Etnicity and Piano

[bachmaninov]

Ok let's stay open minded about this topic... I have been through ALOT of competitions and concerts ect... and I cannot help but notice how almost everyone I am up against is Asian...Either from Japan, China, Korea ect.

Ok this being true... We can safely say that a majority of NEW pianists and growing pianists are in fact from asia... or have an asian background!

This leads to my question... Why are there so little FAMOUS Asian Pianist Composers, or performers??

You have to admit.. for the amount of asian insturmentalists... you would surely expect more success!

[DarkWind]

Theres Lang-Lang and Yundi-Li, two very excellent pianists in my opinion.

[bachmaninov]

True.. but of course!! there are exeptions!

[Tash]

oooh i'm seeing lang lang play next next tuesday! anyway, the asians down here are bril pianists but you'll find that when they leave school they quit piano and do medicine or engineering or something like that at uni instead. which is a shame to see them drop their wonderful talents, but hey what can you do

[Motrax]

Many Asians I know who play instruments do so solely because they are expected to do so by their parents. I don't speak for myself, but I've a fair number of Asian friends who've told me this. So that could be a factor for some - you won't continue music if you don't enjoy it.

Another factor is that music rarely pays well. There are so many wonderful pianists who are just beginning every year, and there is a very small demand for them. So a lot of times, when a musician goes to college, they get a degree which will act as a solid foundation for a future (i.e., not a music degree).

[liszmaninopin]

That's not just Asians, though.

I'm studying piano because I enjoy it, but any more I don't plan on going to a conservatory.  I'll just go to a regular college that also offers a solid music department.  That way, I can both continue to study piano at least at some level, and pursue degrees that will aid in the field I actually plan to make my living in.

[Pumpkinhead]

Yeah, I know what you guys mean about the high abundance of asian musicians, but I honestly think that they excell farther than the rest of us because of their amazing work ethics. Most asian parents expect a certain amount of practice every day, while my parents honestly don't give a crap how much I am winning. However, at my latest competition, I was the only mexican, non-asian, and that got me a bit more attention than the others. I hope that's not hwhy I won.

[scarbo87]

Yes, I know what you mean as well.

I am a White pianist, and at all my competitions 90%
are Asain-mostly Chinese and Korean. I do know for sure
that many, many are forced into it by their parents.

But, many are still very good, So I'm assuming that out
of the asian population, 80% is forced to it and 20%
really have talent and accel. I have to admit that all
the asians I know play some insturment.

And as to why there are no famous asian musicians, I would
have to say that asians in Classical music is a fairly
new thing. 20 years ago, for instance, there were no
asians in music. but now there young and coming up. So
we will see.

[scarbo87]

btw- is anyone on here asian??

[stevegong]

Yeah, I'm Asian (Chinese), except I lived all my life in Italy, so not really the typical Asian.

About the huge number of Asian pianists, I can say that in China, a LOT of kids are forced into playing at a very young age by their parents, but I've heard a lot of these kids who have been learning for 10+ years play.  Few of them put a lot of emotion in it, or are truly passionate about it.

I'd say though, that the ones who get to make it into the piano competitions are the 'few' who are passionate about it.  But of course, because so many of them learn piano, the 'few' become a big number.

That's my analogy.

Btw, I'm so glad I just found this forum, it seems like a great place!

[pianistsk8er]

Good point, Bachmaninoff.. I've really noticed that thru all of the musical events I have been to, in competitions, festivals, etc.. there are always about 65% Asian people, and this is in Canada.  

But you are right, aside Lang Lang and Yundi Li, there are way more pianists who are not Asian.. there's also Wibi Soerjadi, who is Indonesian.

[faulty_damper]

Chinese parents expect that their "investment" will pay back.  Money is one motivation for forcing their kids to learn.  Another is fame so social status.  This is important because a good pianist that is well-known brings fame for the family.  

