Chopin's pedal marks

[davepinto]

I'm new to this forum, and I'm sure there have been postings about Chopin's pedal marks, so forgive me if I'm trampling on old ground.

As everyone knows, Chopin uses the customary word "Ped" to mark Down Pedal, and the star symbol (*) to indicate Up Pedal. Well, when teaching my advanced college students, I often find the "literal minded" among them clipping the end of their phrases, assuming that they should release the damper exactly where Chopin puts the Up Pedal symbol.

So, I'm curious to know if anyone disagrees with the following assertion about Chopin's up pedal marks:

One should not necessarily release the damper pedal at the exact point of the Up Pedal. Very often, the Up Pedal should occur at the very next change of harmony (or phrase) after the Up Ped symbol. The necessity of this is particularly clear when there is a down pedal for a phrase that has a Left Hand jump bass with stacatto marks, and then at the end of the phrase, the Up Pedal is under the last note/chord...should one then play that last note/chord stacatto? Of course not!


David Pinto

[stevebob]

One might observe the older style pedal indications (e.g., in Chopin and elsewhere) and assume, if they were taken literally, that ‘legato pedaling’ was a relatively recent innovation.  I’m pretty sure it’s not; the damper pedal mechanism has been standardized for nearly 200 years, so the techniques and effects possible today would have been equally accessible (and similarly exploited) then as now.

I’ve always wondered why past engraving practice didn’t make plain that legato pedaling was called for by omitting the asterisk, in which case the Ped. would simply indicate a “change” of pedal.  (I have in fact encountered this on rare occasion, but it seems never to have been universally or consistently employed.)

As it stands, the inherent functional limitations of Ped. and “*” mean that a lot of common sense is called for.  After all, those marks can’t illustrate partial pedaling, partial release, gradual release or fluttering either.

I recommend Joseph Banowetz’s The Pianist’s Guide to Pedaling to anyone interested in pedal technique and its applications to repertoire.  (A number of composers are given detailed treatment, and Chopin certainly gets the attention he deserves.)  The entire book can be previewed at the website of its publisher, Indiana University Press, by anyone who creates an account there.

Other pianism-related titles are available at that site, too (and there’s no cost or obligation when registering), but I think most people would agree that the Banowetz book in particular will be more easily digested and navigated if you buy a hard copy.  Detailed, comprehensive in scope, easily understood and containing many musical examples, it may be the definitive guide to pedaling presently available.

[keyboardclass]

Don't dismiss Chopin's pedaling - it's genius!  Far too subtle even for 20th century interpreters.  Now that first editions are online you can bypass those idiot editors of the past who wouldn't believe their eyes.  https://chopin.lib.uchicago.edu/

[prongated]

Don't dismiss Chopin's pedaling - it's genius!

... I will look up the link you posted, but in the meantime...

Indeed there are certain spots like in the soft section of the 1st Ballade where there is a subtle pedal nuancing. For the most part however, there is just about no way one should follow Chopin's pedal markings literally on the modern piano! There are 2 reasons I have come across, from different kinds of musicians:

1. Chopin's piano at the time is one that has even less resonance than the one we have, and thus holding down the pedal for entire bar's length is not a problem for Chopin - in fact it creates a nice coloristic effect! Today, it will simply blur everything in the bar.
2. Chopin was never one who would always be inclined to indicate pedal markings, if it weren't for (most of) his students' inability to judge what the appropriate pedalling should be.

Whichever case you believe to be true, on the modern piano in Chopin's music, one needs to change pedal a lot more than the score indicates.

So...

One should not necessarily release the damper pedal at the exact point of the Up Pedal. Very often, the Up Pedal should occur at the very next change of harmony (or phrase) after the Up Ped symbol. The necessity of this is particularly clear when there is a down pedal for a phrase that has a Left Hand jump bass with stacatto marks, and then at the end of the phrase, the Up Pedal is under the last note/chord...should one then play that last note/chord stacatto? Of course not!

