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Czerny V. Hanon?? (Read 29565 times)

Offline pts1

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #50 on: May 04, 2012, 12:09:36 AM »
Quote
The complexity exists in the enormous variation possible within the human apparatus, which is in turn used to create the key strike. Not in the function of the piano mechanism itself.

Well this is exactly correct, and if anyone thought I'm arguing against this, I apologize.

Of course there's too many movements among different players to count --  all aimed at moving the key just a fraction of a distance to make sound.

And probably, many of these movements, though different, produce reasonably identical sounds-- I'm talking a single sound here for discussion purposes -- since movements to produce sound is tempered or constrained by the piano mechanism itself.

As I said before, the movements are required by the pianists, not the piano, and many movements are legitimately necessary due to the human mechanism. On the required list there are playing movments, releasing movements, relaxing movements, preparation movements, compound movements, and on and on. And there are expressive movements as well, which may well effect the pianist's "artisitic inclinations" at the moment of sound production.

But the piano itself requires only the fraction of an inch to lever the hammer into the string.

But, IMHO, less is more, as Horowitz and Michelangelli well demonstrate. (I had the luck to see both of them play live once. Horowitz sat nearly motionless and sounded very much like he does on recordings, drawing the sound from the keboard with nary a movement -- at least that's what it looked like from high in the student seat balcony! Michelangelli moved even LESS, was very patrician, elegant, literally NOTE PERFECT and not only that, but each note, each phrase seemed perfectly thought out and played. It was as close to perfection as humanly possible, and maybe it was. The Horowitz concert, however had an element of pandemonium about it, which was a hoot in itself, and he did in fact have that "devil in a box" quality about him. He played mostly piano and mezzo piano, bringing out the melody quite a bit. And when those crashing chords were played, they truly seemed overwhealming in the context of what had come before since you could feel the tension build and build and build.)

Anyway, I feel this topic is pretty well exhausted, and I think there's little else I can add, though I'll be happy to discuss further with anyone who wants a decent discussion.


Offline ajspiano

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #51 on: May 04, 2012, 01:19:25 AM »
I would add that the critical difference between movements is not so much the tone they produce - as the same tone can obviously be produced with different overall motions so long as the hammer moves at the same speed - rather the critical is how the movement effects the sensations in the body and the bodies ability to execute subsequent movements.

Offline marik1

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #52 on: May 04, 2012, 05:55:04 AM »

This is where you came in, claiming that pianistic "sound production" has "nothing to do with loudness" (from the hammer striking the string) but is a "complex fusion of thousands of different elements."

Since you realize you can't possibly support this idiotic claim that flies in the face of common sense, science and fact, and you cannot even offer a handful of these "thousands of elements", it would appear you are the dabbler, a fraud, an arrogant poser. And instead supporting your claim with facts...

 ;D ;D ;D

Hey PTS, you are really something and the confusion in your head is quite amusing! Let me tell you something. First, I never even mentioned anything about "sound production"--I was talking about "sound PROJECTION". Second, the "thousands of elements" was a completely different discussion and was referred to "performance and teaching". Third, if you'd like any additional support, then make a search on this very forum and you will find quite a bit more than handful of that.

Besides numerous advices and discussions about sound, technique, performance, with that search you might also find some of our discussions with Bernhard on the current topic about Hanon and Czerny (with whom I was raised, as well as with all kinds of scales, entire op. 299 (most of which in many different keys), entire op. 740, Bach Inventions played in octaves, not to mention by the age of 18 I have already played Brahms-Paganini both books, Liszt Don Juan, and MOST of Chopin etudes).

I studied in one of the best school in the world one could only imagine, with one of the greatest teachers of the last century many could only dream to study with, and who for many years was favorite Neuhaus' assistant and IMHO, was a much better and inspiring teacher than Neuhaus. I believe, I know what I am talking about and have offered this community quite a bit of my expertise (out of thousand messages of mine on this board, most were on topic of pianism, sound production, and performance, which helped quite a few people), so please spare your ridiculous "supporting your claim with facts".

Speaking of Bernhard, while we did not agree on many things, he was much more interesting opponent than you. At least he was civilized, unlike you--an ordinary bully--one of those whom in every primary school everybody afraids, but nobody respects, trying to avoid--as they say in Russian--don't touch crap, so it won't stink.

