Is weight lifting/bodybuilding bad?

[punkpianist360]

My teacher said today that I should stop cause I am getting too strong and playing harsher.  The thing is, I've had that tendency before I started lifting weights, but still improving on that.  From what he said, it's opened my eyes a lot and am being more cautious about my f's and ff's.  Anyways, what is the forum's opinion on weightlifting?

[stevebob]

Your teacher is misinformed.  Gaining greater overall muscle mass and strength should have no effect on motor skills.

[birba]

Does anyone remember the name of that japanese muscle builder on youtube who plays classical piano?  You should check him out.  Stevebob is right.  Muscle mass has nothing to do with motor skills.

[thalbergmad]

It seems to be the opinion of the misinformed that building muscle causes one to do everything "harder" and bodybuilders are musclebound hunks with little control who can easily crush a baby to death in their arms by accident. I find this to be horseshit.

Many bodybuilders learn dance and ballet in order to give them greater control and more effect when posing. Bodybuilding helps to increase flexibility and is excellent for the body, unless taken to extremes.

The only problem i ever had mixing piano with bodybuilding, was an inability to play within 4 hours of a good workout.

Thal

[ted]

Every now and then this question comes up on piano forums. I do not know about competitive lifting or bodybuilding but I can say that regular resistance training has had no effect at all on my piano technique. Once or twice I have allowed somebody to persuade me it does and stopped training. All that has happened is that my fitness has gone down and my piano playing has remained the same.

For myself, I look at exercise this way. Suppose it did produce minor inefficiencies in my piano playing. It doesn't, but suppose it did. I don't want to reach seventy-five or eighty and find I haven't enough muscle strength to get out of bed and do an hour or two's solid playing. My wife and I frequently go to the food court at the local mall and the physical state of most men my age or even twenty or thirty years younger is disgusting. My choice is to have regular demanding exercise, a component of which is resistance work. I accept the odd pain and strain in the cause of feeling so much the better for an active life.

[punkpianist360]

The only problem i ever had mixing piano with bodybuilding, was an inability to play within 4 hours of a good workout.
Thal

That's when I sleep!!!!!!

[keyboardclass]

It's only OK if your musculature doesn't get unbalanced - how are your rhomboids?

[viking]

Piano performance requires minimal tension combined with a delicate balance and intimate knowledge of how your body works.
Weight lifting, for the most part works against everything that a top notch concert pianist strives for - and please don't tell me that Leon Bates is a top notch concert pianist!
If you care to prove me wrong, please upload a video of your playing.

[stevebob]

I'm not sure about the concerns of the "top notch concert pianist"—few people meet that lofty definition, after all—but I think the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate how weightlifting is incompatible with anything a musician strives for generally.  As far as I'm aware, "delicate balance and intimate knowledge of how your body works" are at least as integral to resistance training as they are to piano playing.

[punkpianist360]

Oooooookay, I've heard both sides on this issue, but let me elaborate on what I do.  I lift weights casually, spending no more than 70 minutes, lifting 3-4 days a week, totaling in 4 hours a week, plus swimming almost everyday for about an hour.  I have no intentions to compete in Mr. Olympia, weight lifting is just a release for me.

Viking and others on the opposing side: is it really that bad?  What alternative resistance training is there that are "pianist-friendly", make natural muscle, and still gain mass? 

[birba]

Resistance training will never harm your pianistic abilities.  believe me.  PLUS, you swim everyday, which means your motory movements are coordinated and muscle mass can never form.  In fact, ask any weight-lifter who participates in Mr. Olympus, and they will tell you they avoid the water like a cat.  It's counter-productive to bulging biceps.

[thalbergmad]

Weight lifting, for the most part works against everything that a top notch concert pianist strives for -

But he is weight training not weight lifting. Weight lifting is a term usually used to define those who use explosive bursts of strength to complete a single repetition. If this is what punk was doing, I would have grave reservations, as injury is more likely.

Resistance training 4 hours a week is excellent exercise and will no more impede his piano playing mechanism than knitting.

Thal

[viking]

Take a basic arm curl.  You train your biceps to tense, breaking the fibre of your muscle so that it grows back bigger, stronger, larger.  Your biceps will be sore after doing this excersize, and, if done with any type of consistency, your body will form a habit.  The problem with this habit is that when playing the piano, you cannot tense your biceps, else the tension will travel.  Can you play fast octaves with tense biceps? No.  Can you play chopin etude Op.25 No.6 with tense biceps/forearms?  No.
You might be able to get away with playing at a basic level, or playing at an advanced level with discomfort, but honestly don't tell me that this doesn't hurt one's piano performing abilities.  One needs not weight to play at the piano, but speed of attack with the precision of the 10mm depth of the key.  Have any of you noticed the way your forearms are rock solid while playing the piano?  That might tell you something.

[punkpianist360]

But he is weight training not weight lifting. Weight lifting is a term usually used to define those who use explosive bursts of strength to complete a single repetition. If this is what punk was doing, I would have grave reservations, as injury is more likely.

Resistance training 4 hours a week is excellent exercise and will no more impede his piano playing mechanism than knitting.

Thal

Um....I do drop sets descending, but by no means do any weight as to where I can only do one rep of that weight.

[keyboardclass]

Are you an expert swimmer?

