Improvisation over a Theme.

[pianisten1989]

Hello,

I haven't been around in the Audition Room a lot, so maybe this has been done already but I was thinking...

The improvisations I've been listening to is most of the time just more or less random improvisation (nothing wrong with that, so don't get me wrong), so maybe it could be fun if someone came up with a theme, and we made our own impovs over that theme. As I said, I haven't been here that much so I might be wrong, but the responses I've read has basically been "Oh, I really liked your improv.." Thn some "I liked the 'whatever the idea was'" and that's it.

Maybe it's easier to give constructive criticism and share ideas if everyone has got the same theme to do an improv over?

Anyone?

[pianowolfi]

I think it might be fun Who is the first to suggest a theme? (No it will not be me!! )

[littletune]

Well I think it would be to difficult for me... but it would be cool to listen to others   sooo someone should start!  

[pianowolfi]

Well I think it would be to difficult for me... but it would be cool to listen to others   sooo someone should start!  

How can you tell if it's too difficult for you if you didn't hear it first?  
And considering the fact that nobody made a suggestion yet?

   

[littletune]

Well you're right Wolfi!   So I'm now waiting for someone to make a suggestion!  So please... 

[ted]

I suggest the rather pretty motif Teddy Wilson gave Marian McPartland to improvise on in their radio interview.

[pianowolfi]

I suggest the rather pretty motif Teddy Wilson gave Marian McPartland to improvise on in their radio interview.

I have absolutely no background regarding this theme and it's history. So I guess it's a good point for me to give it a try It does remind me very much of an Italian song I accompanied a while ago. I hope I'll remember where I have put the sheet music to it, but of course this won't be of any importance regarding my prospective improv.

[ted]

It's nothing famous as far as I know. I just happened to be listening to the CD, which I found for $2 in a sale, of the interview a while ago and remembered it. I hadn't heard it before then.

[pianisten1989]

It sounds like a good theme for imrov. Let's go for it, shall we?

[chopinatic]

I thought id start things off with a very quick 60 second improv on the theme suggested by ted (thanks) to give people an idea or inspiration! very simple and basic but i think it works good to be posting again!
chopinatic

[littletune]

That's great! Thanks for starting Chopinatic!!  I like it a lot!  Oh I wish I could do that too!!! 

[chopinatic]

That's great! Thanks for starting Chopinatic!!  I like it a lot!  Oh I wish I could do that too!!! 

Thanks You can do it! I look forwards to hearing yours! im just about to post a proper improv now

[pianisten1989]

Since I started this thread, I feel it's kind of stupid if I don't post anything.

So - My first recorded improv. I had a few "oh sh*t, where to go now?!" and "That wasn't the sound I was looking for", but it would kind of ruin the improv is I made loads of re-takes, just to get it right.

So, here it goes!

Iih, I'm so nervous


Edit: And ofc, nice one chopinatic. I really like the harmonies.. Though, I wish it was longer, so that the chords would develop into something more.

[pianowolfi]

What a cute little waltz! A Chopinesque Waltz. I like especially those "grupetti" variations. And that impatient ending made me laugh. Bravo and congratulations for your first posted improv!
I noticed that both of you changed the theme a bit at the first appearance. I don't know if that's conform to the rules, haha . I'd rather expose it as it is and change it later. I'll try to post something too. I had limited access to my grand lately because I've got painters in the house.
 

[birba]

Alright pianisten!  I bet you'd make a great ballet pianist!  I did that for 2 miserable years.  Improvise improvise improvise...  It was very difficult not to get into a rut.

[ongaku_oniko]

you guys are so awesome! how do you improvise? is there a technique to do it? Even if I have a melody in my head, I can never play it out on a piano...

and adding in the left hand is so hard

[pianisten1989]

Wow, thanks! I really didn't think you'd like it

Birba: When will you we hear yours?

Oniko: Practise, and just try to listen. Sometimes you should just keep playing, no matter what, and sometimes I think you should stop and correct/find notes you are looking for.

[ongaku_oniko]

But when I try to improv it just sounds... like junk. Like the melody is not harmonized at all.

It's like even if you listen to a piece you never heard before, you can tell if someone makes a mistake sometimes, because it just doesn't flow with the melody, right?