This is also why they want their kids to be the president.  If they were not so ignorant...

So anyway, competition is a way to judge their kids because they have to be the best or better than the other.  It's an Asian thing that even non Asians are aware of but aren't too keen on it because they live in a culture of mediocrity.

[Motrax]

Not all the individuals in a culture live by its norms...

[Sketchee]

I'm not asian although my mother is filipino, but I'm from DC.  People often ask me if I play piano because my mother made me or if I'm only good because of the strictness of my culture.  Actually though, my mother is very unstrict and I could probably get away with murder but like most of you I play piano because I enjoy it.

It works in unusal ways though because since people think Asians are smart, I've noticed I can do crappy in school and be generally lazy about things.  Professors will give me a break because I must be smart so I can turn in my work late, write it in an hour and my name on the paper gives it some weight I guess. It's somewhat ridiculous.  That's probably why I work hard at piano because no one expects me too.  Unfortunately it means if I work by just finding people with that bias, I can be an idiot and still get through school and career with ease.  

I know it's different than the experiences of most, but almost all the pianist I know in person are black and the others are white females. I don't know a single white male pianist!  YMMV.

[bachmaninov]

White male pianist?

Uhh.. Van Cliburn?

[Sketchee]

White male pianist?

Uhh.. Van Cliburn?

I'm not personal friends with Van at this time, suprisingly!

[bachmaninov]

Also.... Have you ever noticed any really really good FEMALE pianists... (Yes of course there are some) But I seriously wonder why there are more MALES who excel in the piano than females...

And the Female pianists are usually underrated

-And of course... In your basic competitions and local concerts... you would notice how there are a huge majority of Female Asians

Does anyone here know of a famous female asian pianist?

[Medtner]

You wrote:
"Ok let's stay open minded about this topic... I have been through ALOT of competitions and concerts ect... and I cannot help but notice how almost everyone I am up against is Asian...Either from Japan, China, Korea ect. "

Hmm, and the Asians are thinking, "I cannot help but notice how almost everyone I'm up against is white... either from US, Canada, or Europe etc"

[paris]

i think that Asians are so numerous because China is a very big country. and if you add Japan, Corea, and the other, you get many Asians.
but i have feeling that they have better tehnique than for example Europeans.  here in Europe, we had a competition and guess who won the 1st prize in my category? A little Chinese girl, she was playing chopin etude op.25 n.12, and she was only 14!
how good tehnique...
and in oldest category, who won? A big Japanese girl. oh god, she played cesar franck coral and fuga... that was...gorgeus...she a student of arbo valdma

but, however, i noticed that italians are very musical, asians have a great tehnique, and russians...have both

[donjuan]

btw- is anyone on here asian??

haha!!  

Bachmaninov: I admire your courage!  I started noticing things like your stories, I started threads about it and there are people on the forum who threw it in my face.

[bernhard]

Does anyone here know of a famous female asian pianist?

Er…

Mitsuko Uchida
Cecile Licad
Noriko Ogawa
Beatrice Long
Yoshiko Kojima
Riiko Fukuda
Lucille Chung
Angela Cheng
Yoshiko Okada
Yoong-Chun Park
Etsko Tazaki
Guangren Zhou
Gwhyneth Chen
Gloria Cheng

Just out of the top of my head. I am sure there are more.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bachmaninov]

lol Cecile Licad is the only one ive heard of! lol

[bernhard]

You have never heard of Mitsuko Uchida?

[pianojems]

I have personally known Beatrice Long, and I have studied for years with her sister and great pianist Christina Long. They are famous for playing as the "Long Duo" We (me and the two sisters) even went to world piano pedagody conference together. Their entire family is musical. They have many siblings who play piano and violin.

[schmetterling]

Bachmaninoff, did you listen to the Sydney International by any chance? What did you think of it?

