Tension and Strength

[pianowolfi]

I do yoga.  Does that help?  And actually I'm kneeling - take that wolfi!

Well, as I said, as long as you're happy with it. I can just say, your video looks in everything much more natural and not tensed up. Whereas your posture photo looks like somebody had just nailed you against a wall (Well, in the second photo this person might at least have removed two nails... )

[keyboardclass]

Hey, no worries.  Here's another kid.  See how they're made now?

[fleetfingers]

What would you like a video of and how would it help?  It's technique overall that needs addressing not individual pieces.

I was being half-serious in requesting a video because I really would like to hear you play it and half-frivolous because I didn't really expect you to make one. I just had a moment of excitement that you had "finished up" the piece I'm working on for recital this month.

Yes, releasing tension is an overall technique, but there are certain movements in which you can release tension if given a better way to do it. For example, I learned how to use my thumb in the opening passage from watching Lisitsa play it on youtube. I noticed from her video that she allows her thumb to be "limp" and move along down to its next notes by the movement of the whole arm and hand - instead of the thumb straining to lead. If you were to post a video, I might actually learn something. At the very least, I would enjoy listening! But, of course, you don't have to.

[pianowolfi]

Hey, no worries.  Here's another kid.  See how they're made now?

Yes I see, but that's still nothing like your photo...but if you don't see it yourself I can't do anything about it.

[lostinidlewonder]

mmmm why posting pictures of little kids that is not piano related? It seems very freaky in a bad way lol.

I fail to see anything in the videos that interest me, there is nothing written which puts emphasis on anything strongly related to this thread. It is as if you simply took any old video from your collection and hoped that it would be relevant.

This guy broke the rules musically and technically and still produced some of the most memorable music ever.

[mike1127]

As for rounded shoulders - I can't go with that at all.   I don't think it's healthy in the long run.   Mary, and all workers, should position themselves close enough to their 'job' to not have to protract their scapula.  

By the way, Feldenkrais teachers have to reach far forward at times. It's not possible to "position themselves close enough" to avoid bringing the shoulders forward. Anyway, nature gave our shoulders options. To think that your shoulders must remain neutral at all times is as limiting as a habitually hunched posture.

@lostinidlewonder -- anything about graceful movement is related to piano playing, and although I may disagree with keyboardclass on some things, I agree that many young kids have a manner of using themselves closer to what nature intended for all of us.

[mike1127]

keyboardclass:

Since I have 500 hours of professional Feldenkrais training and I've never heard that Feldenkrais said to point the knuckles forward, I did a web search. Turns out the only relevant hit was a thread in which someone by the handle "keyboardclass" said the same thing.

First of all, this claim of yours doesn't make sense, because Feldenkrais is about dynamic organization in activity. And Feldenkrais lessons are about exploring options. That's two reasons right there why no Feldenkrais teacher would declare that standing with the knuckles forward (palms back) is an ideal posture. Because (1) they talk about dynamic activity and so very little is said about a static posture, and (2) they talk about options and would very rarely suggest that a single option is best for everything.

Assuming this other keyboardclass is you, you have a picture of Anat Baniel's class as proof that Feldenkrais taught "knuckles forward." Those people are probably standing in whatever way comes most easily and immediately to them, which in the case of the people in the photograph is knuckles forward. Feldenkrais teachers generally don't tell people directly to change what they are doing. The change comes indirectly and emerges from a process of exploration. Anat is probably helping those people to sense themselves as a whole and to give themselves permission to move freely. Asking people to change their posture does not accomplish that---in fact it impedes that. It may happen that during a lesson, a student spontaneously shifts the position of their arm. But that's not something aimed at directly.

Then you quote "Watch any Feldenkrais video and you'll see all the students trying their darndest to get palms facing back!" Now I suspect you have never seen a Feldenkrais class, because I don't know of a single lesson that would ask people to do this (and I have done hundreds of different lessons).

I respectfully ask you to stop repeating this claim.

[keyboardclass]

I have every respect for Moshe Feldenkrais - every inch a genius.  Hopefully I was misinformed - I've started a thread as I'd love to go deeper into this.

[lostinidlewonder]

With the picture of ballet students, I can't help but consider the performing lifespan of ballet dancer. Even with all their technique their body eventually cannot meet the technical demands, at 30+ their body is generally already showing signs of weakening. Piano is totally different in this respect, it is not our posture at the piano which is our main challenge, it is the transfer of energy from our fingertips to the keyboard.