Well, if I improv it's completely like that. It's not even occassionally I can't find the notes I want, it's that I can never hit 2 notes consecutively that sound harmonized. And to add in the left hand, it's even worse. My improv is totally no different than someone who doesn't play piano randomly hitting notes.


BTW your improv is awesome, be more confident and post more of them!

[birba]

At the ballet they usually wanted 8 (4+4) using tonic-dominant , 8 (usually on the dominant, relative minor, etc.), then a return to the original 8.  I'm talking about measures here.  Ted played a straight 8 measure melody and then finished with a chord progression of some sort.  Pianisten did the same then went to the minor, but then sort of diddled off into another tangent instead of returning to the opening theme.  but without knowing it, at the beginning he stayed to the 8 measure formula and it was perfect for the plié excercises.  I guess you would call these measured improvisations - not a free non-form one that you hear frequently in the improvisation room.  Brings back memories.  did you guys know that I tried out for NYC ballet when Barishnikov was the boss.  I came in second.  After two weeks they called me to come over because the "winner" turned out to be very disappointing.  By that time I had decided to return to europe and I  turned THEM down.  Just as well.  I probably would have been equally disappointing...

[ongaku_oniko]

your experiences are so amazing. If I can experience a fraction of that in my lifetime I will be so happy.

Just wondering, do you guys naturally have the ability to know approximately where to play to get the sound you want, and how to make the chords sound harmonized, how to bring in the left hand etc, or is it from a long time studying musical theory and generally playing piano?

Because I feel like I'll never be able to reach that level... it just feels like I'll never really know which chords go along with which and how to get a sound that sort of sounds like a real piece as opposed to random notes and random rhythm.

[pianisten1989]

Theory is a big part for me. I'd be lost without it. And I think most people here have improvised for a while, and learned how patterns will sound.. And ofc, when you've played a big repertoire, you'll learn even more...

[birba]

your experiences are so amazing. If I can experience a fraction of that in my lifetime I will be so happy.

Just wondering, do you guys naturally have the ability to know approximately where to play to get the sound you want, and how to make the chords sound harmonized, how to bring in the left hand etc, or is it from a long time studying musical theory and generally playing piano?

Because I feel like I'll never be able to reach that level... it just feels like I'll never really know which chords go along with which and how to get a sound that sort of sounds like a real piece as opposed to random notes and random rhythm.

I'd like to know how old you are.  I could probably be your grandfather.  So I would suspect I've had more experiences then you!  If you want I could do a video:  How to become a hack pianist in 30 days guranteed or money back!   

[Derek]

your experiences are so amazing. If I can experience a fraction of that in my lifetime I will be so happy.

Just wondering, do you guys naturally have the ability to know approximately where to play to get the sound you want, and how to make the chords sound harmonized, how to bring in the left hand etc, or is it from a long time studying musical theory and generally playing piano?

Because I feel like I'll never be able to reach that level... it just feels like I'll never really know which chords go along with which and how to get a sound that sort of sounds like a real piece as opposed to random notes and random rhythm.

I think it really varies depending on who you are. I was not somebody who could learn or study anything in a traditional manner, it was better for me to just learn a couple of scales and start playing. Eventually I picked up a couple of very small "hints" in music theory books and online, but the rest I sort of "derived."

To this day I still do not understand the length to which music theory books go to analyze music, it doesn't make any sense to me. Instead I gleaned some very practical "first principles" about music theory and integrated them into my intuition, since I do like to emulate some of the common practice era sounds in my music.

On another note, ongaku: you can go as far as you want with it, maybe you just need a little encouragement. I sought out an experienced improviser to sort of "mentor" me, was lucky enough to find one...and it was just what I needed.

Sorry I haven't posted my own variation on this theme yet, I will do so soon.

[ongaku_oniko]

I am 18 years old.

I lived with my grandparents when I was really small, and their apartment was right next to my grandmothers' brother's apartment, so I went there very often. They had a keyboard, but no one knew how to play it. So I would mess around with it at times.

The first time I had lessons was in grade 4, I had lessons for 30 minutes a week, but I didn't have a piano to practise at all.

I quit after 2 months.

