you talk to your audience (before playing!) this is better  "bait" to reel them over to your side with.

This is essentially what I was trying to say wiht my first post, glad that someone agrees 

[pianisten1989]

Well.. There are atleast 3 reasons to lift, and move, your arms:
1. To not get tensed. If you can't move, then you're obviously not free.
2. To repeat a note, or chord (or basically any other technical difficulty). It's clearly way easier to repeat tones if you "bounce" on the key, instead of gripping it, or whatever you try to do.
3. For show. Some ppl likes it, some don't.

[sashaco]

I just watched Barenboim on u-tube playing Beethoven 110.  In the arias, and a bit in the recitative, he raises his hands considerably in very slow soft sections.  It seemed to me that he did it in order physically to feel that although the breaths are long, the melody has continuity, energy is preserved from one phrase to the next. 
I have certainly seen people play with embarrasing theatrics, but I don't think one can generalize and proclaim all apparently non-essential movement grotesque.

Sasha Cooke

[pianoplayjl]

well if you are playing very loud chords then of course you would lift your arms to get the maximum effect and volume possible.

[mcrosbie]

Who cares anyway if somebody does funny faces or dances the mambo while playing piano. The only thing that (should) matter is the sound  he manages to get out of the piano.

I agree with you.  The downside of television and videos and live performances is that people can allow themselves to be distracted by the facial expressions and body movements of the musician.  I think it is up to the listener to look away from the musician if they are distracted or bothered by their body language.  This is one reason why Glenn Gould left the stage. However, he did do a lot of television productions.  He lost himself in the music and was criticized by some for his odd mannerisms, but again, most had to acknowledge his musicality. He told interviewers that he wished he could stop his habit of singing along while he played, but he found it very difficult to stop. 

I don't think it is fair to assume that the musician who makes "faces' is doing it on purpose, although some may be doing things for attention.  It's hard to say.

[pianoplayjl]

Maybe some are physically expressing their thoughts on the piece.

[ahinton]

The question of distraction is a twofold one; distraction of members of the audience at a live performance and distraction of the artist him/herself (and this, of course, applies not only in the case of pianists but all instrumentalists).

Observing Rakhmaninov, Pollini, Michelangeli and others play in what might to some seem to be a detached manner because of their sheer economy of movement at the piano, one is impressed by uncommonly few physical gestures that might risk getting in the way of what's being performed. In developing a performing manner that eschews as far as possible all physical movements at the instrument other than those that are directly germane to the matter at hand - i.e. producing the sounds - the performer likewise limits the risk of his/her own physical distractions from what is already a nerve-wracking and challenging thing to do.

I remember once discussing this subject with Sorabji and managed, quite exceptionally, to focus his attention on a particular example in one of his own works, the Third Piano Sonata, whose final cataclysmic pages grow into an extended sequence of large rapid chords at a very high dynamic level which it would be well-nigh impossible to reproduce as written unless the more customary deployment of upper arm and forearm weight be channelled as far as possible into the fingers, because there is simply insufficient time to flex the wrists or raise and lower the forearms in order to generate the requisite physical power at the prescribed speed; Sorabji demonstrated the problem - and his perceived solution to it - at the piano, at necessarily reduced speed in order to illustrate both, flexing only the fingers and thumbs at the first joint and relying far less than usual upon movement of the wrists and forearms.

It might therefore be interesting to glance through large parts of scores such as Finnissy's English Country-Tunes and Piano Concerto No. 4 or Sorabji's Symphonic Variations and Piano Sonata No. 5 for the purpose of observing that some music almost precludes the possibility of extraneous physical movements at the piano purely by virtue of the demands that it makes on the physique of the player.

OK - the above examples admittedly relate more to matters of sheer practicality than to the kind of phenomenon under discussion here in which pianists throw their arms about or grimace in "expressive" ways that may be dictated to them, consciously or subconsciously, by the music but which nevertheless form no part of the composer's intentions in communicating with the listener; I think, however, that it does serve to illustrate one context in which the demands made by the music are such that there's simply little or no room for indulgence in such extraneous physical expressions.

What we're therefore up against here, I think, might arise from arguments about the extent to which one might go to "see", rather than "hear", a pianist performing - and why.

Best,

Alistair

[rmbarbosa]

Once, I saw Rubinstein in Lisbon twice in the same week. He played a piece of Chopin with his hands falling over the keyboard like birds; next day, his hands were peacefully on the keyboard. Sound was exactly the same...
As I`m a human being and human beings dont fly, I prefer to play without histrionics gestures. Elegance also requires restraint.

[pianoplayjl]

It's just a matter of artistic licence isn't it?

