How would somebody playing Chopin like Cortot did be recieved today?

[lelle]

My interest in this pianist has soared recently, and I just love Alfred Cortot's Chopin playing. It sounds so spontaneous, almost improvised, yet still his interpretations manage to capture the scope and feeling of the work, keeping it all cohesive, despite his manner of pushing and pulling the tempo all the time etc.

I see a lot of comments from people who doesn't like him who say that he uses too much rubato or that Chopin "should" be played in a more restrained, even manner, without big and "too expressive" phrasing. However, after having grown accustomed to Cortot's way of playing I feel that I find more and more modern recordings very sterile and boring, and very samey (can't tell pianists apart), while he has an instantly recognizable personality in his playing. I'm not saying Cortot is the only alternative though, there are a lot of great recordings of the Ballades out there that I love.

But onto the topic, what would happen if more pianists started to play more in his "unconventional" manner? How would critics and audience react to this spontaneous, improvised and sensitive way of playing Chopin? Would the pianist be dismissed as an idiot who forgot to bring his metronome and rejected for not following the "conventional" way of playing Chopin? Would it hurt to return a bit to the manners of his (Cortot's) era of pianism?

I might sound ignorant but I'm just curious

[ramseytheii]

My interest in this pianist has soared recently, and I just love Alfred Cortot's Chopin playing. It sounds so spontaneous, almost improvised, yet still his interpretations manage to capture the scope and feeling of the work, keeping it all cohesive, despite his manner of pushing and pulling the tempo all the time etc.

I see a lot of comments from people who doesn't like him who say that he uses too much rubato or that Chopin "should" be played in a more restrained, even manner, without big and "too expressive" phrasing. However, after having grown accustomed to Cortot's way of playing I feel that I find more and more modern recordings very sterile and boring, and very samey (can't tell pianists apart), while he has an instantly recognizable personality in his playing. I'm not saying Cortot is the only alternative though, there are a lot of great recordings of the Ballades out there that I love.

But onto the topic, what would happen if more pianists started to play more in his "unconventional" manner? How would critics and audience react to this spontaneous, improvised and sensitive way of playing Chopin? Would the pianist be dismissed as an idiot who forgot to bring his metronome and rejected for not following the "conventional" way of playing Chopin? Would it hurt to return a bit to the manners of his (Cortot's) era of pianism?

I might sound ignorant but I'm just curious

I like your question, but just on instinct, I reject the notion that those who play freely, or with personality, are ignored these days. 

To best answer it, you should ask yourself, who are the highest regarded Chopin players of today, and how is their playing?  In other words, start at the top, not at what a teacher said, or what you heard in a masterclass, or what the latest winner of Blah Blah International Competition plays.

I suspect you may find, taking this approach, that performers are not as constrained as you think.  We're so bombarded with recordings of the same pieces, it is easy to forget the all those are going to be forgotten, and only the best will stand out.

how many pianists were playing at the time of Cortot?  Not as many as today, probably, but a damn lot.  History filtered them out, leaving only a few of his generation to stand the test of time.

That said, my personal view of Cortot is a bon vivant who happened to play piano.  He obviously didn't kill himself practicing, and made up for it with a superlatively suave and charming personality (both at the keyboard and away), and with manipulating the technology of the day brilliantly.

I think it was Zimmerman who said he listened to remastered Cortot recordings, only to find that he was faking his way through the entire set of Chopin etudes.  But then he realized, that it was part of Cortot's genius, to play to the primitive microphones in such a way that you couldn't tell, and that the thrust of the music was so powerful and clear.

About "returning to manners:" the conventions that spring up in any era are a product of that era.  I've heard people advocate breaking the bass note and treble, just because it was done in the past.  That is not a sufficient reason.  Anything we do for expressive effect has to be able to be understood by the people we are playing to.  Just to imitate recordings is really not enough.

Walter Ramsey

[stevebob]

Perhaps the discussion shouldn't be limited to interpretations of Chopin.  How would performances of other composers' works by pianists who play with Cortot's characteristics be perceived?

[gyzzzmo]

I think that somebody who plays pieces differently than most has no problems these days. Especially with the easy accessability of the music compared to the last century.
And Cortot might have had a strange approach, his performances DO make sense and that is (i think) the criterium of a good interpretation.

Personally, although i think his performances are great, it is definitely not my style wich why i dont like it. Mostly because he even changes notes.

Gyzzzmo

[omar_roy]

I think that by today's standards, Cortot's playing would be regarded as "too much."

He was a very free personality who wasn't afraid to use rubato to its fullest extent, many times crossing the line between what is considered "tasteful" and being "schmoozy."  I think that on the whole, we can learn a lot from him.  It certainly wouldn't do any good to simply try and copy him, but I think that for the most part, we can all be a little more "free" and "risquee" with our playing.