I'm also from NSW, and I do agree that a lot of Asians play piano (or violin!). Many Asian parents want to "give their kids the opportunity' and send their children to piano lessons. For every asian kid who is 'forced' to practise, I know one who loves it and would not give it up at all.

John Chen, the winner of Sydney International, seems pretty asian to me.

[scarbo87]

"Asians are technical, Italians are musical, and russians...
have both"

first of all , I would like to elaborate on the obviously
steryotypical nature of this statement. First of all, The
young Korean pianst Dong-Hyek Lim is more musical than
any Russian or Italian I know of, While the Italian antonio
Pompa-Baldi seems to be mainly concerned with technique.

On the other hand, I can see how you came up with this
conclusion: Russians have without doubt the best reputation
for concert pianism, While ppl usually associate Italinas
with romance, and asians with technique.

As to why there are so many young asian pianists, I think
it is mainly historical : Aften the cultural revoulution
in China in the 70's they were saturated by a wave of
western music, and decided to imitate all things western
in hope of acheiving success. This situation is the soil
in which Lang and Yundi li grew.

Aside from that fact, I know asians have an extremely strong
work ethic..and I have particularly noticed how Asian women
work harder than any other sex or race in piano..or at least
they are not afraid to admit they do..for example :

Cecile Licad ,  finishes her chores at 10am
and the seats herself at the piano untill sunset (without
a single break)

Paik Haesun followed a schedule of practicing from 12 to 7
am. sleeping, then practicing from 12 to 5 pm in the year
before her Kapell competition (which she one first place)

And the violinist Kyung-Wha chung practiced 14 hours a day
when she was at Julliard

.....Things you would never hear from a Russian.

[Sark1]

I would like to say that this obsevation by Bachmaninov is true. (two of my favorites to, Bach and Rach) there are many asian pianists and very few good ones at that.  Im sorry but it had to be said.  The truth is that they are technical machines with no musicality and no touch or feeling.  No musical idea or expression in thier playing.  Lastly, Whoever mentioned Lang-Lang and Yundi-Li, they are not that great.   There are thousands of other great pianists out there (nonasian) that i would listen to before i picked up thier cd's.  Yundi-Li is, though the better of the two.

[rhapsody7900]

All things Western were considered unpopular during communist China, so that's probably why we don't see a great number of Asian champions of Western music from before the last decade (probably rubbed off on neighboring Asian countries.)  

I am Asian, but I grew up in Argentina and my parents didn't want to invest me in music because they decided the likelihood of my making a career of it would be slim.  I have several friends who are Asian and were forced, have fabulous technique, but hate to play.

Maybe having a large percentage of Asians forced to play as kids yielded a large percentage of Asians that don't play despite their ability.  It's safe to say that all successful pianists at least have that desire.

[tds]

the whole "etnicity and pianists" discussion is somehow untasteful to me. i'd rather talk about foods and a good variety of restaurants available. oh, anyone likes peking duck wrap? hmmm, yuummmm.... tds

[mikeyg]

Cecile Licad ,  finishes her chores at 10am
and the seats herself at the piano untill sunset (without
a single break)

Paik Haesun followed a schedule of practicing from 12 to 7
am. sleeping, then practicing from 12 to 5 pm in the year
before her Kapell competition (which she one first place)

And the violinist Kyung-Wha chung practiced 14 hours a day
when she was at Julliard

.....Things you would never hear from a Russian.

Does this just mean that the Russian pianistss are more naturally talented?

[LVB op.57]

Certain races my teach different disciplines, which could carry over into music, but not neccesarily. So, are certain races more talented than others? No. End of story.

[mikeyg]

I wasn't serious, by the way.

