Chopin's pedal marks

[keyboardclass]

I guess it was technically not possible to place it where it should be.

Have you any examples?

[pianowolfi]

Well look in all the editions you want, it's not possible to place the Ped. and the asterix without having them overlap each other.

whereas if you write the modern line _______^______   it's possible to place that ^ exactly where you want it.

[stevebob]

But it is possible to use successive Ped. signs without asterisks to indicate legato/syncopated pedaling.  This was never adopted or employed with consistency, unfortunately, as an engraving convention by publishers.  (I mentioned this point much earlier in the thread.)

I've seen this practice on occasion, though.  In fact, the Friedheim edition of Chopin's etudes is an interesting amalgam of formats for pedal indications.  The familiar pairing of Ped. and * predominates where it's clear that intermittent use of pedal is being specified; it's generally supplemented with the more modern-style lines and wedges to indicate continuous legato pedaling, and the Ped. symbol sans asterisk is also routinely employed for this purpose throughout Op. 10 Nos. 1 and 10; Op. 25 Nos. 1, 3, 11 and 12; and Trois Nouvelles No. 1 (and occasionally elsewhere).

Such thoughtful and easily grasped pedaling suggestions are just one of the reasons why Arthur Friedheim's edition of the etudes has long been my favorite.  (The most important other consideration for me is, of course, his plentiful, elegant, comfortable and intuitive fingerings.  And I make no apology for my interest in, and frequent reliance upon, the pedaling and fingering recommendations of master editors!)  I wish Friedheim had edited the works of other composers and the other genres of Chopin's compositions, but Rafael Joseffy effectively reaches the same standard for me.

[lostinidlewonder]

Thanks for letting me know I'm welcome to my opinion!  Even if judgments about behavior and ethics are subjective, I think it's an informed opinion based on evidence.  There are abundant examples of you attempting to belittle, demean or discredit others in this very thread.  You might maintain that’s not your intention, but you can’t claim you haven’t been made aware of it.

Again it is only your opinion and it is your opinion that you have evidence. I have helped more people on pianostreet than what you have done. I could gather hundreds of names who have personally messaged me on here and discussed many fantastic piano subjects with. You on the other hand have certainly contributed to your ideological stances on me personally, but failed to ever consider pianistic concepts without putting your personal issues with it.

Perhaps “musical ideology” is a term of art that’s beyond my ken, but I don’t know how it could possibly be beneficial to me.  I don’t think that rigid adherence to dogma or doctrinaire attitudes is in my interest.  It’s obvious you feel differently, as from our exchange after you wrote, “I teach my students to ignore the pedal markings unless they need it (like the fingering suggestions included in some scores).”  Recall that my comment and your riposte were as follows:

If you have no ideology then you are merely a fence sitter, someone who has no view on things, who has no opinion, and is unwilling to put their neck out and make a stance on issues. You have an extravagant will to express your ideology about other PEOPLE, it seems to me completely strange that you do not apply the same to Music. Do I care about this? Absolutely not! I couldn't care less about your life!

You fail to use my quote to highlight anything about me. zzzzz was in response to something that was rude to me (not that I took it rude I just looked at it for what it is worth)
Whatever you say online I do not take  personally, there are a lot more dramas in my life that merely writing on a forum (I enjoy posting on the internet a great deal, it is an enjoyment no matter what is being talked about). Maybe for your life this is where you learn about conflict. I am merely responding to what is being said and am quite happy to see responses with no emotion attached.

When I say YOU I do not mean YOU personally, it is a general you. Because of that is highlights a generalize concept which should not inspire thoughts of insult. You still have merely quoted me and not highlighted how I have been insulting. It is because there is nothing insulting in it but it provokes one to think about their methodology. What is wrong about thinking about it? Would you rather simply continue what you do your whole life never thinking about different ways? Thats up to you, but then it is you who is being paranoid if you insist that any changes to the way you do things is being devious.

It’s hard for me to understand the entitlement, empowerment and/or lack of self-awareness that impel such a perspective and communication style.  If it’s all a manifestation of “musical ideology,” I definitely don’t want any of that.