All of my "claims" like how to develop a substantial technique, how to do a tremolo, the actual facts behind sound production the pianist has control over -- I have supported with quite worthwhile discussion and fact, aka "walking the walk".

Ah, who cares about that sh*tty talk. How about real "walking the walk"? Care to post any recordings of yours? How about both of us agree on the same piece recorded on a weekly notice? Or do you need two weeks? Three, half a year, or whatever?

Since you were speaking so fondly about your "virtuosic technique", how about Chopin Op.10 no.1, 2 you were bragging about? Or maybe Liszt Feux Follets or Rhapsody no.6? Or is it too small for you? Then how about Tchaikovsky 1st... say cadenza, so no orchestra involved... or Rach3?--maybe first movement is way too easy, so let's take the third one--any part of it, no orchestra required, just record at home from one take?

Or maybe Mendelssohn-Rachmaninov Scherzo from Midsummernight Dreams? Let's record something together and then post here to see who is "dabbler, a fraud, an arrogant poser", who "talks the talk", and who "walks a walk". Or are you gonna find some excuses?

I will not post anything I cannot do (or have done), or cannot support with logic and fact.

Oh please, so far it seems your logic is based on distortion of the facts, twisting the words, and stupid allegations, taken out of context to suit your own interests, so please, let's not go there.

I suggest you develop some humility since others as well have noted you "are not the real deal" and stop acting the fool!

Ah, just yet another "logic" of yours--some wishful thinking, your usual twisting--another lie of yours. I actually saw the message you are referring to, and no, unlike you are trying to put it (yeah, big surprise!) Thalbergmad states:

Perhaps you [Marik] should repost your stunning Tausig/Weber, just in case there is any doubt amongst some members that you are not the "real deal".

In case you don't know, in English it is called double negative. If you still have any questions, the same poster in other message stated that:

His [Marik's] recording of the Weber/Tausig Invitation will live forever in my memory.

But I am willing to forget all that crap, so if you are indeed looking for "decent discussion", as you say, let's put al that sh*t aside and take another message of yours:

Quote
He [Horowitz] played mostly piano and mezzo piano,


I also heard Horowitz a few times live--in Moscow (where I was studying) and Saint Petersburg. Also, one of my former teachers had studied with him. So what would you say, when he was projecting better?--playing pianissimo, piano, or mezzo piano? Only seriously.

Best wishes, M

Offline ajspiano

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #53 on: May 04, 2012, 06:31:16 AM »
M - ...even if PTS doest want to compete - I wouldn't mind seeing your 10/1 plus any thoughts on mine so far (its not a concert ready version yet though, there's a thread in the students corner).


Offline marik1

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #54 on: May 04, 2012, 07:11:58 AM »
M - ...even if PTS doest want to compete - I wouldn't mind seeing your 10/1 plus any thoughts on mine so far (its not a concert ready version yet though, there's a thread in the students corner).

Ah, I am sure he won't compete--the law of boors and bullies.

In any case, I haven't worked on Chopin 10/1 in some 25 years, so give me some 3-5 days to see where I am with that one--if I record it I might miss some notes here and there.

Thanks for heads up--I will look at your recording and post what I think.

Best, M  

Offline pts1

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #55 on: May 05, 2012, 02:56:50 PM »
Marik

What happened... I was getting ready to respond to your original most recent post to me -- after staring at it with jaw dropping disbelief -- and upon rereading it realized you have deleted a good bit of it!

What happened to the long list of famous teachers who had the privelege to have you as their student? What happened to the reference to "my sh*t*y six hours of practice".

You have even tempered your challenge to a piano dual replete with name calling and so on.

Are you worried that you're the one who looks like a common, cursing bully?

Are you worried that piano duals and bragging and "playoff challenges" are not what music is about?

So far, you seem like what is wrong with piano, not what's right... bragging, one upmanship, exaggerated if not downright false claims.

Yes, my friend, you're the one doing all the bragging about great teachers, and great accomplishments -- Bach inventions in octaves.... Ohhhhhhh! --

I've merely said at one time long ago I was required to develop a virtuoso level technique due to where I was studying... as was everyone else... and practiced 6 hours per day (which was only about average).

You however have time traveled us to the Swiss Alps and Castles in Italy and Moscow, St Petersberg, a list of luminous (in your opinion) teachers, not to mention the repetiore you have conquered!

