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Topic: Kawai vs Shigeru Kawai vs Steinway  (Read 50357 times)

Offline raeellen

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Kawai vs Shigeru Kawai vs Steinway
on: November 13, 2010, 02:53:24 AM
Can anyone help provide a comparision between these pianos? We may have to replace our Steinway M and have a short term opportunity for a good deal on either a Kawai or a Shigeru Kawai. Is there any resource out there or person here that can comment on which piano in these models is most compreble and what the differences would be?

Offline pianist1976

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Re: Kawai vs Shigeru Kawai vs Steinway
Reply #1 on: November 15, 2010, 01:00:54 PM
Just my two cents, my personal opinion based only on my experience. Your experience can be different  ;)

Kawai is not a bad make for mid-price but cannot beat in any way Steinway (maybe the Kawai big grand model can compete with Steinway D but in mid sized models, Steinway wins). There's also a really big price difference between Steinway M, A and B models and their Kawai's equivalents, RX2, RX3 and RX7. Steinway is so much expensive than the equivalent Kawai models but it's also far better in any aspect (at least in my opinion). In my opinion (again) the only reason to choose a mid-sized Kawai instead a mid-sized Steinway is economic.If your budget is not enough to afford an Steinway, then Kawai or Yamaha can be good choices.

Offline prongated

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Re: Kawai vs Shigeru Kawai vs Steinway
Reply #2 on: November 15, 2010, 04:14:41 PM
I personally own a 2007 Kawai RX-3 and for many years played on a Shigeru SK-6 for my lessons. These days I play on a NY Steinway for my lessons and practise on...

...anyway! I personally appreciate how far Kawai has gone to develop their pianos over the last many decades. On the other hand, these days I can't help but feel that the pianos throughout the RX-series range can be rather lacking in power (especially in the top register). The tone, however, can be very nice - sweet, round, singing - depending on how it's set up. It's really a piano that needs someone who knows how to set it up properly in order to get the best out of. It applies also to the action, because often the keys are rather heavy to press ><

The Shigeru range is significantly livelier in sound, although earlier models do suffer also from the lack of power in the top register. It can be very articulate, but is also capable of making that round sound (it's easier to do this on the RX than a Shigeru though). In fact, depending on how it's set up, a Shigeru can be a truly amazing instrument, period. The range of sound and colour that you can produce on this piano is very impressive, if you know how to coax them through touch.

What I find from a pianist's perspective as regards Kawai VS Steinway is, they require a slightly different technical approach in order to get the best sound out of them. To get Kawais to generate all the possible colours, you need to also be conscious about how you depress the keys with your fingertips. On Steinways, appropriate gestures from your arms, body etc. matter more (don't know how, but proper Steinways can be truly telepathic like that!)

So ultimately...while these days I would prefer a Steinway in a money-no-object proposition, you should just go find a piano that you like :)

[another option is, what about restoring the M?]

Offline raeellen

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Re: Kawai vs Shigeru Kawai vs Steinway
Reply #3 on: November 15, 2010, 06:22:30 PM
Thanks for the help. Any other opinions are welcome. Unfortunately, keeping the Steinway and/or restoration are not really options in our case.

Offline john90

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Re: Kawai vs Shigeru Kawai vs Steinway
Reply #4 on: November 15, 2010, 09:44:23 PM
Switching pianos can be expensive. Unless you are looking to save space, how about just fixing the Steinway, as opposed to restoring it. Save any parts that are broken and removed, take a pay as you go approach, spend a little more in tech fees. An unrestored Steinway is a good investment. Let the tech complain a bit, call them out more, if it plays good for 2-3 months after the tech has gone, it is great value. All new pianos loose money the day they leave the showroom. If I was looking to release equity I would go for a second hand replacement and a good tech.

Offline richard black

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Re: Kawai vs Shigeru Kawai vs Steinway
Reply #5 on: November 15, 2010, 10:11:07 PM
The M is a small grand. A Kawai that size might be a bit disappointing, but if you are getting one bigger than that - say 200cm, 6"6' sort of size - there will be compensations in the richer bass and general tonal niceness.
Instrumentalists are all wannabe singers. Discuss.

Offline raeellen

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Re: Kawai vs Shigeru Kawai vs Steinway
Reply #6 on: November 15, 2010, 10:34:49 PM
I wish we could just fix the Steinway. Unfortunately, that's not possible.

