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Topic: contrasting teaching styles... benefits of each?  (Read 5775 times)

Offline m1469

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contrasting teaching styles... benefits of each?
on: August 04, 2004, 07:04:26 PM
I have been busy with a piano camp this week and last night was able to attend a lecture covering aspects of technical training for beginning pianists.  What I find interesting is her ideas about how to instill in beginners "proper" technique from the very first stages of learning.

Her most predominant emphasis was that of being interested in and attentive to, being one who is in the business of prevention, rather than correction.  I would also like to state, just for the record, that she also stated clearly that only the absolute best musicians and most skilled teachers should be teaching beginners because these beginning steps will lay the foundation for all future endeavors.

She has a series of 11 steps to take in teaching proper technique (of which I can elaborate on should there be a desire) and states that these steps are essential throughout all levels of playing.  Furthermore, that if somebody is having technical challenges (at whatever stage in the game), it goes back to these initial steps.

My point here is, she will spend however many lessons it takes to accomplish these tasks in order.  The first of which is that of correct posture at and distance from the piano.  Then wrist exercises, then the playing of one note, etc etc.  

In short, she does not teach any little song or piece in the beginning to send them home with.  She wants every sound they learn how to make to be with the uttmost proper technique; unobstructed and beautiful.

I question how attentive a student can be without making music from the get go.  Also, I have read other posts here where teachers have stated the importance of sending students home with a piece that will be impressive right from the very beginning.  And, I wonder if sending students home playing something will end up causing more need for correction later on down the road.

What are people's thoughts on this particular idea of teaching proper technique from the beginning vs. a short piece or song?

Again, I am willing to elaborate on her ideas if there is  a need.


m1469  
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline Hmoll

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Re: contrasting teaching styles... benefits of eac
Reply #1 on: August 04, 2004, 11:05:38 PM
When you have a chance, I'd like to read more in detail about those 11 steps.

Thanks
"I am sitting in the smallest room of my house. I have your review before me. In a moment it will be behind me!" -- Max Reger

Offline bernhard

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Re: contrasting teaching styles... benefits of eac
Reply #2 on: August 05, 2004, 02:40:08 AM
I will second Hmoll! :)
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline m1469

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Re: contrasting teaching styles... benefits of eac
Reply #3 on: August 05, 2004, 03:52:48 AM
First I will list the 12 steps and then explain in more detail...(I just noticed that are two "6's", so there are actually 12 steps)

1.  Sitting position; bring hand, place hand, take the       hand off; make one sound
2.  Sound fades---listen!  Recreate the sound.
3.  Rainbow.  Fingers 3,2,4.  Non legato: D-L (drop-lift)
4.  Legato: D-T-L (drop-transfer-lift).  Short slurs; two notes, three notes, four notes.
5.  Preparation for scales: 1-2-3-kiss
6.  Pianists' bread and butter
7.  Scales towards thumb.  Creating pattern.  Reason for fingering
8.  Away from thumb.  Maintaining pattern.
9.  Hand looks where it goes.
10.  Practicing scales musically: dynamics, articulation, members of the scale family.
11.  Arpeggio
12.  Chords

Okay, I will explain in separate posts because I am super tired and it is easier for me to deal with that way (and it may take a little while... porque yo tengo mucho informacion en mi cabeza!).

m1469

"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline m1469

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Re: contrasting teaching styles... benefits of eac
Reply #4 on: October 13, 2004, 07:58:22 AM
First, during the very first lesson, as I mentioned before, the child is not sent home with a little piece.  Instead, the first lesson is spent finding and developing proper posture, hand position, and wrist motion.  Not a sound is made until this wrist motion is firmly established.  These are the steps one should take in teaching this:

1.  Posture

2.  Hand position-  

Begin with the middle finger (I don't know why).  The teacher's LH is under the stuent's wrist, with fingers extended into palm.  Teacher's RH will support the finger joint.  Support it to the point where the student does not have to think about it.