That is because it is YOU who has created this imaginary scene. Its not my interest to clear up any delusions online, 1) I don't care about you personally 2) I don't care about reputation online. The only reason why I bother to respond to people on pianostreet now and then is to just highlight how people talk CRAP on here and when you actually test them they really have no basis.

[stevebob]

Again it is only your opinion and it is your opinion that you have evidence. I have helped more people on pianostreet than what you have done. I could gather hundreds of names who have personally messaged me on here and discussed many fantastic piano subjects with. You on the other hand have certainly contributed to your ideological stances on me personally, but failed to ever consider pianistic concepts without putting your personal issues with it.
If you have no ideology then you are merely a fence sitter, someone who has no view on things, who has no opinion, and is unwilling to put their neck out and make a stance on issues. You have an extravagant will to express your ideology about other PEOPLE, it seems to me completely strange that you do not apply the same to Music. Do I care about this? Absolutely not! I couldn't care less about your life!

You fail to use my quote to highlight anything about me. zzzzz was in response to something that was rude to me (not that I took it rude I just looked at it for what it is worth)
Whatever you say online I do not take  personally, there are a lot more dramas in my life that merely writing on a forum (I enjoy posting on the internet a great deal, it is an enjoyment no matter what is being talked about). Maybe for your life this is where you learn about conflict. I am merely responding to what is being said and am quite happy to see responses with no emotion attached.

When I say YOU I do not mean YOU personally, it is a general you. Because of that is highlights a generalize concept which should not inspire thoughts of insult. You still have merely quoted me and not highlighted how I have been insulting. It is because there is nothing insulting in it but it provokes one to think about their methodology. What is wrong about thinking about it? Would you rather simply continue what you do your whole life never thinking about different ways? Thats up to you, but then it is you who is being paranoid if you insist that any changes to the way you do things is being devious.
That is because it is YOU who has created this imaginary scene. Its not my interest to clear up any delusions online, 1) I don't care about you personally 2) I don't care about reputation online. The only reason why I bother to respond to people on pianostreet now and then is to just highlight how people talk CRAP on here and when you actually test them they really have no basis.

Vasa inania multum strepunt.

Believe me, I know when people talk crap in forums!  I like to test their credibility as well, as I did when I questioned you about those "many lesser" editions with their drunk editors.

I honestly hope you'll seek and get the help you need.

[lostinidlewonder]

Tau soot do kaswee hang, du toh do koong bang bang.

You just must hate me because I respond to everything you say about me.

If I talk crap please feel free to browse through 6 years of posts and the huge amount of help I have provided this community. Have I got a big head? No, I am here to help, that is my reason for being here.

[stevebob]

You just must hate me because I respond to everything you say about me.

If I talk crap please feel free to browse through 6 years of posts and the huge amount of help I have provided this community. Have I got a big head? No, I am here to help, that is my reason for being here.

That's great!  And now you shouldn't hesitate to get help.

[lostinidlewonder]

That's great!  And now you shouldn't hesitate to get help.

If this "help" is your way of saying that you think I am psychotic and mentally unstable that is fine for you to think this. If this provokes you to avoid responding to my posts, even better!

[stevebob]

If this "help" is your way of saying that you think I am psychotic and mentally unstable that is fine for you to think this. If this provokes you to avoid responding to my posts, even better!

[lostinidlewonder]

Yay I finally got a smile from you ^_____^


in the end music is as various as other arts such as painting or dancing etc etc. We all have a different approach and methodology, perhaps some are better than others but that is not important. What is important is that you use what works for you and that inspires you to constantly improve. Most of what I say is only what I have found works in the years of teaching piano to hundreds of people. These are not just ideas that pop in my head and are untested, I hope to share a lot more of my ideas over the years, but this is not to say that my ideas are better than anyone elses, I have seen progress in my students which they themselves admit is much faster than any other teacher they had, which prompts me to believe that my method is not just average (I have always held my teaching craft in highest regard in my own head, one must do so if they run their own teaching business, your product is the best there is out there, without that confidence you never expand your business).

[keyboardclass]

Well look in all the editions you want, it's not possible to place the Ped. and the asterix without having them overlap each other

No, I'm referring to the first editions.  I've yet to find a single example where it's unclear - can you point one out?