In the first place, one needs to change pedal a LOT more than the score indicates. Secondly, yes, 99.99% of the time one will need to change pedal after the next chord/harmony is played, not before or at the same time. That is really pedalling 101 and goes for just about any music in the classical repertory.

[davepinto]

Nice to see that many folks are being rational about this subject, and not taking the old style pedal marks completely literally... especially with Chopin's Up Pedal marks. I will look into the book that has been recommended.
David Pinto

[keyboardclass]

... I will look up the link you posted, but in the meantime...

When you do you'll find he uses less pedal, not more.

[prongated]

Don't dismiss Chopin's pedaling - it's genius!  Far too subtle even for 20th century interpreters.  Now that first editions are online you can bypass those idiot editors of the past who wouldn't believe their eyes.  https://chopin.lib.uchicago.edu/

When you do you'll find he uses less pedal, not more.

...

I cannot disagree more with you here. Just because the composer didn't specifically indicate "pedal" doesn't mean he didn't use it!

There are 2 scores that I checked; the Polonaise-Fantaisie and the Ballade no. 1. In the ballade, note where the first pedal marking occur - in fact, the only pedal marking in the page. Do you really think he would pedal only on that bar for the entire page? Also, the very opening is without pedal marking. Would Chopin really not pedal there, given it's marked forte and pesante? If anything, I'd like to think that his pedal indications are specifically for spots that require more care, or to create a particular effect (for example, emphasising rhythmic nuance in the place I cited in the soft lyrical section of the Ballade).

Even then, many of these markings are not appropriate on the modern piano. In the Polonaise-Fantaisie, try holding down the pedal for the entire E-flat octaves before the first polonaise entry on the modern piano, and the effect is totally different to that on the Pleyels of Chopin's time. In fact, in both the Ballade and Polonaise-Fantaisie, most of these specific pedal markings will blur the passages on the modern piano, hence pianists today pretty much disregarding Chopin's pedal markings. Works nicely on the Pleyel, though!

[keyboardclass]

Agreed.  I still maintain the Chopin used less than today's interpreters - they ride roughshod over his subtle markings.

[stevebob]

I think it goes without saying that prongated’s point is correct that pedaling instructions (whether of Chopin or composers and editors generally) aren’t intended to be comprehensive; one will likely to choose to pedal many passages where there’s no explicit direction to do so.

I also agree that it may be necessary to change the pedal more often on modern pianos to avoid the sonic blur that was likely less of an issue on early pianos with less resonance.

keyboardclass, I agree with you as well that oftentimes "less is more" when it comes to employing the damper pedal at all.  It’s so common for performers to pedal throughout by default pretty much all music from the Romantic era forward.  I was actually surprised at prongated’s example of Chopin’s Ballade Op. 23, but pedaling even the Largo introduction demonstrates this point.  It’s so easy to play that entire unison passage with a controlled legato that it would never occur to me to use pedal there, and I don’t really understand what the reason for it (or the intended purpose) would be.

Maybe my ear has been conditioned by my learning style, though.  Except for passages that I’m certain will require pedaling and in which the changes of harmony are completely transparent, I don’t use pedal while learning the notes of a piece.  I wait until it is fairly secure, and then experiment with the effects I can get from applying pedal.  Perhaps because I’m accustomed to hearing pieces as I learn them with unpedaled crispness, I tend to use pedal more sparingly than what seems to be the prevailing practice of others.

[davepinto]

I'd love to play and experiment with pedaling on early pianos like the ones Beethoven, Chopin, etc were writing for.Anyone know where such an animal is available?  I live in Los Angeles. Also, anyone know of EXCELLENT recorded performances on these early pianos?

[keyboardclass]

The sad thing is all the period instrument Chopin I've heard has pedaling with so little thought.  What a waste!

[lostinidlewonder]

Chopin often employs the syncopated pedal, that is a fast up and down pedal to connect passages without any break in sound, so you come up simultaneously with the part you are connecting and the pedal comes down as soon as required again before you let go of the first note(s) of the connecting part.