Quote
I know what I am talking about and have offered this community quite a bit of my expertise (out of thousand messages of mine on this board....

Now I find this interesting.... the counter by your name says you've made under 50 posts, and yet you're saying its "a thousand".

Maybe you mean that WITHIN those 50 scintillating posts, there are "a thousand pearls of wisdom" or "a thousand messages", all in neat little wrappers like.... fortune cookies!

No, I don't think the musical bully such as your self wanting to beat up someone on the "piano performance playground" is what music is or should be about -- competition much less a "prize fight".

However, one day I may well post one of the pieces you mention, but not for you, nor for purposes of comparison or "tearing apart" (which I welcome you to do).

And until then, here's a first effort at this dual -- my weapon of choice, treubuchet hurled flaming upright pianos at 100 yards! (I thought this fit well with your 14th Century Castle brag... and as you can see I missed you with my first shot.... damn!)


Offline ronde_des_sylphes

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #56 on: May 05, 2012, 04:13:41 PM »
Marik

[...]

So far, you seem like what is wrong with piano, not what's right... bragging, one upmanship, exaggerated if not downright false claims.

Yes, my friend, you're the one doing all the bragging about great teachers, and great accomplishments -- Bach inventions in octaves.... Ohhhhhhh! --

[...]

Now I find this interesting.... the counter by your name says you've made under 50 posts, and yet you're saying its "a thousand".

I don't presume to speak for marik, who is more than capable of speaking for himself, but, so that you know.. marik has made >1000 posts on a previous account, so he's not inventing statistics. It's also a pity his recordings aren't still around; as a long-time member here I can assure you they are a far greater testament to his pianistic capabilities than words alone.

Offline Mayla

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #57 on: May 05, 2012, 05:23:48 PM »
.
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline pts1

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #58 on: May 05, 2012, 06:10:50 PM »
,

Offline marik1

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #59 on: May 05, 2012, 06:43:08 PM »

What happened... I was getting ready to respond to your original most recent post to me -- after staring at it with jaw dropping disbelief -- and upon rereading it realized you have deleted a good bit of it!

Considering there is a “modify” feature I thought it is my right to use it at my own discretion. Am I wrong? Or should I give you reports as for why did I do it?

Quote
What happened to the long list of famous teachers who had the privelege to have you as their student? What happened to the reference to "my sh*t*y six hours of practice".

I never put “the long list of famous teachers”. First, the list of my teachers is not very long second, those were students of the same teacher with whom I was studying. Since you mentioned John Connors coming from the same place as you, I thought that would be appropriate to put some rather famous names, as well. Upon re-reading I could see it as bragging, so I removed the list. Is there something wrong with that?

Quote
Are you worried that you're the one who looks like a common, cursing bully?

Are you worried that piano duals and bragging and "playoff challenges" are not what music is about?

So far, you seem like what is wrong with piano, not what's right... bragging, one upmanship, exaggerated if not downright false claims.


So let’s see, in one thread about “sound projection”, as a response to claims “You never play quietly” and “Pianissimo means less loud, not quiet” I mentioned that: “the sound projection has nothing to do with quantity (i.e. loudness”), but rather is a matter of quality”. After that I gave list of some factors, which affect the sound projection in a certain environment (clearly, playing in class and playing in a 2 thousand seats concert hall is very different).

What happens next, you come and the very first thing say that this is a “snobby nonsense” and start talking about “sound production” alleging that “people as myself don’t realize this", attributing to me some ridiculous claims about “mystical interpretation” and that I have to “stick with Lang Lang and Liberace”, saying my claim is “simply wrong”.

I suggested you to re-read what I wrote, and suggested that in fact for me INTERPRETATION AND PERFORMANCE is not about “mystery and fiction”, but rather has to do with “science and craft”.

Your words in the next reply were: “Are you dim witted?”, “put your foot in your substantial mouth”, followed by a long bunch of sarcasm, followed by “snob”, “dilettante”, “pure puffery”, “talk and no walk”, “idiotic claim”, “dabbler, a fraud, an arrogant poser”.

Next you started bringing total lies that “others have noted” that I am snob and dilettante, that I said that “sound PRODUCTION” has nothing to do with loudness”, but is a complex…”, that somebody said “I am not the real deal”…

So just by mere looking at the language you are constantly using this is clear who is a cursing bully and who gives false claims.