[pianowolfi]

No, I'm referring to the first editions.  I've yet to find a single example where it's unclear - can you point one out?

Well for instance here in Prelude op. 28 No 4, M. 17/18

https://chopin.lib.uchicago.edu/gsdl/cgi-bin/library?e=d-000-00---0chopin--00-0-0-0prompt-10---4---Document---0-1l--1-en-Zz-1---50-home---001-001-1-0utfZz-8-0&a=d&cl=CL3.12.1&d=CHOP372.12

[lostinidlewonder]

Don't play the game!! omg, now your in a trap

[pianowolfi]

Don't play the game!! omg, now your in a trap

Hee hee 

But I must say, I really enjoy these first editions online.

[keyboardclass]

Well for instance here in Prelude op. 28 No 4, M. 17/18

https://chopin.lib.uchicago.edu/gsdl/cgi-bin/library?e=d-000-00---0chopin--00-0-0-0prompt-10---4---Document---0-1l--1-en-Zz-1---50-home---001-001-1-0utfZz-8-0&a=d&cl=CL3.12.1&d=CHOP372.12

Seems quite clear you take the pedal off just as you play beat 3 - notice Wessel does the same.  What's interesting is if the asterix was on beat 3 Chopin would be asking for a 'bluring'.  By the way, thanks for being rational!

[pianowolfi]

Here is one example of a "special effect" pedal mark, which you need to translate if you play it on a modern piano: (Measure 1)

https://chopin.lib.uchicago.edu/gsdl/cgi-bin/library?e=d-000-00---0chopin--00-0-0-0prompt-10---4---Document---0-1l--1-en-Zz-1---50-home---001-001-1-0utfZz-8-0&a=d&cl=CL3.12.1&d=CHOP372.20

btw I don't get why everybody plays quintuplets here istead of a triplet and two sixteenths. It's clear that Chopin would have written quintuplets, had he intended them.

[keyboardclass]

does your triplets but no pedal!

[pianowolfi]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM88FGIyIuA does your triplets but no pedal!

Interesting interpretation! Very dancy, almost like a mazurka. I like it actually

[keyboardclass]

I think my hero does it right but also afraid of the pedal!

[pianowolfi]

I think my hero does it right but also afraid of the pedal!

In my opinion no. But of course I respect him.
No 12 is another example of a pedalling indication you can't do without unintended blurring on modern pianos.

[keyboardclass]

I don't see where No. 10's a problem with bluring.  What the performances I've scanned through lack is pedaling through to the end of the beat.  I know what you're saying though and it's 20th century ears that are your problem.  We like our piano pure.  No doubt the odd clavichord and harpsichord were still around in Chopin's day - he would have been used to a far messier tone.

[keyboardclass]

Had to break out the vinyl.  Cortot, as usual, not following the score.  Moura Lympany does the pedal just right!  Hold on, if you speak nicely to me I might make you an mp3!

[pianowolfi]

I don't see where No. 10's a problem with bluring.  What the performances I've scanned through lack is pedaling through to the end of the beat.  I know what you're saying though and it's 20th century ears that are your problem.  We like our piano pure.  No doubt the odd clavichord and harpsichord were still around in Chopin's day - he would have been used to a far messier tone.

Clavichord and harpsichord have a very clear tone. And no pedal. But they are anyway completely unsuitable to Chopin.

[pianowolfi]

Had to break out the vinyl.  Cortot, as usual, not following the score.  Moura Lympany does the pedal just right!  Hold on, if you speak nicely to me I might make you an mp3!

*speaks nicely to keyboardclass* 

[keyboardclass]

There https://www.box.net/shared/jeczgbgdjo that didn't take long did it?  Perfect pedaling notice - to the end of the beat, not clipped.  You won't like the triplets (or lack of thereof).

[pianowolfi]

There https://www.box.net/shared/jeczgbgdjo that didn't take long did it?  Perfect pedaling notice - to the end of the beat, not clipped.  You won't like the triplets (or lack of thereof).

Thanks
Well I don't think she takes the pedal as indicated, I think she has adapted it.