Without making a sound, practice placing hand on piano and then coming up- all the while, teacher is the guiding influence and completely leading.  Developing proper wrist motion.  

When this is developed then the first sound is made.  This is of course done with the teacher's help.  The goal is to get the sound to be beautiful and unobstructed.  
Have them listen to sound for as long as it can be heard.  While in this position, with the key depressed, teacher is constantly supporting with his/her own hand as described above, manipulating as needed to assure the child's hand does not become tense.

Here, the child will begin ear training and learn to distinguish the vibrations (leading to the recognition of the vibrations of each individual note).  When the sound has died, the hand is lifted out of the piano keys with the proper wrist motion and is placed in lap.  The big emphasis here is in praising the child for creating a beautiful and unobstructed sound.

Okay, are there any comments on this first part?  What do you think?  This is all of number 1.  I will give more about the others later (hopefully sooner than last time).

m1469
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline bernhard

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Re: contrasting teaching styles... benefits of each?
Reply #5 on: October 15, 2004, 11:42:28 PM
I think this is an extremely interesting thread. I hope you continue supplying details.

I believe that as a philosophy what I‘ve heard so far has great merit. I am not so taken by its pedagogical potential.

From what I read so far, it seems to me is that this teacher has – no doubt after much study and experience – formulated a “logical system” that (to her at least) covers pretty much everything.

Logical systems like this one are fundamental. Every teacher should have one (not necessarily the same one). As students come with problems, our logical system should guide our solutions.

However, once a teacher has formulated a logical system there is an almost irresistible temptation to teach the logical system itself. And this, in my experience is a total disaster. I have discussed this at length elsewhere (I will try to find the thread – since the old links do not work anymore), but I will give a brief summary.

Thee are basically two very different teaching styles. One – which I follow – is the “pragmatic method”. The other one – which I disagree with – is the “logical method”.

The pragmatic method always starts from problems that the student experiences in a particular moment. If a student comes to you because he cannot figure out which fingering he will use in a certain section of his piece, giving him a lecture on chord voicing will not help him, even though knowledge of chord voicing maybe necessary to understand his fingering problem. On the other hand, supplying him with the fingering he needs will solve his immediate problem and lead to other problems. Because the problems are always meaningful, the solutions will be appreciated and taken on board. After a few years of relevant problem solving, the student will slowly see a pattern appear. What seemed like infinite problems and infinite solutions turns out to be easily organised into a logical system.

The logical method by contrast, reasons (what else could it do? It is after all a logical method) that instead of wasting time in myriads of isolate problems and their solutions one should start with the logic system that will cover all possible problems.

In the 60s well-meaning pedagogues decided to apply the logical method to the teaching of maths. Instead of starting with arithmetic (counting and subtracting – the basic problems any beginner can relate to), they started with set theory – the logical foundation of mathematics. Once the logic is in place they thought, they rest of maths will follow. Unfortunately set theory is a solution for a problem that no beginner can even start to fathom. Therefore the teaching has no meaning. No learning can possibly take place.

Now this is not advice for teachers. This is advice for learners. If you get some information (or a book) you cannot understand at all, ask yourself the following question: This book/information provides a solution for what problem exactly? If you succeed in answering this question (not an easy task by any means) you will understand everything. You will have found meaning where before there was only bafflement.

Now after this long detour, my comment about this Russian teacher method is very simple: It will never work as a general teaching method. But it may be one of the best logical systems ever – one of the reasons I hope you will continue to detail it.

For such a procedure to work you need a completely compliant child/beginner. Of course from the point of view of some teachers all they need is one Eugeny Kissin. So in the Russian context this teacher may well have had some success and produced a few virtuosi of superb musicality. In the Soviet days, a family would get a flat in Moscow if a child was found to be “gifted”. Piano playing (and Olympic Sports) was a passport for a better life. So everyone wanted their children to learn the piano. And believe me, if your apartment in Moscow depends on how your child will do in the conservatory, you will make him/her practice. This puts the teacher in a very privileged position: he can choose the student. If the student does not comply, or simply cannot learn through that particular procedure he is kicked out. Either you fit the mold or you are out. Given enough students, some will always exist that can succeed in spite of the method.