I teach my students to ignore the pedal markings unless they need it (like the fingering suggestions included in some scores). One should cultivate an understanding for the use of the pedal in how it effects the sound you produce. I generally teach these axioms of pedal usage and it allows students to understand how to use it without having to read the pedal markings which are often more confusing and time consuming than using ones own pedal sense.

-How the Damper or Sustaining Pedal of the piano acts
-General ill effects of the Wrong use of the Pedal
-General Valuable Effects of the Pedal
-General Qualifications essential for the right use of pedal
-Necessity for Careful listening
-How to depress the pedal
-Importance of the pedal in piano playing
-Neglect of the pedal by musicians, reasons for this negelct
-How to use the pedal for connecting tones
-Excersises for connecting tones by the use of the syncopated pedal What to observe and guard against.
-Excersises on sustaining bass notes with intermediate chords
-Value of the pedal for freeing the hands so as to produce the approprate tone
-How to use the pedal in melody playing, Important rules for melody playing
-How to use the pedal for adding Brilliancy to Brilliant passages.
-When to use the pedal, unreliability of the usual printed pedal indications

[stevebob]

I wonder how precocious or advanced a student would be that his or her judgment regarding pedaling and fingering can effectively substitute for the suggestions of composers and editors for treating those elements.  I find it enormously beneficial to examine multiple editions of a composition I'm studying to compare the various ideas of experts in such matters.

[keyboardclass]

Banowetz gets it right:

Chopin's pedal markings make perfect sense when performed on a Pleyel grand similar to the ones he used. Even the absence of pedal for many bars seems correct. When the pianist remains faithful to Chopin's avoidance of pedal, its use when indicated is like a breath of fresh air. Slight blurring also sounds correct at specific places. Often these purposely blurred passages sound almost  impressionistic, and give the music a kaleidoscopic and multicolored effect. Franz Liszt described the sound of Chopin's Pleyel as the marriage of crystal and water.

[lostinidlewonder]

I wonder how precocious or advanced a student would be that his or her judgment regarding pedaling and fingering can effectively substitute for the suggestions of composers and editors for treating those elements.

The more you are reading fingerings in the score the more you do not understand the procedure that is asked from you. This is not to say it is wrong to read fingerings (even though many lesser music editions must have had a drunk writing the fingerings), but it highlights that you are playing something that you have little experience with. The same applies for pedaling but with a even more serious intensity, if you rely on reading pedaling directions from a page then you are missing the overall picture of what your phrases should sound like. It might be ok to read the pedal markings in the sheet music but it is unnecessary more often than not for those who actually know what the piece they should be playing sounds like in their minds eye.


We are not slaves to the sheet music if we understand the musical context in which the compositions are written. Thus much of what needs to be resolved can be understood organically and drawn from past experience, rather than treating them as merely sheet music markings that need to be memorized. We also do not simply accept fingerings we read without understanding what it means for our hands to undergo those fingerings (how the fingering effects our technique, sound production, relaxation, balance etc). We have to have an overall concept of what we are doing or we are simply trying to solve everything with a formulated sheet, a method which is not natural enough for my tastes and does not leave you room for "application of past knowledge" for future works. We have to understand not merely memorize. Once we understand there is less information we need to learn a piece.

[keyboardclass]

lost, I feel you are misunderstanding Chopin's intentions - he composed the pedaling.  The indications are as integral as any others in his scores.

[lostinidlewonder]

I didn't mean do not read the markings they are of course a good learning source. The pedaling makes sense without having to read it if you know what the style of music sounds like though. Why are certain pedal markings written as such, it has a musical reason, that it is the only way we can come to the understanding of how to use the pedal. Even though it is marked, it makes little sense unless you attach it to the music, then when you play it is the music that encourages the use of the pedal, not really just the pedal itself (which the markings only talk about). It is how I like to treat the pedal, it is like a part of the breath of the piano, and if you can hear the music the pedal will follow and create the sound you need.