[Dazzer]

i'm a singaporean. chinese.

i can safely say that most things you've mentioned about asians are quite true, regarding their work ethics, and understanding of the music

as for famous asian pianists... if you think finding them is hard, try finding a famous singaporean pianist.

music scene has only just started picking up here. New concert hall, new conservatory a couple of years old. in fact, the reason why there're the number of pianists in this country at all,is because alot of parents thought that they should "jump on the bandwagon" cuz everyone was doing it. that's me as well.

and now, i've finished school, and now serving my national service in the army. And i'm wondering what i should do. I'm being told i should go to juilliard( mind you i put "go" and not "try") or curtis. Or even join the van cliburn, or queen elizabeth. (and i told him he's nuts). BUt then if i go into a career as a pianist, how far can i go? isit worth the work? see that's where my upbringing kicks in. I'm always under pressure to succeed, to work hard, and get produce results that'll prove my worth (and possibly the worth of the family name... but admitedly that's abit old now...). if i don't think i can succeed in it, i'll just ditch the idea completely. (mind you this 2 years of military service is a PAIN IN THE ASS)

passion can only bring you that far. and no further.

[tds]

as for famous asian pianists... if you think finding them is hard, try finding a famous singaporean pianist.

for you, folks, who try to make a NOT-SO-FAIR comparison. read on!

how sensible is it of you guys, who try to compare the number of well-known white pianists with asian pianists? for your information, the western classical music has only been accepted/adopted in china since the last few decades ago. hmmm, ok! now, what about other asian countries, say, indonesia or myanmar? how many concert halls does each of this country have? how many full concerts grands are there available there? i'd be surprised if the answer is more than five designated symphonic halls, and ten full, working concert grands in both the entire country combined. a nice tingling piece of information: last time ( a couple of years back ) i heard indonesia has 0 (zero) number of designated symphony halls.

western classical music is, yes, a relatively new thing to the best majority of asians.ohhhh, you guys, don't get too shocked now!! *saw some of you just fell down from their seats?!!* golly....oh well, thought you shoulda known better!

how about giving another 50-75 years or so before getting the itches back to..... comparing? am i being fair, folks? just so you realize, no matter how many years you give for asians, they are still a few *cough*centuries*cough*late. this is the fairest i get. my three cents. tds

[mastert61]

I am half chinese, half vietnamese and I can say that persuing a musical career is not like the asian mentality. It is true that many asian kids are forced to learn music at a young age, but the proportion of kids that are forced to persue a lifetime career in piano is very small. Like someone said above, most of them will go into college in engineering or anything health related, anything safe. A musical career is not safe.
 It is exciting, challenging, but not safe at all. Only a few pianists get famous. In China, kids are forced to excel in many disciplines, not just music or sports or school.
My point is that there are so many asians that even if we feel there are a lot of asian pianists, it stays a small proportion , like any other ethnic group.
And yes russians are more talented.  They totally own the arts domain.

[dinosaurtales]

This always interests me, because we see so many asian pianists here on the west coast, too.  here it's more a matter of that old discipline thing.  It's like eating your brocolli - the parents make them do it, and force them to practice.  They get good because they practice a lot.  Most of them really don't like it, and really they are supposed to go to medical or engineering school, but it's all part of the work ethic thing they have.  Their playing is "dutiful", almost like if they make a mistake they will bring shame on their family and they'll be releagted to shucking oyseters on the docks for a living, and that's probably why none of the asian pianists here will ever be famous.

[tds]

This always interests me, because we see so many asian pianists here on the west coast, too.  here it's more a matter of that old discipline thing.  It's like eating your brocolli - the parents make them do it, and force them to practice.  They get good because they practice a lot.  Most of them really don't like it, and really they are supposed to go to medical or engineering school, but it's all part of the work ethic thing they have.  Their playing is "dutiful", almost like if they make a mistake they will bring shame on their family and they'll be releagted to shucking oyseters on the docks for a living, and that's probably why none of the asian pianists here will ever be famous.

dinosaurtales, nice piece of information there, except you have judged in your last sentence. best, tds

[dinosaurtales]

Oops.  Sorry about that.  I was just reacting to some stuff my husband found out when he spent some time in Japan on business.  THere's apparently no room in that culture for late bloomers.  You are tested when you are tiny for certain traits and "guided" - that is to say, educated, in that direction.  If you are the type that "comes into his own" when he's a teenager, it's a crying shame, because your path is pretty much set.  I guess I have trouble with that sort of pre-destiny.  Just me.