We actually own an Essex, so we have a piano for practice and play. So it's not a matter of getting our "money's worth" so much as we are interested if there is any way to get our "piano's worth" from these two brands. When I said a good deal on them, more precisely, we may be offered one of these brands of piano as compensation for the loss of our Steinway, and, if we don't take them, there's no guarentee we will get anything at all. I guess this is a really subjective question.

Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Kawai vs Shigeru Kawai vs Steinway
Reply #7 on: November 15, 2010, 11:16:26 PM
Can anyone help provide a comparision between these pianos?

My Personal opinion?

Steinway = *** BRILLIANT!
Shigeru Kawai = Okay, if you HAVE to buy it...
Kawai = I wouldn't wipe my arse with it (although that would be uncomfortable anyway).

Offline john90

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Re: Kawai vs Shigeru Kawai vs Steinway
Reply #8 on: November 16, 2010, 08:33:57 AM
It sounds like it is down to economics. I guess it depends on how new your Steinway was, and what condition it was in. A new one with newer glues and finish should tolerate say water damage (for example) better than an old one. Second hand grand pianos are not selling for what they were, even Steinways. I would want cash, l would take 6 months to find another second hand one myself. Or keep what you have, get some cash, and see if a tech can make it playable. If I had a nice Boston, then I don't see what benefit having a Kawi would be. No one on here has claimed a Kawi is better than a Steinway, and I guess after 20 years the Steinway will be worth more than a 2010 Kawi.

An alternative is to sell the new replacement offered before you take delivery of it, offer to buy back the Steinway. Then get the Steinway playable, perhaps cosmetically less than perfect, sell the Boston, and then look for a second hand Bosendorfer with the money from selling the Boston and Pre delivery Kawi! You get two quite different instruments, and longer term, hopefully less depreciation.

Offline riskarb

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Re: Kawai vs Shigeru Kawai vs Steinway
Reply #9 on: November 22, 2010, 03:46:28 AM
Shigeru Kawaii >> Kawaii so let's eliminate Kawai from the get-go.

Shigeru Kawaii vs Steinway (all based on my opinion of course)

- Shigeru Kawaii is probably the best value in the market across any brand.....so if price is a serious consideration, you will get a much better piano for your buck with Shigeru Kawaii than any other including Steinway

- Shigeru Kawaii has better action than the Steinway and much better quality control / consistency between pianos.

- I prefer the sound and lower register of the Steinway. Sound feels deeper in the bass and seems to resonate longer/farther. If you like to play alot of romantic / orchestral works go for this.... however if you're more into baroque I'd be less fussed.

- Upper register is about the same in my opinion.

- Minor nit on the Shigeru Kawai..... across the whole register, I feel like there's 1mm less downward travel on the keys than on the Steinway and other pianos. I can get a quicker response/action, but there seems to be a small sacrifice in terms of tone/resonance.


Either way, good luck in your decision and be sure to post a pic of your final decision - hopefully with you in it!

Offline turtlet

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Re: Kawai vs Shigeru Kawai vs Steinway
Reply #10 on: February 21, 2014, 11:53:57 PM
As someone who has worked in the piano industry for 20 years and has sold all three types I will give you my opinion.

Steinway piano's have done a great job in promoting their name. However, when the Steinway family sold out in the early '70's, the product's consistency dropped tremendously.

Shigeru Kawai's are the handmade version of Kawai piano's, and are considerably better for touch and tone then normal Kawai's. A step above the RX's and GX's if you will.

Each piano is different, so you need to PLAY each one if you have the ability to.

But in my experience, Shigeru comes first, followed by Kawai THEN Steinway.

I'll tell you a little bit of information that not many people know. Have you ever realized how Steinway stores don't have many other products other than what Steinway puts out on their sales floor? How many stores have you seen sell a Steinway AS WELL AS a Schimmel or a Bosendorfer? The answer: 0. Steinway does not like to have any other competition on their floor because their pianos will not compete with others and you are probably paying DOUBLE of what the piano is truly worth just because of the name on the front. If you don't believe me look at their confidence in their piano's with their warranties that they issue: Kawai- 10 year full warranty. Steinway- 5 year. Hope this helps.

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: Kawai vs Shigeru Kawai vs Steinway
Reply #11 on: February 21, 2014, 11:59:08 PM
Thanks for your review of these pianos.

Does CBS still own Steinway?  Didn't they just recently get bought by some Korean manufacturer?

Offline iansinclair

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Re: Kawai vs Shigeru Kawai vs Steinway
Reply #12 on: February 22, 2014, 12:32:24 AM
Thanks for your review of these pianos.