It is clear that you are just picking the fight, and it really does not matter what I say (or for that matter what other, rather respected members say about myself)--you keep coming with new and new lies and allegations.
 
Since we both heard Horowitz live (indeed, it is very different from recordings), I asked you a question about his projection in pianissimo, piano, and mezzo forte. That could put some more light on the discussion about “sound projection”, or at least, define semantics. Instead, you chose to pick “your weapons”. So consider you won—congratulations!

Best wishes, M

Offline marik1

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #60 on: May 05, 2012, 07:08:30 PM »


A number of times I've seen him make incredibly snotty comments to others, like the Russian pianist a few weeks ago -- Alexander Peskanov: The Russian School.

Out of the blue here's Marik shooting his arrogant mouth off.

Marik's telling Mr Peskanov his training is not really Russian, that what he's doing is not really of the Russian School, and on and on.


I see that you posted, while I was typing...

So, since you are constantly changing the story, I am still unclear, is it about my as you say "idiotic claim" of "sound production", is it about me as you say, "being unable to provide support to my claims", or is it all about Mr. Peskanov? Or is it all about "nobility" of your mission to show what kind of "evil" I am, and your constant digging and bringing up new lies and accommodating facts at your convenience?

As for Mr. Peskanov, I was very clear with which part I was dissatisfied and put off--his extremely mechanical demonstration of his "regiment", followed by no less mechanical rendition of Chopin Etude Op.25 no.12. That kind of demonstration clearly gives distorted and incorrect idea what Russian School is all about.

Since for most part of my life I was trained in Russian School and studied in Moscow Conservatory, as well as since big part of my doctoral dissertation (and I don't care if it sounds like a bragging) was dedicated to Russian Piano School, I believe, I have some basic idea about the topic. If Peskanov played like that during his lesson with any professor of Moscow Conservatory (which I still believe is a foundation of Russian Pianistic School) he would've been kicked out the class--take it or leave it.

So that was not about his undeniable piano mastery, virtuosity, or where and with whom he played. That was about that particular demonstration, which (contrary to his claim) had nothing to do with Russian School, and in that respects to me the word "Russian" in the title sounded rather like a marketing trick.

When later, out of "benefit of doubt" I gave it a second chance and listened to his other recordings, I found some quite beautiful and I gladly posted how much I enjoyed them. So no, I do not "know everything there is to know" and I keep learning new things every single day of my life.

But it seems you have already formed your opinion, so enjoy yourself.

M

Offline robson

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #61 on: May 05, 2012, 07:12:03 PM »
pts1 and marik you guys both went too far with this, no sense to fight - it's obvious we cannot completely dismiss some benefits of hannon/cherny exercises because when you do them willy-nilly you'll get good technique, no question about it. The point is there are better more effective and less boring ways to do this.

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #62 on: May 05, 2012, 07:37:38 PM »
it's obvious we cannot completely dismiss some benefits of hannon/cherny exercises because when you do them willy-nilly you'll get good technique, no question about it.

Indeed, wisely spoken ;D

You can also get good technique from peeling oranges, defrosting a freezer and scratching your arse.

Anything that gives the fingers a good workout really.

Thal
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline pts1

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #63 on: May 05, 2012, 08:17:32 PM »
Quote
You can also get good technique from peeling oranges...

Yes... Oranges! That's the Ticket!

If its good enough for Lang its good enough for me!


Offline robson

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #64 on: May 05, 2012, 08:45:20 PM »
and this guys never played czerny/hanon and he's the best virtuoso on Earth...


Offline pianowolfi

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #65 on: May 05, 2012, 08:50:03 PM »

So that was not about his undeniable piano mastery, or virtuosity, but that his demonstration was not exactly attribute of Russian School, contrary to his claim, and to me the word "Russian" in the title sounded rather like a marketing trick.

When later, after "benefit of doubt" I gave it a second chance and listened to his other recordings I found them quite beautiful and I gladly posted that I enjoyed them. So no, I do not know everything there is to know and I keep learning new things every single day of my life.

It seems you have already formed your opinion, so enjoy yourself.

M

Seconded!

I have followed that particular discussion as well.
True masters never claim to be perfect. Only wannabe masters use to do so.