Now let us have a look at what this teacher suggests:

Quote
Begin with the middle finger (I don't know why).  The teacher's LH is under the stuent's wrist, with fingers extended into palm.  Teacher's RH will support the finger joint.  Support it to the point where the student does not have to think about it.

The reason for the emphasis on the middle finger is because anatomically the soundest position is when your middle finger is in line with the bones of the forearm. This is a very strong position and it is also very safe in that is will avoid injuries like carpal tunnel syndrome that result basically from lack of alignment.  Later, you will find out that an equally sound position is to align the little finger with the forearm bones.

Most beginners tend to misalign the fingers with the forearm bones and by doing so press the nerve centres on the wrist. They do not feel it, but it in the long term it may cause problems (not with western children who rarely practice – but with the Russian kids who must practice ten hours a day so that his parents do no loose the flat is a very real problem – so it must be sorted out straight away).

Now, I do not have students who practise ten hours a day, nor parents who will loose their houses if their children do not practise ten hours a day. So this is not a problem at all. If it is not a problem, no student is going to bother in following instructions that proved a solution for a problem they do not even know exists.

Moreover, in the UK in the moment there is a big zeitgeist that says you must not touch children. This is a serious problem, since I personally believe in a hands on approach. So how to deal with the alignment of fingers. Not by constantly correcting the child as this teacher seems to suggest, but by correcting it one single time once and for all. And always in the presence of the parent.

But first: Is there a problem? Most children actually naturally align the 3rd finger. So why interfere? Here you can see how the idea of aligning the 3rd finger is a very sound logical principle but not at all a necessary teaching strategy.

So what if there is a problem? It is no good telling the student that he will get carpal tunnel syndrome in 20 years time if he persists in this position. These are just meaningless words. So I show the parent the problem, and then I ask permission and apply a wrist lock to the student. It is a very painful wrist lock (but causes no damage if done properly). For those of you with the knowledge, I am talking about Nikkyo. This immediately show the student the problem. Now he knows what the problem is. Now he is paying a lot of attention (I am still applying the wrist lock). Next time he misaligns the fingers, I do not need to support his arm, or anything of the sort. All I have to do is say: remember the wrist lock? Having experienced the problem the student can now fully appreciate the solution.

Quote
Without making a sound, practice placing hand on piano and then coming up- all the while, teacher is the guiding influence and completely leading.  Developing proper wrist motion. 

Now, this is the sort of thing I may want to do myself, or suggest to my advanced students as a good idea. For a beginner? It makes no sense. Proper wrist motion for what? As if there was an universal wrist motion that was correct while all the others are incorrect. Again we have a solution that has no discernible problem.

Instead teach the student a piece. Then show him different ways to move that will result in different ways the piece sounds.

Quote
When this is developed then the first sound is made.  This is of course done with the teacher's help.  The goal is to get the sound to be beautiful and unobstructed. 
Have them listen to sound for as long as it can be heard.  While in this position, with the key depressed, teacher is constantly supporting with his/her own hand as described above, manipulating as needed to assure the child's hand does not become tense.
Ha ha ha . If I was constantly holding the arm of a child and manipulating this way and that, tension would mount all around.

A child who approaches a piano for the first time has only one interest: make as much noise as possible. His only problem is how to convince you to let him have a go at the piano. And you must let him. A child should be allowed to explore the piano to the limit of his imagination. And if he has no imagination I will show him: I will play the piano with my fists, with my whole forearms and even with my butt. When I teach the recorder, I show them how to play it by sticking it in the nose and blowing through the nose. Then I put one recorder in each nose and play a little duet.

Beautiful sound? As a logical system to guide your teaching is a wonderful idea. As a practical teaching methodology it is a crock of potatoes.