How we effectively use our fingers, connected to the palm, the wrist, the forearm, the elbow, the shoulders, the back, your feet. I think the feet are so important, they ground you to the earth an give you stability, more important than the back posture. I can also close up my shoulders and still feel relaxed, you often have to do so when you play with crossed hand positions, if you maintained an open shoulder position while crossing you may indeed cause more tension.

The only indicator is relaxation, what does it mean to be relaxed, lie down on a bed with your hands at your side, this is relaxed! The next step is to sit at a piano with your fingers resting in the Chopin natural hand formation, then ask yourself what does this relaxation feel like. So when you play you must always return to this state whenever possible, maintaining deviations from this will maintains unnecessary tension. Yeah, sounds easy in words but it is the application while learning music that is the challenge.

A childs body does not have the muscle bulk of an adult and thus do not have to deal with as much. Also each and every child is different, some have good posture others have bad just as you get with adults so merely looking at a childs posture is no different than from looking at older people. But most children have good posture because they have not had time to develop bad habits. I know people close up their shoulders because of a body insecurity, I know some girls I have taught like this, some have physical problems that you have to deal with, so you have to treat each case carefully.

[mike1127]

Piano is totally different in this respect, it is not our posture at the piano which is our main challenge, it is the transfer of energy from our fingertips to the keyboard.

How we effectively use our fingers, connected to the palm, the wrist, the forearm, the elbow, the shoulders, the back, your feet.

This is a good description of what Feldenkrais termed the "organization" of movement, and he described a sense of alert energy, ready to move in any direction. The Judo that was at the root of his method is about fighting, and in particular maintaining a readiness to respond to any direction of attack. That kind of "acture" (a pun on posture) is helpful in any activity.

[keyboardclass]

I was being half-serious in requesting a video because I really would like to hear you play it and half-frivolous because I didn't really expect you to make one. I just had a moment of excitement that you had "finished up" the piece I'm working on for recital this month.

I don't think I'm up to videoing yet, not that I can see it helping.  If you played slower you'd play perfectly - what's wrong with that?  Can you play it slowly?

[fleetfingers]

I don't think I'm up to videoing yet, not that I can see it helping.  If you played slower you'd play perfectly - what's wrong with that?  Can you play it slowly?

Nothing's wrong with that . . . it's probably what I'll end up doing. Thanks.

[keyboardclass]

If you can play it slowly you can play it - it'll speed up of its own. 

[ongaku_oniko]

not really... I've been at a constant speed for a while, no errors, no nothing (first 16 bars, until the BBBBBB part)

But if I try to speed it up by even one millisecond, my hand goes all mooshy, and the notes either won't sound or are just plan wrong, and the rhythm screws up and everything.

Right now the fastest I can get for that part is 9 seconds. Still 2 seconds slow :s

But wow, I can't believe how magical getting rid of tension was. I never really noticed that I had tension, but yesterday I tried to really see where the tension was, and in just one hour, just getting rid of the obviously tense parts, I got so much more accurate and so much less tired in my arms! Although I still can't speed up =/

[keyboardclass]

I keep the right hand p more or less all the way through just nudging the keys down with a slight flick of the fingertip and as little movement of the rest of the finger as possible.  It's easiest on my DP (which I can't stand) - the action's a little shallower.  

[lostinidlewonder]

I keep the right hand p more or less all the way through just nudging the keys down with a slight flick of the fingertip and as little movement of the rest of the finger as possible.  It's easiest on my DP (which I can't stand) - the action's a little shallower.  

Is that supposed to solve ongaku's problems? If you wanted to say something general that might help I would advise ongaku to take note of "movement groups"  while playing. That is when the hand has to move positions, use controlled pausing at these points and assess how you are moving (these are points which tend to set us up for tension in our playing). This might seem simple but you have to work out which movement groups are arbitrarily easy and those that pose some type of issue, sometimes the issue may be very small that you cannot notice it, sometimes very obvious. If you are having troubles with positions that are generally unmoving the you need to apply a conscious acknowledgement of the pattern you are undergoing, observe shape that the keys create, the balance of your hand, the sub grouping patterns of the position, then forget about them again, recalling them with the aid of hand written markings on score if necessary (especially if it is something that you don't always get right or have troubles absorbing.)

The main problem with playing pieces slower than tempo is that you can get away with inefficiencies, often when the tempo increases your playing becomes much less forgiving in this respect. When playing slow if you have multiple subtle inefficiencies to your playing when tempo increases they become too much to deal with. A keen sense of these inefficiencies while playing slow is very important but difficult if you do not know your own two hands completely and have an overall view of piano technique constantly guiding you (which logically both need to match the demands of the piece), a teacher thus is necessary for most people.

[keyboardclass]

oops