Offline pianowolfi

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #66 on: May 05, 2012, 08:56:10 PM »
I wonder if "Pts1" is a reincarnation of "stevebob"  ::)

Offline marik1

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #67 on: May 05, 2012, 09:17:09 PM »
I wonder if "Pts1" is a reincarnation of "stevebob"  ::)

Even if not, numerous low level insults directed to quite a few members of this board, use of language (more appropriate for bull rangers), inability to follow his (hers?) own logic, and general lack of civilized manners, certainly do look familiar.

And after that saying: "That's really the point of all this in the first place, is it not... being nice, supportive and helpful?"

What a hypocrisy, what a joke!

Best, M  

Offline pianowolfi

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #68 on: May 05, 2012, 09:24:27 PM »
Even if not, numerous low level insults directed to quite a few members of this board, use of language (more appropriate for bull rangers), inability to follow his (hers?) own logic, and general lack of civilized manners, certainly do look familiar.

Best, M  

Indeed yes.

Offline pts1

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #69 on: May 06, 2012, 02:12:04 AM »
.

Offline marik1

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #70 on: May 06, 2012, 04:42:42 AM »
No, just you, my boy.

Well, this "my boy" (and later “lad”) speaks for itself and rather about you. But no, your incredible arrogance has been directed not only at me--it is enough to look at your thread about "Greatest sound of all":

http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=45820.msg499694#msg499694

where you accuse entire board in "lack of intelligence, imagination, humor, and curiosity", and talk about "dismissive imperiousness".

Or how about disdainful "boys", you were addressing to some members (not me) of this board on a few occasions? Or should I post some other undermining/sarcastic remarks directed at the members (again, not me) once any slightest thing is not to your liking?

So, please don't lie again.

Marik, lad, sounds like you've described your own hypocritical vulgar, crude self to a "T" with your own words.

PTS, people are much more intelligent than you give them credit for. It is just enough to look at the language you are constantly using (including in this message) to see who is vulgar and who is crude. And after that you are talking "we have to be nice and supportive"  ::) ;D ;D ;D


You've done SO well on your own besmirching your questionable and imaginative reputation, credentials and accomplishments that you need no one's help.

And no doubt you'll claim I've somehow manipulated your above quotes and that you meant something utterly different. (Honestly, I'm mostly just bored with you -- you're not particularly interesting, and there's absolutely nothing to gain by carrying on.)

But I imagine your fans will forgive your crude, hypocritical and incredibly arrogant behavior, so not to worry.

Lie again. You know nothing about me, so how can you speak about my credentials, reputation, and accomplishments? But no, my reputation, credentials, and accomplishments are not questionable and imaginative, but well documented and very present, with excellent references on a highest level from some greatest artists of our time.

And yes, the source of your undermining “I'm mostly just bored with you -- you're not particularly interesting” is very clear, and I have no any illusion about that. Indeed, from many posts of yours it is quite transparent that you would like to be the "main expert", "the king" of this board, but clearly you do not even have enough knowledge to hold any descent discussion above “softer-louder” and “it is all about speed of hammers” level of thinking/talking about music. It is more than understandable why every single time you deliberately bring EVERY SINGLE serious discussion with me on any serious topic to the level of cheap personal insults, trying to put all the dirt on me you could possibly make up.

So what about "sound projection" above your "softer-louder" theory? What about "Russian School" you were so relentless about? What about aspects of performance, teaching, and their elements about which you did not find better thing than b*tching?

Ding--dong---anybody home? ::)

Yes, the source of your hatred towards me is very transparent. But it is certainly entertaining--I had quite a bit of fun.

Not sure what my fans (if any) would forgive me, but it seems you even did not gain any single fan on this board, or even one single person here to say one single good word about you—what an accomplishment, you are really something!


As for me, I'm through with you, reminding myself of one of my favorite and most apt sayings:

"Never wrestle in the mud with a pig -- it just gets you dirty and makes the pig happy."

Adieu, my porcine friend.

Jeez, you cannot even say "adieu" in a more or less decent way!!! But thank you for your good advise--enjoy your mud.

Best wishes, M

Offline marik1

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #71 on: May 06, 2012, 06:40:01 AM »
pts1 and marik you guys both went too far with this, no sense to fight - it's obvious we cannot completely dismiss some benefits of hannon/cherny exercises because when you do them willy-nilly you'll get good technique, no question about it. The point is there are better more effective and less boring ways to do this.