Have them listen to the sound for as long as it can be heard? Which children is this person teaching? I want some too! My students play a note, run around the piano, play another note and yawn stretching, if I can get them to play two notes in succession is already a victory. Why should they learn to produce this sound? It is not a problem for them yet. Later on, after 6 months  - 1 year of lessons, they may be ready for it. But to propose that this should be the first thing to be taught?

Quote
Here, the child will begin ear training and learn to distinguish the vibrations (leading to the recognition of the vibrations of each individual note).  When the sound has died, the hand is lifted out of the piano keys with the proper wrist motion and is placed in lap.  The big emphasis here is in praising the child for creating a beautiful and unobstructed sound.

Ear training? Far better to listen to a lot of music. And what is a beautiful and unobstructed sound? Who is the judge of that? There are several misconceptions here, but I don’t really know where to begin.

But please, do tell us more.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline jeff

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Re: contrasting teaching styles... benefits of each?
Reply #6 on: October 16, 2004, 05:09:14 AM
So what if there is a problem? It is no good telling the student that he will get carpal tunnel syndrome in 20 years time if he persists in this position. These are just meaningless words. So I show the parent the problem, and then I ask permission and apply a wrist lock to the student. It is a very painful wrist lock (but causes no damage if done properly). For those of you with the knowledge, I am talking about Nikkyo. This immediately show the student the problem. Now he knows what the problem is. Now he is paying a lot of attention (I am still applying the wrist lock). Next time he misaligns the fingers, I do not need to support his arm, or anything of the sort. All I have to do is say: remember the wrist lock? Having experienced the problem the student can now fully appreciate the solution.

i'd like to know a bit more about this wrist lock. how is it done, what exactly does it do? etc

Offline ChristmasCarol

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Re: contrasting teaching styles... benefits of each?
Reply #7 on: October 16, 2004, 07:45:36 PM
I have a student whose grandmother told me she grew up in Germany and for her entire first year of piano lessons she was not allowed to touch the piano but had to learn to read music and point to the notes and identify them. 

Surely I'm not the only teacher who hears tale after tale of people who quit piano lessons because they were bored/frustrated/didn't like the music/the teacher yelled at them, etc.

How many parents have I heard say to me, I wish I had you for a teacher. 

My premise with students is always based on the fire and the desire inside of them that wants to play the piano and make music.  I try to give them the tools to make that happen with a degree of satisfaction as quickly as possible.  I open the door of music and piano playing and when they have stepped into it, then we work on the technical aspects.

There is a great deal of therapy like analysis that has to happen in order to be a good teacher.  The student shows me what they can hear and respond to, and then we take it from there.  I don't use the same material for every student.  That idea is ridiculous to me.

Has anyone read John Holt's book "Never Too Late"?  He was an educator who wrote "How Children Learn and How Children Fail" which you may have heard about.  His book is a careful analysis of himself as a beginning musician at the age of 50 learning to play the cello. 

I'm a junky for success with my students.  Success for me is whether they feel like they can approach the piano and the world of music or not.  How many students will be pursuing this endeavor with a great passion?  That is up to them.

In my never to be humble opinion the way children are being educated right now in the traditional school system is crap.  The structured approach assumes that every student is the same and responds to learning the same way, despite constant evidence to the contrary!  I'm with Jonathan Kozol who responded to the comment, "the world isn't that way(free and joyful)" whereupon he replied "the world isn't any damn way".

I once had a nine year old girl who was in the so called "gifted" program at her school.  She would wait 30 seconds or more to play a note on the piano lest it not be perfect. 

Conversely I had a four year old piano student who was considered a "problem" at his yuppie daycare center.  He learned music like nobody's business.

I am absolutely always outside the box when teaching.  What do I get?  Parents tell me their kids are playing the piano "all the time".   Adults are breaking through blocks they've had all their lives.

The technique described here makes me cringe.  I'm reading "When the Music Stopped" by Tom Cottle.  It is about his mom - Gitta Gradova - herself a brilliant pianist - best friends with Horowitz.  Tom describes one concert Horowitz was giving where much to his mom's horror she said "Oh my God he has no idea where he is in this piece".  Horowitz of course kept playing anyway.    After the concert she ran back stage to see him and they both burst out laughing.  Gitta and Horowitz loved to hear Art Tatum among others.  They played everything in her house on her two steinways.