Does CBS still own Steinway?  Didn't they just recently get bought by some Korean manufacturer?

no, and no.  Steinway was taken private by a private capital firm.  Most of the craftsmen are still there; some of the top management has left.

To a previous commenter: it is quite unfortunately true that there was a period of time when Steinway had been purchased and sold by large conglomerates.  During that period, the quality control did suffer; I'll not argue with that.

That situation is improving rapidly under the new management -- and does not apply in any way to Steinways made more than about 25 to 30 years ago.  There is a good reason for the reputation, and it's not hype.

There is also a good reason why Steinway sales rooms sell only Steinways, and it's the same reason that Chevrolet dealers sell only Chevrolets.  Think about it.
Ian

Offline justharmony

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Re: Kawai vs Shigeru Kawai vs Steinway
Reply #13 on: February 22, 2014, 03:15:09 AM
My personal preference is Shigeru all the way.  I've never been a huge fan of Steinway - mostly because of the hype, the inflated prices, and the previously noted lack of consistency.  It doesn't help (though this has little to do with Steinway directly) that soooo many people/companies/organizations seem to prize their steinways in name only and don't know the first thing about actually playing or caring for said pianos.  Sad.

I also don't like the very stiff, heavy action that I tend to find on Steinways.  That is the most consistent thing I've found on them. 

Shigeru is amazing.  Made me cry with joy.  Not all will do that, I'm sure, but I'm sold. 

Just my two cents.

Offline jknott

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Re: Kawai vs Shigeru Kawai vs Steinway
Reply #14 on: February 22, 2014, 09:08:54 AM
i've recently bought the smallest model of Shigeru Kawai and am delighted with it. My piano teacher (also a concert pianist) also thinks I've made a good choice.  I also felt it was pretty good value - e.g. compared with Schimmel which I also considered (I got a deal for around £25k in London).

Offline future_maestro

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Re: Kawai vs Shigeru Kawai vs Steinway
Reply #15 on: February 22, 2014, 05:40:16 PM
     Standard Kawai is not going to compete with Shigeru Kawai or Steinway in the competition for "best piano," but where Kawai has Steinway and Shigeru beat is the price tag. Sure you're getting what you pay for, but most people don't have 70 to 100 thousand dollars cash hanging around to pick up on of these concert instruments. Never the less, a standard Kawai is worth its price tag.

     I have a Shigeru Kawai SK5, and it is every bit as good as the standard Steinway piano. Basically, there's a certain point where all these pianos are so good that the small differences between them don't matter that much. What I mean is that a Shigeru Kawai might be just a slight (and I mean slight) bit less a piano than a Steinway, but the Steinway also costs 2 times as much! So is it really worth it?

     I'll put it to you like this, if your a piano player and you haven't saved $70,000 then buy a standard Kawai, still an excellent piano. If you're a advanced player who has 50 grand stored away then buy a Shigeru Kawai, a better piano still. And if you're a millionaire and want a piano/status symbol, then buy a Steinway, which is not a ton better then a Shigeru, but hey, it says "Steinway & Sons," on the side, so who cares right?



P.S. I do love Steinway pianos and would give any part of my lower body to have one, but my point here is: if it's not a ton better than a Shigeru, then why spend the extra 40k to buy one?
"To play a wrong note is insignificant;
to play without passion is inexcusable."
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Offline iansinclair

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Re: Kawai vs Shigeru Kawai vs Steinway
Reply #16 on: February 23, 2014, 12:39:48 AM
future_maestro is quite correct, in my humble opinion -- but I would add that when you get up in the range of pianos he (and presumably we on this thread!) are talking about, it is far more important that you, the player, really like the way your instrument plays.  The name on the fallboard is far less important than the fact that you yourself love the instrument, and that it fits well into both the music you play and the space you play it in.

Furthermore, if you are thinking of spending that kind of money on a piano, is there any reason to not take the time to play a variety of instruments (unless you happen to know that you like or dislike a specific name; there are some which have rather strong "personalities" -- Bosendorfers tend to be bright; Steinways tend to have slightly heavier actions; etc.)?  You would take the time if you were buying a house, surely.  A piano in the class we are talking about is not a commodity!  And, oddly, the higher grade the piano is, the more likely it is that there will be subtle (but very important!) variations from instrument to instrument within the same make and model, never mind between different models or makes.  It is relatively easy to turn out a very good piano the same way every time -- but at the superb top end, each instrument is a work of art, and no two are alike, or can be.
Ian
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