[Derek]

I've always found it a little obnoxious, at least when done by men. It looks kind of girly to me. On the other hand, I can imagine practicing such movements to aid in timing and "feeling" the music as you are playing it. I'm sure I make funny gestures when I play as well; I'm just unaware of them since I play only for myself.

[pianoplayjl]

well, making hand gestures help you to communicate with the audience and helps you to feel the music and get into it.

[ahinton]

well, making hand gestures help you to communicate with the audience and helps you to feel the music and get into it.

I am far more inclined to believe that doing this actually risks distracting the audience from the matter at hand - listening to and concentrating on the music that the pianist is playing. It's the same problem even in the field of conducting where, although one's entire physique has to be brought into service, it remains the case that he conductor has no need to make movements that are not precisely germane to the business of eliciting the results that he/she is seeking; again, one doesn't attend an orchestral performance for the principal purpose of seeing the conductor conduct (unless as part of one's education as a conductor), however interesting his/her methods may be. If one wants to attend a live performance to observe the physical movements of the performers, it is surely wiser to attend a dance performance where this is what it's all about.

If it was good enough for luminaries of the order of Rakhmaninov and Michelangeli to move as economically as possible while playing, it's surely so for other pianists, so please let's leave the hand-waving to the traffic police, where it is at least intended to serve a useful practical purpose.

Best,

Alistair

[pianoplayjl]

Maybe even you  are subconsciously doing it. On some rare occasions I'm like that.

[ahinton]

Maybe even you  are subconsciously doing it. On some rare occasions I'm like that.

I fear not; I am a composer, not a pianist! I do not, of course, compose in front of an audience and, in any case, any hand-waving in which I might indulge while writing (it's usually hand-wringing rather than hand-waving, actually) would hardly impress anyone even if I did (after all, watching a composer compose must surely be more boring even than watching paint dry).

That said, I do accept that some pianists who do this kind of thing do it subconsciously rathen that as consiously contrived gestures.

Best,

Alistair

[pianoplayjl]

whoops not saying you subconsciously do it but other people like me.

[keyboardkat]

well if you are playing very loud chords then of course you would lift your arms to get the maximum effect and volume possible.

No, you wouldn't.   Coming down from a height onto the keys creates a harsh, ugly sound, as well as interfere with your accuracy.  What creates volume?   It isn't how hard you hit the keys, it's the speed of the hammer.   When Horowitz produced his tremendous fortissimos, you wouldn't actually see him do anything.   The force came from his back and went directly through his arms into the fingers and into the keys.  This is how you create volume without banging.

Remember, up and down motion slows you down, and wastes energy.  NOTHING you do up in the air over the keyboard has any effect on what comes out!

[ahinton]

No, you wouldn't.   Coming down from a height onto the keys creates a harsh, ugly sound, as well as interfere with your accuracy.  What creates volume?   It isn't how hard you hit the keys, it's the speed of the hammer.   When Horowitz produced his tremendous fortissimos, you wouldn't actually see him do anything.   The force came from his back and went directly through his arms into the fingers and into the keys.  This is how you create volume without banging.

Remember, up and down motion slows you down, and wastes energy.  NOTHING you do up in the air over the keyboard has any effect on what comes out!

Very good sense here - although I'm not so confident as you appear to be that this in practice meant, in Horowitz's case, that he avoided banging on occasion, although the principle of what you write in entirely correct. If we're talking here momentarily about the production of sheer volume, two pianists that most immediately spring to mind here are John Ogdon and Ronald Stevenson, the former's frame being as large as the latter's is small; I have enjoyed the privilege of watching each of them play at relatively close quarters on a number of occasions and, even when producing the most overwhelming multiple fortissimo (when the music demands that), there was very little visible physical movement that you'd associate with the production of those massive sounds, because each pianist was particularly well versed in the gentle art of weight distribution in terms of how the relevant muscles are deployed. As to the fact that upward and downward motion slows the activity down and wastes energy, as you correctly observe, the Sorabji example that I cited above proves this beyond question.

Best,

Alistair

[keyboardkat]

Thanks for your input.   With regard to pianists being large or small, remember that Horowitz was a short man, and was slightly built.   We remember him as the piano powerhouse he was, especially when he was young, but he was no Burt Reynolds!

On the other had, Rachmaninoff stood 6'4" and had hands that could stretch a 14th or 15th.   He could finger a chord C-E-G-C-E, bottom to top, 2-3-1-4-5!   He used to complain that his hugh hands got in his own way.

[pianoplayjl]

Even though horowitz may be short, that doesn't stop him from having huge span, a 12th. Rachmaninoff was tall, but he spanned only a 13th.