I started lessons again in grade 7, also 30 mins a week, no practise, until since this time I was learning with the community centre, we had a winter recital, so I had to learn something that sounds like an actual piece. After that, I because interested in the piano, since I learned something that sounds vaguely good, and not just hot cross buns and london bridge is falling down. I studied for 3 years somewhat seriously, until grade 10. But I don't practise. I only go to lessons. I had a piano by then, but I was too lazy to do techniques, and too lazy to play parts that were hard. I passed level 8 RCME in a year, but failed lvl 10. My piano teacher said to me "You really shouldn't be wasting your parents money like this". I quit after that. Recently, especially after your video of teaching becky, I fell in love with the piano once again. And this time I decided to really practise. I'm still not big on techniques like scales and arpeggios, but I'm hoping I can improve my techniques by learning etudes.

My plan righ now is 1 etud and 1 piece that I really like at a time, perfect them, and then start new ones. I'm hoping to finish black keys etude and arabesque no.1, and a rachmaninoff etude tableux by the en of the year.


Well, that's about me, hope it wasn't a boring read. My life is pretty boring. I wish I got the opportunity and talent to have experieces like you guys.

And it would be awesome if you can post a video on how to improv! If it doesn't take too much of your time, of course. And I hope you make your videos public, since even if they're helping some spcific person, I know eveyrone can learn something from it. I certainly did from your waldstein and Sonata no.5 3rd mvt videos.

[Derek]

Wow, 18 is almost exactly the age I began improvising, playing piano at all. Give yourself time! Believe in yourself, maybe look for someone to help mentor you and you can go as far as you want with improv. If you have a genuine desire to make your own music you will be able to do it! If you're playing etudes at 18, heck I wasn't even playing bach inventions at that age.

[birba]

Yep.  I could be your grandfather and then some...
18.  wow.  It's not that I envy you, but you have got some future ahead of you no matter what you do.  Barring May 21, naturally.  Are you sure you shouldn't perhaps do some easier etudes before approaching the etude tableaux?  I bet you would make faster progress that way.  How long have you been studying the black key etude?  One has to know when to stop for the moment and give the piece a rest.  Is someone directing your studies at all?  I mean if you can tackle these pieces after only the little teaching you've had you must have some sort of gift.  But just studying the black key etude isn't going to develop a "technique".  But, on the other hand, this may be alright for you and satisfy your pianistic aspirations.
As I was writing this I thought to myself  "Maybe she's another voice of the Becky gang."   

[ongaku_oniko]

Well, first of all, I'm a guy.

Secondly, I never wrote anything as deep as lady_pianist and co.

Thirdly, I'm certainly not an amazing pianist by any measure. I'll be posting my black keys once I finish it, but it will sound extremely crappy, then you'll know that it's my real playing, since no one would record such bad playing. Even if I were Becky, it would still be my real playing and not stolen off of someone

What you say is really encouraging, because to me, I've already had 3 years of lessons and I still don't know anything about music.

Just so you don't misunderstand, I changed to private, one hour lessons shortly after the recital, which was why I was able to pass RCM grade 8. During my grade 10 RCM exam, I hardly practised, but I did pass most of my pieces (just barely). However, I failed technical miserably (I think 1 or 2 out of 10), so I failed the exam. My Ear training and sight reading were barely passing as well.

I was thinking of playing the etude tableux op.33 no.8 (I think it was) (the one in gminor), that was part of the RCM grade 10 studies repertoire, so I think it isn't above my level.

I've been practising black keys for... I guess a month? But recently I've been doing exam prep and projects, so haven't had much practise and furthermore, I haven't been playing for 3 years.

I'm basically done page one, can get page 2 at half speed, but page 3 seems really hard for me. And I don't wanna think about page 4 yet. But even for page one, where I can play through basically with no mistakes at the rght tempo, somehow it sounds "wrong". Like it sounds really messy after I listen t oa recording, even though it's crisp clear when I play myself.


P.S
I can't prove that I'm not becky or lady_pianist, but I can prove my age and my ethnicity :p

Just speak to me in Chinese and I can respond in chinese :p With perfect grammar, not like some google translator none-sense. And I also understand  A LITTLE Japanese. A little, meaning about 1 year's woth of watching anime and drama.

And to prove my age, I can give you all the details on how to get in the ivy league schools, and the best highschool programs like IB and AP, and which is better for getting in ivies, and how to score well on the SATs. I did so much research, planning to apply to the states for university, but my counsellor didn't come all of december, and I couldn't get the counsellor's rec in time for my application


P.S.S
I have no teacher currently, and I don' really want one. I think asking advice on here is good enough. I have some musical theory training (RCM grade 2 rudiments, grade 3&4 harmony, grade 3&4 history), and I know what the notes are and stuff. Other than that, I don't really want to be influeced by like a cookie-cutter mold way of playing music. I feel like I want to play the way I think it would sound good, not the way someone else feels it would sound good.