Why not take a little more time and milk every bit of sound out of a cadence?  Why not let our fingers run away from us every now and then?  It's all part of the experience.

For example, when I play Chopin's Ballade in G Minor for myself at the end of a long day of practicing, i'll do things that I normally wouldn't do.  Sometimes I'll really just let things go and rip through the coda with reckless abandon because then I truly feel the wild energy and the true meaning of "presto con fuoco" and I try to convey that same energy when I perform it at a slightly slower tempo.

Now, if you want examples of the most exquisite use of rubato, listen to Rachmaninoff playing Chopin.  So beautiful you almost feel guilty for listening to it.

[lelle]

I like your question, but just on instinct, I reject the notion that those who play freely, or with personality, are ignored these days. 

To best answer it, you should ask yourself, who are the highest regarded Chopin players of today, and how is their playing?  In other words, start at the top, not at what a teacher said, or what you heard in a masterclass, or what the latest winner of Blah Blah International Competition plays.

You just addressed one of the points I was thinking about that I didn't mention. I've been listening to recordings of Chopin's 2nd ballade and so far it's only been Cortot that's really “done” it for me. Considering how Pogerelich played it at the 1980 Chopin competition, I am wondering how it would've been recieved if Cortot walked in under a different name and performed it instead. Aren't competitions a good way to get your name out there in any case? If you play in a unique manner but nobody hears of you, your performances will be lost in time anyway.

Kissin is a modern pianist, among others, that many say play Chopin really well. I don't dislike Kissin, but I think he lacks that “extra” thing even though many regard him as a fantastic Chopin interpreter. It is of course just a subjective preference based on the relatively few recordings I've heard of him, though.

That said, my personal view of Cortot is a bon vivant who happened to play piano.  He obviously didn't kill himself practicing, and made up for it with a superlatively suave and charming personality (both at the keyboard and away),

Haha, that's an eloquent way of putting it! Cortot can indeed sound very sloppy sometimes and he has some very bad recordings that I don't like but when he is good he is brilliant.

I think it was Zimmerman who said he listened to remastered Cortot recordings, only to find that he was faking his way through the entire set of Chopin etudes.  But then he realized, that it was part of Cortot's genius, to play to the primitive microphones in such a way that you couldn't tell, and that the thrust of the music was so powerful and clear.

Oh cool, I'd be very interested in reading about this if you got a link or a source!

I think that by today's standards, Cortot's playing would be regarded as "too much."

He was a very free personality who wasn't afraid to use rubato to its fullest extent, many times crossing the line between what is considered "tasteful" and being "schmoozy."  I think that on the whole, we can learn a lot from him.  It certainly wouldn't do any good to simply try and copy him, but I think that for the most part, we can all be a little more "free" and "risquee" with our playing.

I agree about being more “free”. It would be interesting to investigate why what was more conventional in his time is regarded as “too much” today. What has influenced public opinion in this direction, and, hypothetically, could this preference sway back to a more “free” manner of playing again (I'm not saying that it doesn't exist today), and in that case, how would that happen?

Why not take a little more time and milk every bit of sound out of a cadence?  Why not let our fingers run away from us every now and then?  It's all part of the experience.

For example, when I play Chopin's Ballade in G Minor for myself at the end of a long day of practicing, i'll do things that I normally wouldn't do.  Sometimes I'll really just let things go and rip through the coda with reckless abandon because then I truly feel the wild energy and the true meaning of "presto con fuoco"

And this is how I want to hear performances and recordings. I to often feel in recordings that the performer is holding back and playing it safe, and it probably is because of retakes until there are no mistakes. I could take a few finger slips as long as they don't audibly ruin the experience if it means that the performance will sound more spontaneous and “alive”.

Now, if you want examples of the most exquisite use of rubato, listen to Rachmaninoff playing Chopin.  So beautiful you almost feel guilty for listening to it.

Yeah he is very good!

[gyzzzmo]

I suppose the real question here is... How far can somebody go in changing a piece for his own interpretation?

[thalbergmad]

As far as he thinks is required I guess.

Personally, I would love to bring back to life some of our great masters of the past and enter them into a modern competition. The results would be fascinating. My guess is that the liberty takers would not get very far.

Cortot might get into the 2nd round, Rosenthal would probably be shot.

Thal

[pianist1976]

That said, my personal view of Cortot is a bon vivant who happened to play piano.  He obviously didn't kill himself practicing, and made up for it with a superlatively suave and charming personality (both at the keyboard and away), and with manipulating the technology of the day brilliantly.