[punkpianist360]

I used to compete in swim meets regularly when I wasn't too serious about piano.  Now, I jsut do it for the exercise.

[keyboardclass]

That's not quite the same.  What I mean is do you swim with an expert's form?

[thalbergmad]

Your biceps will be sore after doing this excersize, and, if done with any type of consistency, your body will form a habit.  

Your biceps will be sore and piano playing would be impeded if you went straight from the gym to the piano, but once you have recovered you will play as well as before.

Thal

[punkpianist360]

Honestly, I have been weight lifting more these past few months, and I do seem a little tense.

For example, the the broken octaves section in the 1st movement of the Beethoven Op. 2 No.3 I am having a lot of trouble with, and I remember back in April, when I only lifted like once or twice a week, I played them just fine. 

I am really considering stopping weight lifting and try some non weight resistance training.

[thalbergmad]

Honestly, I have been weight lifting more these past few months, and I do seem a little tense.

If you train more, your recovery period increases, so if I were you I would go back to your previous training schedules.

Also, you might want to consider your diet. Are you training harder and not getting sufficient nutrients?

I would not be inclined to give up. You obviously enjoy doing it.

Thal

[viking]

Thal,

Weight lifting/training trains more than mass, but more importantly, muscle memory.  Any Kineseologist will tell you that much.  In fact, there are many people with smaller muscles able to life more due to a higher developed muscle memory.  In the case of repetitive training, lifting curls for example, the body remembers to use those muscles in a certain habitual way.  Problem is, when we go to the piano, our body remembers the weights, and uses the wrong type of muscles resulting in tension.  Go get a friend to grab your arm while you play, and tell me if he/she said it was hard or not, or would it depend on if your friend was a he or a she?

[Bob]

Do the muscles get used to healing up?  I.e. heal up faster the more you use them, assuming you stress them and allow them to recover.

[thalbergmad]

Go get a friend to grab your arm while you play, and tell me if he/she said it was hard or not, or would it depend on if your friend was a he or a she?

She said my arms were not hard, but i have not trained since early this morning. If anything, it is my shoulders that seem to tense whilst playing, but i have never attributed that to my love for military presses.

Something else was hard, but that was a result of a Tomasek sonata.

What you say is interesting, but i cannot help but think that any impediment rather depends on the individual and the kind of workouts they do.

Perhaps really top notch pianists do not weight train, but i have always thought that i am more likely to damage my hands posting crap on here than i would by lifting weights.

Thal

[punkpianist360]

If you train more, your recovery period increases, so if I were you I would go back to your previous training schedules.

Also, you might want to consider your diet. Are you training harder and not getting sufficient nutrients?

I would not be inclined to give up. You obviously enjoy doing it.

Thal

My diet is fine:  Whole Grain carbs, white meat, salmon, etc.....

I enjoy weight lifting, but I love piano much more.  I have decided that I will consult with a few of my mentors, see what exercises are pianist friendly that are good for toning, then consult a personal trainer. 

As for cardio, I will do at least 2 hours of that a day to start the muscle depletion process so I can get my dexterity back.'

Also, from what I remember, I actually DID play piano better when I didn't do weight training, and when I did, the results went down the drain, from my personal experience.

[ted]

Something else was hard, but that was a result of a Tomasek sonata.

At my age, Thal, such events, at least at the piano, are a distant memory, which all things considered is rather a blessing.

[birba]

I repeat.  Does anyone remember that japanese pianist weight-lifter on youtube?  He was doing the Goldberg variations if I remember correctly.   What was his name?!

[punkpianist360]

I repeat.  Does anyone remember that japanese pianist weight-lifter on youtube?  He was doing the Goldberg variations if I remember correctly.   What was his name?!

What's his youtube link?

[punkpianist360]

Yo, today is my first day not lifting, and already I see little improvement.  I can play lighter, and I can voice better, and I thought it was just me!  Imagine what will happen in two weeks( my college audition)! 

[thalbergmad]

I might give up myself if this is the benefit.

Thal

[stevebob]

I've already given up advocating for it.

[punkpianist360]

I don't know if you two are making a mockery or being serious.  However, judging from Viking's education, and playing (which is phenomenal), he might have a valid point.

[thalbergmad]

I am not mocking anyone and by the sounds of it he has got a valid point.

It would appear that the more seriously you take your piano playing, the less seriously you should take your weight training. For the average 3rd rate hack like me, it probably does not matter, but I doubt if Mr Hamelin goes to the gym and burns out on supersets, although i do not know this for sure.

I think perhaps you were too serious with your training and if you are benefitting from giving up, no doubt that is the right decision for you.

Thal

[ahinton]

I doubt if Mr Hamelin goes to the gym and burns out on supersets, although i do not know this for sure.

I believe that M. Hamelin does do some exercise although whether any of that gets done in a gym I cannot say as I do not know; I can pretty much quarantee that he doesn't "burn out on supersets", however - whjich is probably just as well, as we might otherwise hear a good deal less from him thab we do.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Johnathan Powell looks like he can bench a few kilos.

Thal

[stoudemirestat]

Could gripping the barbell lead to tight wrists?

I've also really struggled in the past with massive callusses and blisters, making piano somewhat difficult, but it's worth it I guess.