Don't worry Robson, we will get there... just hang in...  ;D

Best, M

Offline keyboardclass

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #72 on: May 06, 2012, 07:25:36 AM »
I wonder if "Pts1" is a reincarnation of "stevebob"  ::)
Let's hope so.

Offline Mayla

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #73 on: May 09, 2012, 02:57:53 AM »
.
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline robson

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #74 on: May 09, 2012, 04:02:49 AM »
Ding Dong, anybody home?  ;D

Honey, i'm home!   ;D

Offline pts1

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #75 on: May 09, 2012, 03:34:41 PM »
Quote
Ding Dong, anybody home?  

I think the "fat lady has sung" on this particular thread!   :-*



Offline pts1

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #76 on: May 09, 2012, 04:11:01 PM »
Oh, and just so you'll all know, I sent Marik a PM apologizing for the childish and stupid remarks
I made to him.

So unless any of you are wanting to say something about Hanon vs Czerny, this thread is dead.

And not just merely dead, but most sincerely genuinely dead.

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #77 on: May 09, 2012, 09:24:36 PM »
It will rise from the grave again. Threads like this always do.

Thal
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Offline robson

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #78 on: May 09, 2012, 09:46:35 PM »
It will rise from the grave again. Threads like this always do.

Thal

bingo!  BTW who is Hanon Czerny?  I mean which is the first name?  ;D

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #79 on: May 09, 2012, 10:11:12 PM »
After reasonably intense practise sessions, I have just played the Czerny Les Charmes de L'Amitie to a 3rd rate standard and it has given my fingers (especially the right hand) a damned good workout. However, I wonder if I would have played it so well if I had not been doing 15 minute Hanon sessions for a few weeks.

My teacher once told me that exercises do not have to be musical, but it is more pleasant if they are. I have never once enjoyed Hanon, but Czerny has provided me with endless joy from his little etudes to his major works.

Thal
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society

Online ted

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #80 on: May 09, 2012, 11:53:10 PM »
Just keep right on playing whatever generates enjoyment then Thal. "Higher thought", tradition, anti-tradition, pedagogy, "shoulds" and "ought tos", arguments about what is profound and what is shallow, what other people might think, what musical society says is right, what famous people thought or did - flag the lot away. In the end personal happiness in music and at the instrument is all that really matters. The older I get the more this becomes apparent.
"We're all bums when the wagon comes." - Waller

Offline pts1

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #81 on: May 10, 2012, 01:41:50 AM »
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Just keep right on playing whatever generates enjoyment then Thal. "Higher thought", tradition, anti-tradition, pedagogy, "shoulds" and "ought tos", arguments about what is profound and what is shallow, what other people might think, what musical society says is right, what famous people thought or did - flag the lot away. In the end personal happiness in music and at the instrument is all that really matters.

Right on!

Nobody's gettin' outta here alive, so might as well drop all the snooty pretense and try and get some enjoyment out of this thing we call "life".

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The older I get the more this becomes apparent

Double Right On!

As Mark Twain wisely quipped, "youth is wasted on the young."

P.S.

Any of you people who think you're "saving the planet" by trying to cut down on your CO2 and methane emissions, relax, take a deep breath and let it out, eat some beans and....

Despite what one of those expert authority types has said about it like Al Gore -- I've personally  decided that CO2 is really, really good for plants and causes them to put more oxygen in the air which is rumored to be good for the air breathers.

My personal theory is that gigantic ball of flaming nuclear hell in the sky we call "THE SUN", has much more to do with hot weather than anything else

Many well credentialed global warming scientists with lots of letters after their names have said this is not so, but I don't believe them, Ludite that I am.

On hot days -- out of primitive fear and frustration -- I've been known to chuck home made spears (hewn with flint and sticks)  at the sun and though I think I might have hit it a few times, it nevertheless didn't "go out" and just kept raging with heat.

Thank the Mother Earth Goddess for the natural wonder of air conditioning.

Besides, the sun is supposed to turn into a Red Giant one day and fry all of us all, so what do you warmers have to say about that!?

Astronomers and astrologists have told us this is so, therefore I'm sticking with the hard facts.