Why do so many musicians need their gods of perfection?  It's just my opinion, but I think the world is better off with some more musical gambling and risk-taking.  Good ole fashioned joy I say.





Offline reinvent

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Re: contrasting teaching styles... benefits of each?
Reply #8 on: October 23, 2004, 12:34:08 AM
m1469,
I'd be interested in hearing more about the technique steps she lists when you have time.  Although I might not be as restrictive in my teaching, there are always new ways of teaching technique that I look for.
I do not think that at a young age I was taught technique as well as I wish I'd been, but on the other hand, my teacher encourage my passion for music.
So it's always beneficial for me to incorporate different teaching stlyes into one that works for me.
  I never know enough - especially when each student is different.

Offline pianowelsh

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Re: contrasting teaching styles... benefits of each?
Reply #9 on: January 19, 2005, 12:13:58 PM
I know a suzuki teacher who teaches very much that it's not about playing tunes and that beauty of sound and posture and control happen from lesson one (actually quite close to 'Russian' school - but Russia and Japan have lots of cultural similarities when it comes to piano teaching for obvious reasons). She has students come for a trial period of 6 months before starting lessons (often as young as 4) and they sit quitely with there parents at the other end of the room while a lesson is going on and that way they learn the theory side with 'fun' work books and can hear and witness essentially what they are going to learn in the near future (she considers the discipline and control aspect VERY important and insisits that they bow to each other before beginning the lesson 'proper' so that they learn to control all that 'waste' energy  and focus on the task in hand. Admittedly it is difficult to find students in the western culture and indeed parents who show such a reverence for learning and serious instrumental study - she works form home and in a private music school. But as with all methodolgies one can adapt them for your situation and take the nuggets form them. Are any of you guys susuki teachers? I hear it's massive in the USA although my Japanese housemate (a pianist) says that the method is not as popular as it usedto be in Japan and that Yamaha is much the preferred method out there?!

Offline chopinisque

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Re: contrasting teaching styles... benefits of each?
Reply #10 on: February 02, 2005, 09:23:51 AM

The reason for the emphasis on the middle finger is because anatomically the soundest position is when your middle finger is in line with the bones of the forearm. This is a very strong position and it is also very safe in that is will avoid injuries like carpal tunnel syndrome that result basically from lack of alignment.  Later, you will find out that an equally sound position is to align the little finger with the forearm bones.

Most beginners tend to misalign the fingers with the forearm bones and by doing so press the nerve centres on the wrist. They do not feel it, but it in the long term it may cause problems (not with western children who rarely practice – but with the Russian kids who must practice ten hours a day so that his parents do no loose the flat is a very real problem – so it must be sorted out straight away).

Could you elaborate on how one can recognize the misalignment?  And maybe how it can be corrected?

Thanks.
Mad about Chopin.

Offline whynot

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Re: contrasting teaching styles... benefits of each?
Reply #11 on: February 20, 2005, 04:42:05 AM
To Bernhard and ChristmasCarol:  yes, yes, YES. 

Offline whynot

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Re: contrasting teaching styles... benefits of each?
Reply #12 on: February 20, 2005, 04:58:09 AM
Well, just one more thing.  The John Holt reference (whose ideas are very big with me) reminded me of one of his teaching stories.  They (who are "they"... one never knows) took a group of fifth-graders, showed them a homemade fan, the kind you make by taking a piece of paper and just making a bunch of even folds.  They asked the kids, "You know how to make one of these?"  Yes, everyone knew, paper was given out and each child made one.  Then they said, "Now listen carefully to these instructions and do exactly as we say."  They read a detailed list of steps for making the very same project, and by the time they got to the end, almost none of the kids could make the fan again, even though they used to know how to do it.  Hmm.   