[gyzzzmo]

Blurring doesnt have to be wrong or doesnt have to be avoided. Neither is one way of performing the 'perfect way'. Pedalling completely depends on the performer's style/interpretation and if you give a concert, you dont perform the composer's writing, but you perform your interpretation of it.

Hence my statement that you can pretty much ignore Chopin's(!) pedalmarkings, since you dont have to try to copy (or to figuring out) Chopins intentions (or the editors'). The performer creates the sound he likes, the pedalling has to be addapted to his choice.

Gyzzzmo

[keyboardclass]

Thanks
Well I don't think she takes the pedal as indicated, I think she has adapted it.

How?

Sorry Gyzz, that doesn't deserve an answer.  You realize you propose ignoring directions from piano's greatest genius and regarding his own compositions no less.  Sheesh!

[gyzzzmo]

How?

Sorry Gyzz, that doesn't deserve an answer.  You realize you propose ignoring directions from piano's greatest genius and regarding his own compositions no less.  Sheesh!

So you say we should copy Rachmaninov's exact way of performing (I take Rach as an example since we have his recordings) and any other way of performance is wrong? 'Sheesh'

[keyboardclass]

So you say we should copy Rachmaninov's exact way of performing (I take Rach as an example since we have his recordings) and any other way of performance is wrong? 'Sheesh'

You should no more take liberties with a Rachmaninoff score than you would with a Chopin.

[gyzzzmo]

You should no more take liberties with a Rachmaninoff score than you would with a Chopin.

You are wrong. You claimed to be a teacher of a 'keyboard class', and maybe that is the reason why you dont understand. You teach your students to study their sheets like crazy and they get your big smile when they do exactly what the sheet tells them.
However if once somebody is talented enough to earn money with the piano and perform, you have/get a whole different approach to the music and have every right to do whatever you want to musically do with the music. And that means adapting the pedalling to the sound/atmosphere you want to create. And a good teacher should encourage that once the technique is sufficient enough.

As a good classical performer you are not a copyist, you are an interpretationist. Those who can only copy become mediocre (or worse) teachers or end up playing in bars.

[stevebob]

Wow, Jizzzmo is such an iconoclast!  He gets to do whatever he wants!  Yippee!

[keyboardclass]

As a good classical performer you are not a copyist, you are an interpretationist. Those who can only copy become mediocre (or worse) teachers or end up playing in bars.

Interpreting is not rewriting - something you seem hell bent on!

[stevebob]

A case could be made, too, that it’s the amateur or even the dilettante playing in his own living room for fun who has “every right to do whatever he wants”—but that a paid professional has a greater responsibility to the music and to his audience.

“Hey, I’m so good that I get paid for this, so I have the right to do whatever I please!!!”  Right … as if getting paid is automatic evidence of talent or good taste anyway.

[keyboardclass]

...and the most tragic thing about it Gyzz is you miss the opportunity to get inside a great mind.  That's what it's all about!

[gyzzzmo]

It is funny that you people first compare and praise different interpretations and pedal usages from youtube video's, and if somebody else (me) says that different pedal usages depend on the interpretations, you disagree?

@Keyboardclass: Interpreting is not rewriting no, but there is alot of freedom in using pedalmarkings. Pedalmarkings are usually dubious of origin, if they are original they usually do not apply on pedalmechanics of these days and pedalling should be adapted to the sound the performer wants to create.

@Stevebob: With romantic music like Chopin's, you have indeed alot of freedom.

If you don't understand this, please go back to the student forum because you have nothing to post here. Keyboardclass' youtube video playing chopin, posted on another thread only confirms this more.

[keyboardclass]

Pedalmarkings are usually dubious of origin,

And this is what you've got stuck in your head!  The Chopin First Editions are far from dubious as a scan through any manuscript will attest.

[gyzzzmo]

And this is what you've got stuck in your head!  The Chopin First Editions are far from dubious as a scan through any manuscript will attest.

And ignoring the rest for your convenience?

[keyboardclass]

if they are original they usually do not apply on pedalmechanics of these days and pedalling should be adapted to the sound the performer wants to create.

No, re-create -  I want to hear Chopin not Gyzzzmo.