[keyboardclass]

I agree, a person could learn to pedal Chopin instinctively and correctly - I've never heard it though.

[stevebob]

The more you are reading fingerings in the score the more you do not understand the procedure that is asked from you. This is not to say it is wrong to read fingerings (even though many lesser music editions must have had a drunk writing the fingerings), but it highlights that you are playing something that you have little experience with. The same applies for pedaling but with a even more seribous intensity, if you rely on reading pedaling directions from a page then you are missing the overall picture of what your phrases should sound like. It might be ok to read the pedal markings in the sheet music but it is unnecessary more often than not for those who actually know what the piece they should be playing sounds like in their minds eye.

Your generalizations are suspect and seem frankly insulting.  It isn't necessary to elevate your apparently lofty teaching principles by disparaging the knowledge and practices of others; you truly seem to believe you know more than all the Great Minds of Music put together—and certainly more than anyone here—but I'm reflexively skeptical of people so convinced of their own infallibility.

There's an apparent contradiction, too, in what you've presented here.  In your first post to this thread you offered your syllabus of what looks like Damper Pedal 101; it’s basic information for beginner-level students.  But it seems unlikely that such a relative neophyte could have the skill set or accumulated experience to accomplish what’s suggested in the paragraph I quoted above.  As fascinated as I am by the editorial decisions of pedigreed musical scholars even after decades of playing piano, it’s probably the hypothetical novice of Damper Pedal 101 who ignores such counsel to his or her peril and who would benefit most of all from examining closely those fingering and pedaling suggestions.

I'm curious if you could specify which are the "many lesser" editions?  Which editors were drunks?  For the purpose of this thread you could limit your answer to editions and editors of Chopin, though a more explicit response would be welcome.

I agree, a person could learn to pedal Chopin instinctively and correctly - I've never heard it though.

That reminds me of the line in Wayne's World about what monkeys could do. 

[lostinidlewonder]

Your generalizations are suspect and seem frankly insulting.

You fail to highlight how anything I have said is insulting

It isn't necessary to elevate your apparently lofty teaching principles by disparaging the knowledge and practices of others; you truly seem to believe you know more than all the Great Minds of Music put together—and certainly more than anyone here—but I'm reflexively skeptical of people so convinced of their own infallibility.

Again you fail to demonstrate how I have tried to elevate my principles and push down others. You should then try to critique the issues I have presented and stop trying to character assassinate.

There's an apparent contradiction, too, in what you've presented here.  In your first post to this thread you offered your syllabus of what looks like Damper Pedal 101; it’s basic information for beginner-level students.

I am sorry you are very wrong here. A beginner-level student is not interested in using the pedal to add brilliance for instance (one of my axioms). This is more suited for leggerissimo sections in Chopin for instance. You might have forgotten what "brilliance" means in terms of sound when it comes to piano.

But it seems unlikely that such a relative neophyte could have the skill set or accumulated experience to accomplish what’s suggested in the paragraph I quoted above.  As fascinated as I am by the editorial decisions of pedigreed musical scholars even after decades of playing piano, it’s probably the hypothetical novice of Damper Pedal 101 who ignores such counsel to his or her peril and who would benefit most of all from examining closely those fingering and pedaling suggestions.

This makes no sense, please clarify.

I have presented some points in studying the pedal, it is silly to think that all of these points need to be learnt for the beginner since it would require the experience of many many pieces and at levels much higher than beginner level. Is it you considering applying all these points in teaching a beginner? This wasn't what I was interested in one bit as the original poster was talking about advanced students.

I'm curious if you could specify which are the "many lesser" editions?  Which editors were drunks?  For the purpose of this thread you could limit your answer to editions and editors of Chopin, though a more explicit response would be welcome.

Anyone who reads a lot of piano music will admit that there are plenty of editions with bad fingering. They may not be famous editions but they are out there to purchase nonetheless. Are you saying you have never seen any edition in your entire life which has the fingerings wrong? Very peculiar to me, especially if you are a piano educator.