Offline anda

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Re: contrasting teaching styles... benefits of each?
Reply #13 on: February 20, 2005, 07:31:53 PM
it's good to have a system - esp for beginners - it gives you a starting point. i always start the same way (same exercises, same everything) with all beginers, and go from there adjusting everything to the specifics of each kid. in 3 months (if not earlier), the differences are big.

Offline pianonut

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Re: contrasting teaching styles... benefits of each?
Reply #14 on: February 21, 2005, 03:22:15 PM
i think it's all about what type of student you are hoping to produce. 

when i was 28 and had my first child, i went with the "joy" approach in parenting.  i have a very sensitive and loving son.  he has learned things that he is interested in (i never forced piano) and it has been an approach that makes him very loving and sensitive to kids younger than him (maybe excepting his sister sometimes) and he's still responsible and does things basically on his own.  BUT--

five years later, i had my next child.  i decided to go with more "structure."  not to criticise either method (but results are very different) i started out placing her down for naps at certain times, feeding at certain times, and gradually started teaching her things i wanted her to do (ie putting things away, etc.).  She is a straight A student and is very SELF motivated more immediately (puts work in front of pleasure) whereas my son is more pleasure motivated, then work.

now, being older and more worn out...my third child is right inbetween the two methods.  some days i allow more pleasure, and some days i say "this is the way we are going to do it."  she, being very into helping right now, usually considers work fun anyway.  (just wait until she's 8-10!)

for what it's worth, i think the very very best pianists had a lot of structure in their early childhood.  it wasn't all fun.  but, they were probably rewarded by the fast progress, and then later appreciation by teachers and other students for their dilligence (fast progress).  talent is the other half, though, and i don't think (despite dilligence) that you can count it out.  there are some children who are just plain gifted in music and it shows in how interested they are in everything about it.  my second child is gifted in singing.  she was singing to herself in the crib one day when she was about 3-4 months.  i was totally shocked.
do you know why benches fall apart?  it is because they have lids with little tiny hinges so you can store music inside them.  hint:  buy a bench that does not hinge.  buy it for sturdiness.

Offline pianonut

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Re: contrasting teaching styles... benefits of each?
Reply #15 on: February 21, 2005, 03:26:18 PM
just so i give fairness to the "joy" approach, my son is extremely creative in finding answers to things, he is a computer guru (at 15), and will stay up very late figuring things out.  So, he IS self motivated.  just not one of those people that can keep a regular time schedule.
do you know why benches fall apart?  it is because they have lids with little tiny hinges so you can store music inside them.  hint:  buy a bench that does not hinge.  buy it for sturdiness.

Offline anda

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Re: contrasting teaching styles... benefits of each?
Reply #16 on: February 21, 2005, 04:05:42 PM
Moreover, in the UK in the moment there is a big zeitgeist that says you must not touch children.

wow! i couldn't teach anyone this way... i constantly touch their hands/wrists/arms to help them... would i get arrested for this in uk?  :o

Offline grigo

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Re: contrasting teaching styles... benefits of each?
Reply #17 on: February 24, 2005, 03:38:37 PM
Bernhard's polemic is brilliant!!Bravo!!!!! :)
ARS LONGA VITA BREVIS

Offline bernhard

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Re: contrasting teaching styles... benefits of each?
Reply #18 on: March 01, 2005, 12:39:59 AM


Could you elaborate on how one can recognize the misalignment?  And maybe how it can be corrected?

Thanks.

Have a look here where this particular misalignment is illustrated (they call it “ulnar deviation in the thread):

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,6234.msg61359.html#msg61359
(Look at the picture in reply #2).

 It is caused by the thumb being out of the keyboard, and when it is suddenly needed one often  twists the hand as the thumb “reaches” for the key. The way to avoid it is to use the arm to position the thumb by bringing the whole hand in (forward towards the fallboard).

The usual, consistent movements in piano playing – the ones one’s technique should be based on -  should always ensure that joins are aligned. So forwards and backwards movements, rotation of the forearm, moving fingers down from the knuckle joint, keeping fingers naturally curved (not curled or straight since both these extremes destroy joint alignment) are all to be pursued.