[pianowolfi]

I never heard Gyzzzmo yet 

[stevebob]

@Stevebob: With romantic music like Chopin's, you have indeed alot of freedom.

If you don't understand this, please go back to the student forum because you have nothing to post here.

Get over yourself and stop addressing people like they're idiots or children.

[cmg]

From Ludwig Bronarski and Jozef Turcyznski and their commentary on the Paderewski edition to Volume XI of the complete works of Chopin:

"Chopin's pedal-marking is usually careful, precise, and in certain places very delicate, sometimes producing entirely new pianistic effects (e.g. at the beginning of the Poloniaise-Fantasie).  Those passages in which Chopin has not marked the pedalling are generally explained by the fact that the pedalling required is very simple, and is therefore self-evident; or, on the contrary, that it is so subtle as to be too complicated, if not impossible, to indicate.  In any case, the use of the pedal is a very delicate and entirely individual mater, depending on many factors, such as instrument, touch, tempo or acoustic of the room.  For this reason, the Editorial Committee has decided to leave the pedalling as found in the original documents."

I think this is eminently common-sensical, and a necessary and intelligent response to the question, "how to interpret Chopin's pedal marks." 

Chopin, evidently, had more respect for his interpreters than we do.

[stevebob]

I think this is eminently common-sensical, and a necessary and intelligent response to the question, "how to interpret Chopin's pedal marks." 

Chopin, evidently, had more respect for his interpreters than we do.

I don’t disagree with anything in that familiar passage from the Paderewski editions of Chopin (or your assessment of it), but I reach a different conclusion about the evident meaning that should be inferred.  Those are the words of Messrs. Bronarski and Turczynski, after all, so I don’t think they tell us anything about how Chopin regarded interpretive freedom.

I would also note that while they concede pedaling to be an "entirely individual matter," there’s nothing in their advice to suggest that Chopin’s pedal marks can be disregarded or ignored.

[lostinidlewonder]

These relatively new members seems to like to debate but have little idea how to debate constructively. Why don't you actually talk about what other people are talking about instead of saying that you think it is wrong? What you THINK and KNOW are 2 completely different issues. It seems to me that some these newish members tends to THINK a lot but have little knowledge of what are the facts.

If someone thinks that music has to be ALWAYS  exactly as the composer wrote it then they are severely mistaken. Then you would find everyone playing pieces the same way, there would be no variation. But what do we find when we listen to professional recordings? It is amazing but each and everyone one of them sound different in their own way. Music is not maths.

[keyboardclass]

Music is not maths.

Funny enough the best musicians tend to be good mathematicians.  I think cmg's quote sums (talking about Maths) it up rather well.  They are quite clear - the starting point is Chopin's own pedaling.  Saying that, their edition I was looking at the other week had a facsimile of a manuscript - looking closely at their edit they'd missed out some pedal detail.  I think even they wouldn't believe their eyes!

[lostinidlewonder]

MUSIC IS NOT MATHS and has little connection to music unless you are looking at patterns. The exactness of piano as it is being discussed on this thread makes me think that people are thinking Maths.

[keyboardclass]

MUSIC IS NOT MATHS and has little connection to music unless you are looking at patterns.

What is music but patterns?

[lostinidlewonder]

But try to apply maths to give a proof to how Chopin wrote music and you will see no mathematical pattern but sections which are connected mathematically and others which are completely mutually exclusive.

[keyboardclass]

But try to apply maths to give a proof to how Chopin wrote music and you will see no mathematical pattern but sections which are connected mathematically and others which are completely mutually exclusive.

!? Lost me at the bakers.

[stevebob]

These relatively new members seems to like to debate but have little idea how to debate constructively. Why don't you actually talk about what other people are talking about instead of saying that you think it is wrong? What you THINK and KNOW are 2 completely different issues. It seems to me that some these newish members tends to THINK a lot but have little knowledge of what are the facts.

If someone thinks that music has to be ALWAYS  exactly as the composer wrote it then they are severely mistaken. Then you would find everyone playing pieces the same way, there would be no variation. But what do we find when we listen to professional recordings? It is amazing but each and everyone one of them sound different in their own way. Music is not maths.

Get over yourself and stop addressing people like they're idiots or children.