P.S.S.S

Birba: I suggest you watch Nodae Cantabile since you lived in japan and stuff. It's a japanese manga/anime/drama about a pianist and guy who wants to become a conductor. I always thought that it was exaggerated (how nodame can play Rach 2 after just listening to it once), bt now I'm beginning to believe that real people hve that kind of talent.

[littletune]

@Ongaku_oniko
Really? I thought you were a girl too!  I mean I don't know why... no reason I guess Well I think you thought I was a boy right? I think you wrote in my practicing piano thread "he" and "his" when you were talking about me   

Birba it's so cool you're commenting in improvisatons!! You could really post something!!   
And no I don't really think you could be his grandfather and then some...  I mean my dad is almost your age!! 

Oh and about this thread... I will really try to make improvisation about this too...  if I figure it out!   

[ongaku_oniko]

Yeah, I noticed that my typing is excessively girlish as well. Oh well, can't help it. But if you saw me in real life you'd know that I'm as far from being a girl as possible. Totally ungirlish.

And yeah, my grandfather,who passed away a few months ago () was 86 years old...

Are you 86 "and then some", Birba you look surprisingly young

@ littletunes: Well I assume everyone is a boy unless proven otherwise :p

As they say, 100% of guys are guys and 90% of girls are guys.

[littletune]

Yeah, I noticed that my typing is excessively girlish as well. Oh well, can't help it. But if you saw me in real life you'd know that I'm as far from being a girl as possible. Totally ungirlish.

And yeah, my grandfather,who passed away a few months ago () was 86 years old...

Are you 86 "and then some", Birba you look surprisingly young

@ littletunes: Well I assume everyone is a boy unless proven otherwise :p

As they say, 100% of guys are guys and 90% of girls are guys.

Well I am a lot like a boy a lot of times... when I had short hair people thought I was a boy all the time  and I didn't even mind I thought it was cool!  (but my parents did mind a little)... but now I have really long hair so people usually know I'm a girl   

[m1469]

This was fun!  I haven't listened to anybody else's yet, because I wanted to see what I would do without any other influence at all yet.  So, that's what I'm posting here.  I will listen to other's soon.

Good idea .

[m1469]

Oh!  I just listened to Chopinatic and pianisten1989!  Very nice 

[quantum]

Haven't listened to anyone else yet.  Here's my contribution. 

[m1469]

haha ... Quantum!  I couldn't help but laugh when I started listening, and not because I think it's comical that you did this, but I just appreciate it with the humor of hearing such a difference in interpretation, and your ability to just take off the shackles.  haha.  I'm sorry, I just have to laugh because it's fun!

*listens*

When I did mine, I felt there were other options, of course, and even tried a couple of times and they were both different.  But, I'm curious, if I post again on the same motif, how it will have changed after hearing other's.

[kelly_kelly]

Just wanted to say that I'm enjoying this thread, with special kudos to quantum for seriously surprising me after I had heard all the others I can't do this type of thing yet, but you guys are truly inspiring, and maybe someday...

[kelly_kelly]

Well, first of all, I'm a guy.

Secondly, I never wrote anything as deep as lady_pianist and co.

Thirdly, I'm certainly not an amazing pianist by any measure. I'll be posting my black keys once I finish it, but it will sound extremely crappy, then you'll know that it's my real playing, since no one would record such bad playing. Even if I were Becky, it would still be my real playing and not stolen off of someone

What you say is really encouraging, because to me, I've already had 3 years of lessons and I still don't know anything about music.

Just so you don't misunderstand, I changed to private, one hour lessons shortly after the recital, which was why I was able to pass RCM grade 8. During my grade 10 RCM exam, I hardly practised, but I did pass most of my pieces (just barely). However, I failed technical miserably (I think 1 or 2 out of 10), so I failed the exam. My Ear training and sight reading were barely passing as well.

I was thinking of playing the etude tableux op.33 no.8 (I think it was) (the one in gminor), that was part of the RCM grade 10 studies repertoire, so I think it isn't above my level.