So you see, all the mindless Czerny and Hanon practice will do you about as much good as spear chucking so why not stop it along with all the recyling and have some fun while you've still got a chance?

Just sayin'

Offline j_menz

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #82 on: May 10, 2012, 01:54:17 AM »
Ludite that I am.

If you're going to be a Luddite, you should learn to spell it. Just sayin'.  ::)
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline ajspiano

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #83 on: May 10, 2012, 02:05:58 AM »
I propose that for anyone who is..

presently concerned about whether czerny or hanon will benifit them more
 and
paralised with the uncertainty of not knowing what to practice

...

go play either czerny, hanon, or both, or something else, or something else and czerny and hanon..

the critical factor being that you play something at all, and what ever you choose be mindful that everything you play will benifit you technically and musically if you consciously address technique and music when playing it..  and stop looking for a quick fix solution that you can mindlessly drive through expecting to improve without deliberate thought.

Offline pts1

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #84 on: May 10, 2012, 02:33:04 AM »
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If you're going to be a Luddite, you should learn to spell it. Just sayin'. 

Heavens to Betsy, NO!

I am only a JL -- Junior Ludite-- and as such we are not allowed to use both d's for pity's sake!

There are a whole slew of requirements if one wishes to be a 2d Luddite, not the least of which is to play the entire Hanon Studies from memory before a panel of whacked on their knuckles trained 2d Piano Playing Luddites (PPLs) and I would not wish this on my worst enemy!

Ignorance, as they say, is sometimes bliss. ;D

Offline j_menz

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #85 on: May 10, 2012, 03:06:50 AM »
and stop looking for a quick fix solution

Oh AJ, That would kill of soooooo many threads here!  :o
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline ajspiano

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #86 on: May 10, 2012, 03:34:45 AM »
Oh AJ, That would kill of soooooo many threads here!  :o

I believe that practicing the hanon exercises for 2 hours daily, for a period of no less or more than 3 months is sufficient to develop the skills required to perform any technical difficulty found in the advanced repetoire. All beginners should do this, its boring but invaluable - read a book during to help pass the time.

..Discuss.

Offline pts1

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #87 on: May 10, 2012, 04:06:54 AM »
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I believe that practicing the hanon exercises for 2 hours daily, for a period of no less or more than 3 months is sufficient

Do you realize how much valuable intelligence data the U.S. could get from the terrorists in Guantanamo if they'd adopt this strategy?

Seriously, though, I do think that practicing Hanon too much can detach a person from musicality, and even working on legitimate piano pieces is in danger of being approached in the same boring, mechanical way. At least that happened to me.

At one time I did practice Hanon like crazy, but I wouldn't recommend it now.


If you practice say four hours a day, and work on the difficulties in the music itself making little exercises out of them which accurately utilize the correct physical movements, I think this will do it for you. Include with this musically practiced scales, trills, arpeggios, double thirds, etc.,  say for 10 minutes at a time, 3 or 4 times in your practice section, and I think this is sufficient, all the while not destroying musical intentions.

And once you learn a technique -- say scale playing -- really well, then you can play scales in any music you encounter. IOW, the technique transfers.

Be aware, IMHO, it takes more effort/longer to learn a technique than to maintain it.

What I do now is I'll start with a few scales -- 5 min or so -- and then I find I like to play a few Two Part Inventions, then some preludes and fugues a bit. Then I'll work on music, and interspersed in this, I'll practice scales, tremolos, trills, etc... not too long, but 10 or 15 minutes... then its back to the music.

And this serves me pretty well and I don't get bored.

How about you?

Offline j_menz

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #88 on: May 10, 2012, 04:14:21 AM »
I believe that practicing the hanon exercises for 2 hours daily, for a period of no less or more than 3 months is sufficient to develop the skills required to perform any technical difficulty found in the advanced repetoire. All beginners should do this, its boring but invaluable - read a book during to help pass the time.

..Discuss.

1) I strongly suspect that this contravenes the UN Convention on the Elimination of Torture.

2) The greatest difficulties in the advanced repertoire are, in any case, not technical but musical.

3) Were I to follow your advice, I'd have to memorise Hanon. GASP!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!  :o :P :P :P
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline ajspiano

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #89 on: May 10, 2012, 04:28:41 AM »
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work on the difficulties in the music itself making little exercises out of them which accurately utilize the correct physical movements

This is in line with my approach. I typically improvise in the style of the piece as well, which is kind of the same thing.