[stevebob]

Wow, I fail at so many things—and yet you accuse me of “character assassination.”

Stand behind your statements and name those editions and editors, please.

[lostinidlewonder]

I am merely highlighting a fact, the things that you suggest I do not see in action so why don't you support yourself instead of just saying it and being all huffy?

You need more reading experience if you think all fingerings ever published are all reliable.

[stevebob]

I am merely highlighting a fact, the things that you suggest I do not see in action so why don't you support yourself instead of just saying it and being all huffy?

You need more reading experience if you think all fingerings ever published are all reliable.

I never claimed that.  And apparently you cannot support what you claimed and wish to treat as "fact."

Oh dear ... "huffy"?  I don't know what kind of a teacher you are, but you excel at pot-kettle-black!

[lostinidlewonder]

Why do you want editions if you know which ones already have errors?

It is a fact that you said my posts where insulting and I am trying to tear down other ideas. It is a fact that you said it but it is utterly false.

[stevebob]

Why do you want editions if you know which ones already have errors?

First you claimed I said all editions were reliable, and now you claim I already know which ones have errors.  I never made any such assertion in either case—but you made a pretty outrageous one about "many lesser" editions and editors who must have been drunks.  All I asked was that you be specific.

[lostinidlewonder]

I didn't claim anything about what you think, I provided an IF THEN logic.
Wow ALL editions are reliable, that is even a more weeping statement. You say don't have any stance, but you do not know which editions have errors, this is your interest not mine because I know plenty of instances where they have got it wrong. I don't see why we should promote bad editions, and if I provide you with a large list and prove to you I know it what does that change? Since it has nothing to do with anything constructive I will not provide it.

Ok, lets just agree to disagree since we are polar opposites here.

[stevebob]

Wow ALL editions are reliable, that is even a more weeping statement. Ok, lets just agree to disagree since we are polar opposites here.

Polar opposites or not, there's nothing upon which to "agree to disagree" here.  Apparently you're unwilling or unable to answer my simple direct question.  Feel free to retreat from your claim about the "many lesser" editions and the drunk editors if you can't defend it, but please don't twist my words to evade the challenge.

[lostinidlewonder]

I just don't want Nils to get annoyed that you and I are arguing about nothing. Why don't you send me a private tell and we can continue there? Or are you interested in letting others know about your issues with me?

Respectfully decline your challenge, and I am sure others will understand why I do so.

[stevebob]

I just don't want Nils to get annoyed that you and I are arguing about nothing. Why don't you send me a private tell and we can continue there? Or are you interested in letting others know about your issues with me?

Respectfully decline your challenge, and I am sure others will understand why I do so.

It's your choice to characterize an exchange in which I ask you to defend your statements as "arguing," your choice to invoke the administrator's name here, and your choice to treat this as personal conflict.  It goes without saying that message boards exist for exchanging information and divergent viewpoints and opinions; a spirited conversation needn't be an uncivil one.

You are "sure others will understand" just as you were sure about the pianistic deficits of someone who cares to consider the pedaling and fingering advice of expert professionals (and equally sure that nothing insulting could be inferred from your remarks about that).  Don't be so sure!

From Mark Twain:  "The problem isn't what we don't know.  It's what we're sure of ... that just ain't so."

[lostinidlewonder]

It's your choice to characterize an exchange in which I ask you to defend your statements as "arguing," your choice to invoke the administrator's name here, and your choice to treat this as personal conflict.  It goes without saying that message boards exist for exchanging information and divergent viewpoints and opinions; a spirited conversation needn't be an uncivil one.

It was you who said what I was insulting and trying to pull others down. I asked you to please show evidence where I have done this and you merely say give me evidence where the fingerings are wrong which is evasive on your behalf to begin with. You have created in your own mind a circumstance where it is me who is not providing evidence but it is not a relevant issue since the initial argument was that you said I was pulling people down and insulting and i asked you to please explain yourself and why you think I am this way.