Dropping or lifting wrists, twisting the hand as a metronome arm, flapping arms like wings and lifting fingers high should never become habitual and the basis of one’s technique (although in rare – very rare occasions – you may need to use them briefly). Not only these movements are not necessary (you can get far better results by a co-ordination of the good aligned movements above), as they lead to laboured, effort-laden playing in the best scenario and to crippling injuries in the worst.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline bernhard

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Re: contrasting teaching styles... benefits of each?
Reply #19 on: March 01, 2005, 12:41:24 AM
Well, just one more thing.  The John Holt reference (whose ideas are very big with me) reminded me of one of his teaching stories.  They (who are "they"... one never knows) took a group of fifth-graders, showed them a homemade fan, the kind you make by taking a piece of paper and just making a bunch of even folds.  They asked the kids, "You know how to make one of these?"  Yes, everyone knew, paper was given out and each child made one.  Then they said, "Now listen carefully to these instructions and do exactly as we say."  They read a detailed list of steps for making the very same project, and by the time they got to the end, almost none of the kids could make the fan again, even though they used to know how to do it.  Hmm.   

Yes. John Holt should be required reading for all teachers.  :D
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline ingagroznaya

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Re: contrasting teaching styles... benefits of each?
Reply #20 on: August 08, 2006, 09:25:52 AM
In the Soviet days, a family would get a flat in Moscow if a child was found to be “gifted”. Piano playing (and Olympic Sports) was a passport for a better life. So everyone wanted their children to learn the piano. And believe me, if your apartment in Moscow depends on how your child will do in the conservatory, you will make him/her practice.

You're incorrect , Bernhard. All Art schools ( music, theater, painting, ballet ) in Leningrad and Moscow had dormitories, where young "gifted" children ( school age ) and older students ( college age ) lived . Practicing a lot of piano and being "gifted" did not give you a "propiska" ( residency ) or an apartment in this two cities. We learnt and dealt with extremes because we wanted to.
It's another way of thinking, another way of life. Not something you can fathom.

Offline ingagroznaya

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Re: contrasting teaching styles... benefits of each?
Reply #21 on: August 08, 2006, 10:39:23 AM
My own piano teacher gave up her work after learning that her son was fired from Kirov Ballet school ( in Leningrad ) for keeping porno journals in his nightstand. Poor kid was about 12 or 13. Living in the dormitory. Far from home. After that huge fiasco he was accepted to a school in another city. His mom got a job as a train servant (rail road) to be supportive and to stay in touch.

They both achieved what they wanted. After so many years of a such a life,  his mom is happy to be home and is back to teaching.

Kirov Ballet school is probably the most famous school of choreography not only in Russia, but in the world. Thousands kids from all over the country apply. Only a dozen or so get chosen. In Soviet Days people had dreams. Bigger dreams then a flat in Moscow.

Offline pianistimo

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Re: contrasting teaching styles... benefits of each?
Reply #22 on: August 08, 2006, 10:45:53 AM
kirov ballet.  wow.  i'd like to see them sometime. 

i guess the nyc ballet is pretty good, too - but isn't the kirov the best in the world basically.? now george ballachine - did he work with the kirov some - or not?

Offline bernhard

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Re: contrasting teaching styles... benefits of each?
Reply #23 on: August 08, 2006, 02:53:46 PM
You're incorrect , Bernhard. Not something you can fathom.


That is the cross I have to carry. :'(

On the other hand I just figured it all out: you are the Russian piano teacher of reply #1!!! :o

So, come clean and reveal yourself! ;D

BW
B.
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline ingagroznaya

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Re: contrasting teaching styles... benefits of each?
Reply #24 on: August 09, 2006, 07:40:46 AM

Most beginners tend to misalign the fingers with the forearm bones and by doing so press the nerve centres on the wrist. They do not feel it, but it in the long term it may cause problems (not with western children who rarely practice – but with the Russian kids who must practice ten hours a day so that his parents do no loose the flat is a very real problem – so it must be sorted out straight away).