I friendly disagree It's true that Cortot left many wrong notes in his recordings, too much even for a time when note perfect recordings exigence hasn't came yet and when studio cut & paste technique didn't exist already. But in my opinion this wasn't due to a lack of practice. Cortot had a spectacular technique, which is evidenced in the exquisite command and mastering of very difficult works which cannot be played without a good technique and very hard work. The countless hours of work are also evidenced in the perfectly calculated singing tone and the almost perfect polyphonic equilibrium which, in my opinion, cannot be improvised. I think that Cortot marvelous playing was a mixture between music imagination and passion of the moment plus a really hard background work to prepare the basis of the interpretation.

Claudio Arrau (ref. Joseph Horowitz's "Conversations with Arrau") opined that Cortot really practiced many hours but his problem with wrong notes was kind of psychological.

[omar_roy]

As far as he thinks is required I guess.

Personally, I would love to bring back to life some of our great masters of the past and enter them into a modern competition. The results would be fascinating. My guess is that the liberty takers would not get very far.

Cortot might get into the 2nd round, Rosenthal would probably be shot.

Thal

I once asked why I couldn't take liberties to the same extent that Cortot or Horowitz did.

The answer I got was "Because you are neither Cortot nor Horowitz."

[pianist1976]

I once asked why I couldn't take liberties to the same extent that Cortot or Horowitz did.

The answer I got was "Because you are neither Cortot nor Horowitz."

That reminds me a Hofmann's anecdote about his teacher:

"[Anton Rubinstein always insisted] that I should play everything just as it was written! [...] A pedant he certainly was, a stickler for the letter-incredibly so, specially when one considered the liberties he took when he played the same works! Once I called his attention modestly to this seeming paradox, and he answered: 'When you are as old as I am now you may do as I do-if you can.'"

Hofmann grew as old as his master but in my opinion remained faithful to the initial advice and didn't try to took many liberties in his interpretations.

[pianist1976]

Perhaps the discussion shouldn't be limited to interpretations of Chopin.  How would performances of other composers' works by pianists who play with Cortot's characteristics be perceived?

Interesting question. Recently have been issued some unofficial recordings taken at Cortot master classes and such playing Bach and Beethoven among others. While I really admire Cortot (he's one of my favorite pianists) I don't think his Bach and Beethoven are totally "correct" (please, note the quotes). In my very humble opinion (I'm taking the audacity to criticize one of the greatest) sound a bit romantized in the hands of the master (too much rubato for been Beethoven's Op 22, for example) but also have their unimitable qualities, of course.

P.S. Talking about other composers, In my opinion his Schumann is excellent.

[ramseytheii]

Hofmann grew as old as his master but in my opinion remained faithful to the initial advice and didn't try to took many liberties in his interpretations.

!!!!!!!!!!!

Walter Ramsey

[lelle]

As far as he thinks is required I guess.

Personally, I would love to bring back to life some of our great masters of the past and enter them into a modern competition. The results would be fascinating. My guess is that the liberty takers would not get very far.

Cortot might get into the 2nd round, Rosenthal would probably be shot.

Thal

lol. That's kind of sad though. People with great imagination and passion in their playing being set aside for people that... well... what factors actually do earn you a win these days?

I once asked why I couldn't take liberties to the same extent that Cortot or Horowitz did.

The answer I got was "Because you are neither Cortot nor Horowitz."

That's kind of dumb. If you got an imaginative idea and you can motivate that it makes sense making references to the score or general architecture of the work, what kind of harmonic progressions there are etc. then I don't see a problem doing it. I don't think you should play something a certain way just because Horowitz or Cortot did it though, but as long as you can argue for and motivate your choices and explain why YOU think it will make the piece more effective than the original indications, it has at least some merit. Then of course interpretative choices can always be discussed and changed.

(One interesting example is Cortot's playing of Chopin's 3rd ballade. He plays a melodious section that is marked as piano and sotto voce (with a lot of 16th notes in the left hand) in mf to f and with a more Agitato feeling, and it actually works really well)

Interesting question. Recently have been issued some unofficial recordings taken at Cortot master classes and such playing Bach and Beethoven among others. While I really admire Cortot (he's one of my favorite pianists) I don't think his Bach and Beethoven are totally "correct" (please, note the quotes). In my very humble opinion (I'm taking the audacity to criticize one of the greatest) sound a bit romantized in the hands of the master (too much rubato for been Beethoven's Op 22, for example) but also have their unimitable qualities, of course.

P.S. Talking about other composers, In my opinion his Schumann is excellent.

I think Cortot works best with romantic pieces. Even though I've heard Beethoven himself changed tempo with the intensity of the music I like it the most when people play him more rhythmically. Assuming that this is correct it can always be discussed if these kind of tempo changes should be “allowed” in beethoven's works just because he did it. But it would sound very odd to my ears.