So I was first in asking for you to please highlight where anything I have said in the thread was being insulting or pulling other people down because this was not my aim yet you seem to believe strongly it is what I am doing. As a member of pianostreet for over 6 years I am yet to see other people other than yourself constantly call my advice to piano playing a device to insult or pull people down (since you adopt this very same attitude with me in other threads).

You are "sure others will understand" just as you were sure about the pianistic deficits of someone who cares to consider the pedaling and fingering advice of expert professionals (and equally sure that nothing insulting could be inferred from your remarks about that).  Don't be so sure

I can be sure because I have been clear as to why I am not giving the list to you. Would you like me to quote myself? Perhaps you can spend a little time to read and not get so fussed up about trying to defend yourself.

[gyzzzmo]

(ignoring all the irrelevant gibberish above...)

I actually never read pedalling, except for etudes.
Whether to use pedalling or not depends on the style of the music. And for Chopin, the usage of pedal is pretty straight forward; focus on purity of the melody and don't blur different chords together.

Trying to force 'playing like chopin intended' is (to my humble opinion) quite rubish. As an advanced performer you have to play it as You want it to sound. Forcing it differently results into a weird and non-logical performance.

[stevebob]

It was you who said what I was insulting and trying to pull others down. I asked you to please show evidence where I have done this and you merely say give me evidence where the fingerings are wrong which is evasive on your behalf to begin with. You have created in your own mind a circumstance where it is me who is not providing evidence but it is not a relevant issue since the initial argument was that you said I was pulling people down and insulting and i asked you to please explain yourself and why you think I am this way.

So I was first in asking for you to please highlight where anything I have said in the thread was being insulting or pulling other people down because this was not my aim yet you seem to believe strongly it is what I am doing. As a member of pianostreet for over 6 years I am yet to see other people other than yourself constantly call my advice to piano playing a device to insult or pull people down (since you adopt this very same attitude with me in other threads).

I can be sure because I have been clear as to why I am not giving the list to you. Would you like me to quote myself? Perhaps you can spend a little time to read and not get so fussed up about trying to defend yourself.

 

I think it was a mistake to expect a rational exchange with you.

[lostinidlewonder]

(ignoring all the irrelevant gibberish above...)

I actually never read pedalling, except for etudes.
Whether to use pedalling or not depends on the style of the music. And for Chopin, the usage of pedal is pretty straight forward; focus on purity of the melody and don't blur different chords together.

Trying to force 'playing like chopin intended' is (to my humble opinion) quite rubish. As an advanced performer you have to play it as You want it to sound. Forcing it differently results into a weird and non-logical performance.

I whole heartedly agree with this. Even the gibberish bit

[keyboardclass]

I actually never read pedalling, except for etudes.
Whether to use pedalling or not depends on the style of the music. And for Chopin, the usage of pedal is pretty straight forward; focus on purity of the melody and don't blur different chords together.

That's quite wrong.  Chopin blurs chords together!  He's often more interested in the loud aspect of pedaling.  Here's Banowetz again:

Most textbooks relate a change of pedal to a change of harmony. Chopin's pedaling is frequently independent of the
harmony, as when harmonies are deliberately blurred together. Chopin also uses pedal with scales, something many pedaling guides say is not permitted....
Chopin's original pedal indications create more blurring on modern pianos than they would have on his instrument, and that must be taken into account by today's performer. But this fact alone does not justify ignoring his directions. The pianist who evens out Chopin's pedal indications may be missing an important element of the compositional intent.

Do your research folks!

[lostinidlewonder]

I am sure gyzzmo is talking about blurring chords which are not harmonious with each other. For instance look at Suffocation Prelude, would you choose to blur the LH chords as they change? I hope not. Pedaling on a scale often is considered pedaling to add brilliance and is often applied to faster figures.