Now, I do not have students who practise ten hours a day, nor parents who will loose their houses if their children do not practise ten hours a day. So this is not a problem at all. If it is not a problem, no student is going to bother in following instructions that proved a solution for a problem they do not even know exists.


Now I see how a Moscow flat entered the picture.
Flat or not, you have made your point. ;)

Offline luvslive

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Re: contrasting teaching styles... benefits of each?
Reply #25 on: August 09, 2006, 10:55:33 PM
I know a suzuki teacher who teaches very much that it's not about playing tunes and that beauty of sound and posture and control happen from lesson one (actually quite close to 'Russian' school - but Russia and Japan have lots of cultural similarities when it comes to piano teaching for obvious reasons). She has students come for a trial period of 6 months before starting lessons (often as young as 4) and they sit quitely with there parents at the other end of the room while a lesson is going on and that way they learn the theory side with 'fun' work books and can hear and witness essentially what they are going to learn in the near future (she considers the discipline and control aspect VERY important and insisits that they bow to each other before beginning the lesson 'proper' so that they learn to control all that 'waste' energy and focus on the task in hand. Admittedly it is difficult to find students in the western culture and indeed parents who show such a reverence for learning and serious instrumental study - she works form home and in a private music school. But as with all methodolgies one can adapt them for your situation and take the nuggets form them. Are any of you guys susuki teachers? I hear it's massive in the USA although my Japanese housemate (a pianist) says that the method is not as popular as it usedto be in Japan and that Yamaha is much the preferred method out there?!

Yes, I am a Suzuki teacher.  I also teach traditionally from Faber books.  Both are very sound and cover technique beautifully.  Both include ear training and listening to the sound you create.  My Suzuki students play with ease (those who do the practicing and listen to their Suzuki cd).  I find when the student is not looking at a method book we can focus more on "how were your dynamics?" "were your shoulders relaxed and back straight" than "oh, we forgot a sharp or flat in that line." 

Offline pianistimo

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Re: contrasting teaching styles... benefits of each?
Reply #26 on: August 09, 2006, 11:26:35 PM
but how is sight reading introduced in suzuki.  my brother took it and can still not sight read today.  (or he sightreads slowly).  has suzuki changed it's method slightly?

ps my brother plays really well by ear, though and can copy a song on the radio like nothing.  i am still slightly jealous - but not really - because if i want to hear a song, he can just sit down and play it.  i on the other hand would take ages to get the chords and melody going in the same direction (unless it was a fairly simple tune).

Offline luvslive

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Re: contrasting teaching styles... benefits of each?
Reply #27 on: August 10, 2006, 05:26:32 AM
i think it depends on the teacher.  at my trainings i've heard different things.  one trainer said start them reading notes in book 1 already.  another said wait until book 2.  i was hesitant to wait that long!  i believe from the very beginning you could have students singing solfege and singing different intervals and then relating those intervals to the staff.  i talk about steps and skips pretty early, and work alot with 3rds to relate to chords.  some of the problem in the United States' Suzuki programs may be that the public schools aren't teaching as much note reading.
i understand your feelings of envy toward your brother...my brother picked up the guitar as a kid and started to play by ear and i too was jealous.  now i am pushing myself to try it more, and slowly am getting better.  i can sometimes pick out a melody pretty well, but forget about chords in correct inversions, etc.
as for my personal experience with suzuki students sightreading...they are often slower.   it seems like you said, the best ear players can be awful at sightreading.  but i've had some students come along and do both well. 
i agree with what your method of picking out all the C's (from the newbie question thread).  i've done that and used the idea of guide notes from the Faber method.  (bass c, bass clef f, middle c, treble g, and treble c).  in conclusion, i think Suzuki students can learn to read music as long as the teacher is diligent in getting them to learn the notes, and doesn't wait so long that the student never has the chance.
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