My own hanon experience was negative, i was given it without instruction and I was too young (9 or 10 years old I think maybe 11, and studying around grade 4/5 level)/clueless/naive etc. ...I felt strain in my 4-5 immediately and thought that was good, that my fingers would get stronger and deliberately played it in the way that created the fatigue, pushing through it for extended practice sessions leaving my hands burning.

This was totally pointless and damaging of course, and certainly didn't result in the fact that I can now play advanced rep fluently and without fatigue.

That aside I don't believe that the exercises are bad, but if you're not shown how to play/practice them effectively they are a waste of time - but i also believe that to be the case with everything we choose to play. I would never seriously recommend hanon to someone via a web-forum because I have no way to properly explain and assess whether that person will practice it in a way that benefits them.

Offline ajspiano

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #90 on: May 10, 2012, 04:35:28 AM »
1) I strongly suspect that this contravenes the UN Convention on the Elimination of Torture.
if it doesnt then an amendment is required.

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2) The greatest difficulties in the advanced repertoire are, in any case, not technical but musical.
perhaps, I don't entirely agree, but that's my own personal experience - musicality has never been something I've found difficult under any circumstance, so long as I have the physical capability to produce the effect. Which makes them one and the same thing anyway.
Quote
3) Were I to follow your advice, I'd have to memorise Hanon. GASP!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!  :o :P :P :P
this is the definitive issue obviously - that would be a real waste of time/energy.

Offline p2u_

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #91 on: May 10, 2012, 04:45:07 AM »
read a book during to help pass the time.
Hanon's exercises are very effective if played artistically beautifully; too difficult a task though for most to read a book while trying to make something out of it. Mindless execution of those exercises will take you nowhere...

Paul
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Offline j_menz

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #92 on: May 10, 2012, 04:51:07 AM »
Hanon's exercises are very effective if played artistically beautifully

I'd love to hear you post something that achieves this.  :o

Forget Feux Follets in octaves, Chopin 10/2 with your feet, or the whole OC note perfect from memory by a chimpanzee - that would be the most impressive pianistic feat EVER!
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline ajspiano

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #93 on: May 10, 2012, 05:00:51 AM »
Mindless execution of those exercises will take you nowhere...

It never ceases to amaze me that people think I'm being serious with such suggestions..

Offline j_menz

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #94 on: May 10, 2012, 05:04:56 AM »
musicality has never been something I've found difficult under any circumstance, so long as I have the physical capability to produce the effect.

Would that countless competition performers were equally skilled.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline p2u_

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #95 on: May 10, 2012, 05:15:09 AM »
I'd love to hear you post something that achieves this.  :o
For starters, listen to this:

Now ain't that real music, huh?
P.S.: Can you play one tone and express different emotions?

It never ceases to amaze me that people think I'm being serious with such suggestions..
I knew you were kidding, ajspiano. Just playing along. ;)

Paul
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Offline ajspiano

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #96 on: May 10, 2012, 05:21:59 AM »
P.S.: Can you play one tone and express different emotions?
I knew you were kidding, ajspiano. Just playing along. ;)

Well I apologise then, I never know anymore..  I've seen people take suggestions of adding fishing weights to the fingers seriously.

Offline j_menz

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #97 on: May 10, 2012, 05:24:16 AM »
For starters, listen to this:

Now ain't that real music, huh?

 :D  If only Hanon had written like that! Is that by Cziffra?  Pretty cool - I'd play it.

P.S.: Can you play one tone and express different emotions?

You mean one tone, once? then no, just different volumes. One tone repeatedly, then yes but in a somewhat limited range.
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility. There are so few of us left" -- Oscar Levant

Offline lousyplayer

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #98 on: May 10, 2012, 09:43:14 AM »
Indeed, wisely spoken ;D

You can also get good technique from peeling oranges, defrosting a freezer and scratching your arse.

Anything that gives the fingers a good workout really.

Thal

you forgot picking your nose!

Offline thalbergmad

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Re: Czerny V. Hanon??
«Reply #99 on: May 10, 2012, 11:04:06 AM »
you forgot picking your nose!

Well, that is more of a rotation exercise.

Thal
Curator/Director
Concerto Preservation Society