I've been practising black keys for... I guess a month? But recently I've been doing exam prep and projects, so haven't had much practise and furthermore, I haven't been playing for 3 years.

I'm basically done page one, can get page 2 at half speed, but page 3 seems really hard for me. And I don't wanna think about page 4 yet. But even for page one, where I can play through basically with no mistakes at the rght tempo, somehow it sounds "wrong". Like it sounds really messy after I listen t oa recording, even though it's crisp clear when I play myself.


P.S
I can't prove that I'm not becky or lady_pianist, but I can prove my age and my ethnicity :p

Just speak to me in Chinese and I can respond in chinese :p With perfect grammar, not like some google translator none-sense. And I also understand  A LITTLE Japanese. A little, meaning about 1 year's woth of watching anime and drama.

And to prove my age, I can give you all the details on how to get in the ivy league schools, and the best highschool programs like IB and AP, and which is better for getting in ivies, and how to score well on the SATs. I did so much research, planning to apply to the states for university, but my counsellor didn't come all of december, and I couldn't get the counsellor's rec in time for my application

(off-topic) I don't understand why you are so harsh on yourself. Black keys would definitely take me a lot longer than a month to learn. If you almost passed RCM grade 10, you clearly know "something" about music. All your self-deprecation (not on this thread, but in general) doesn't make much sense to me.

(even more off-topic) And saying that you know how to get into the ivies is like saying that you know how to win the lottery... Completely irrelevant, I know, but it's a pet peeve of mine.

[ongaku_oniko]

Well, if I came off that way, I'm sorry. I'm not usually good at expressing myself, and people always take me the wrong way.

I am proud of my accomplishments, I'm not putting myself down all the time. It's just that compared with most people here, I feel that I still have a long way to go. That's what I'm trying to say. I'm far from being a good pianist, but that doesn't stop me from trying to become one.

As for the ivy thing: You are completely right. And that's what I would tell people too, if they asked me. But for some reason people still keep asking others to see if there is somehow a magical formula to get in.

Now, I can't say I can get anyone into any school they want, but there are certain things that you can do to significantly improve your chances of getting into an ivy. Personally, I'm not good enough to get in an ivy, and I won't pretend to be (even if I was able to get a counsellor's rec, I would be applying to UCLA and such (I mean UCLA-level schools that require the common app), and ivies just for the fun of it. I don't seriously except to get in an ivy). In fact, I'm not anywhere near that level. But I know what I now know what I could've done back in highschool to significantly raise my chances of getting into an ivy.

[ted]

Pretty loose and meandering, as if I had just got out of bed, which in fact I had.

[Derek]

Here's a baroque-inspired improv on the motif, exported both with a harpsichord and a piano sound. I've just recently embarked upon the journey of learning to improvise fugues (this particular piece is not a "true" formal fugue though), so I'm not terribly good at it yet, a little stuttering in parts. But I'm getting there!

I'm enjoying listening to all the different takes on this motif. Methinks it will be difficult for anyone to provide constructive criticism, we're all so different!

[ted]

Very good. As usual I wanted it to go on for very much longer and in diverse ways, but that is just my taste. I think you have the right idea starting with fluent fugato and gradually pushing it into loose fugue, and finally tighter fugue over succeeding months. It is a direction I haven't the energy to develop myself, but I am sure you will get there. There is no real need to stick to the old key relations of course, aside from the fact that you might prefer their sound. I have always felt the fugue to be a style or feeling rather than a rigid structure.

[ted]

The others so far:

Chopinatic's impresses me with its elegant simplicity and clarity of phrasing.

Pianisten1989's is also very clear, and has added interest through a change to majors as a middle section. Some nice chords in effective places too.

m1469 achieves a prolonged sadness through extreme simplicity, but cannot resist one change to a major harmony - interesting how we all seem to do that.

Quantum creates contrast through his usual splendid command of different piano textures. There are three of these at work, four if you count the exquisite treble figurations just after the first section. The long chordal passage, in particular, contains some stunning moments of harmony. And what a good idea to take the notes of the motif under the hand as a decoration at the start.

What is interesting is that, whatever the personal idioms, with such a small phrase, we all see the creation of contrast as an immediate  necessity whatever the nature of the opening. The longer the improvisation, the stronger the compulsion for this seems to be.

I hope more people participate.