[gyzzzmo]

I am sure gyzzmo is talking about blurring chords which are not harmonious with each other. For instance look at Suffocation Prelude, would you choose to blur the LH chords as they change? I hope not. Pedaling on a scale often is considered pedaling to add brilliance and is often applied to faster figures.

I hoped that would be quite obvious, maybe i'll add some extra personal explanation for mr keyboardclass next time

[keyboardclass]

'Chopin's pedaling is frequently independent of the
harmony, as when harmonies are deliberately blurred together.'  I don't know what that means to you, but quite plain to me.  What's the point of supplying unpedaled examples of Chopin as an illustration of his pedaling?  I'm confused.

[lostinidlewonder]

What unpedaled example?

[keyboardclass]

In the edition I'm looking at Chopin has only indicated pedal in two places (the forte section).  How the opening in any way illustrates how he pedals is beyond me.

[stevebob]

In the edition I'm looking at Chopin has only indicated pedal in two places (the forte section).  How the opening in any way illustrates how he pedals is beyond me.

I hope it wasn't one of those "many lesser" ones ... drunk editor and all that. 

[lostinidlewonder]

Yeah if there is no pedal marking it doesn't always mean don't use pedal, that is an annoying part about reading pedal markings sometimes. In the Chopin Prelude I gave as an example however you should use the pedal at the start or the LH does not caress the RH effectively and all the broadening interpretations applied to the Lh sound stupid.

[keyboardclass]

Again you totally misunderstand.  How does looking at an unpedaled work tell us how Chopin wants it pedaled?  How does no pedal marking give us an example to follow?

[lostinidlewonder]

Again you totally misunderstand.  How does looking at an unpedaled work tell us how Chopin wants it pedaled?  How is no pedaling marked an example to follow?

Your line of argument is making little sense. We are talking about the pedal, you are talking about chopin marking the pedal, I don't see the difference except our approach is more ubiquitous. You commented on how Gyzzmo was "quite wrong" and we merely clarified. You do not want to accept this clarification and go off on a tangent which I will happily not follow

[prongated]

That's quite wrong.  Chopin blurs chords together!  He's often more interested in the loud aspect of pedaling.  Here's Banowetz again:Do your research folks!

Most textbooks relate a change of pedal to a change of harmony. Chopin's pedaling is frequently independent of the
harmony, as when harmonies are deliberately blurred together. Chopin also uses pedal with scales, something many pedaling guides say is not permitted....
Chopin's original pedal indications create more blurring on modern pianos than they would have on his instrument, and that must be taken into account by today's performer. But this fact alone does not justify ignoring his directions. The pianist who evens out Chopin's pedal indications may be missing an important element of the compositional intent.

Make that, "LOTS more blurring"

Solution on the modern piano? Half/flutter pedal in spots that do not need a clear new harmony to be emphasised ^^

[lostinidlewonder]

Thank god this isn't a pipe organ website, I think heads would be rolling by now

[keyboardclass]

Your line of argument is making little sense. We are talking about the pedal, you are talking about chopin marking the pedal, I don't see the difference except our approach is more ubiquitous. You commented on how Gyzzmo was "quite wrong" and we merely clarified. You do not want to accept this clarification and go off on a tangent which I will happily not follow

Prongated has already remarked - 'I cannot disagree more with you here. Just because the composer didn't specifically indicate "pedal" doesn't mean he didn't use it!'  And I agreed.  Why are you now trying to say that pedal needs to be used even when it's not marked' - waste our time buddy, why don't you?   This thread's about pedal marks.  You can always start your own!

[lostinidlewonder]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz wake me up when something intelligent is said.

[keyboardclass]

That's just rude.  I'm quoting valid references and you're just spouting on.

[lostinidlewonder]

About as rude as you saying I'm wasting peoples time when I address your confusion?

[keyboardclass]

No, you waste people's time when you repeat what has already been agreed on earlier in a thread.  Not to mention ignoring Banowetz - not intelligent enough for you obviously.