[soundtrk]

Interesting! Growing up in a certain city in the West Coast where a few years ago a local newspaper announced that native English speakers are in the minority now (followed by native Chinese speakers), I'd always thought this was a phenomenon isolated to my surroundings. I'm surprised to hear that similar things occur elsewhere in North America!

But yeah, I agree with what some of the others said. Asian parents tend to push their children into these things whether the children asked to or not. I was one of them. Many of these kids quit playing at varying stages of their training. A few makes it to the upper grade levels and/or music school. Many remain uninspired, "mechanical" players, although others "gets" it and become true musicians.

I think that's why there aren't as many famous Asian pianists as the beginning numbers may indicate. The drop-out rate between the kids and the concertizing pianist is likely higher than average.

[Steve T]

I have observed a similar trend among doctors in the UK. The Indian and Pakistani Asian communities in the UK are vast. The great majority of their children have a great work and study ethic, which leads to good qualifications and top jobs, especially in medecine.
I think that part of the reason for this is a) parental pressure and expectations, and b) many Asian children in these communities don't hang around on street corners with their English school friends as much. They tend to be more a part of their own community, socially, and spend a lot of time at home in their strong family units. This, I beleive, leads to more disciplined study.
Perhaps it's the same with regards to Chinese Asian pianists. I also think the statistical numbers is a reason too, simply because China has four times the population of America....although we don't see a high proportion of Asians in some other areas, like athletics. Interesting discussion.

[kilini]

Most Asians don't treat piano playing as anything more than something that needs to be done or a hobby. I'm of the hobby opinion. Even though I love piano and would give anything to go to Juilliard, I would never become a full-time concert pianist. It's just a way most Chineses' brains are hardwired--we are pragmatists.

Oh, and my mom pushed me into piano at the age of three/four. I hated it and quit three years later with a load of bad habits. Five years later, I started it again in the US. I loved it. Lucky, eh?

[Jay_Matt]

hey,
firstly, ur spelling is absolutely appaling! it aint 'Etnicity' but Ethnicity.

moving on...i live in Africa...can u believe it...AFRICA!!!with all da lions n everything else there is...lemme cut 2 da chase...recently there was a Young Musician's Competition held in the city where I live (cant tell u where). thing is, all the Orientals (as in people from the Far East e.g. Korea and Japan) who were in the preliminaries made it to the finals. trust me, those guys r talented! in fact on the day of the finals, the concert hall was filled with Orientals from Japan, Philippines, Korea....


well i think i hav driven my point across 2 u,

Jason

[chopinisque]

as for famous asian pianists... if you think finding them is hard, try finding a famous singaporean pianist.

I wouldn't say that... I can name one off my fingertips... Melvyn Tan... famous like crazy... speak some singlish will you?

Tds is very right.  Over here at least, music isn't taught in schools.  Many can't afford pianos.  And it isn't all that popular either... classical tradition especially...  add to that the fact that the piano has a mostly european history and you can see where this is going...

It isn't a very fair comparison much less a socially correct one!

[gezellig2005]

I don't think all asian kids are forced into playing piano. Maybe in their youth, but the parents can't really decide for them when they're older.
I started to play when I was 6, I wouldn't say I was forced into playing, cuz come on, any 6 year old would find this noise making thing fun.
In my 11 years of playing, there were times when I really wanted to quit, but I didn't because my parents wouldn't let me.
However if I look back now, I can't remember the times when I was crying infront of the piano. Even if I did, I would think it was worth it. Now I play piano as a hobby.
You have to get to a point when your techniques are good enough to satisfy yourself, I think, then, does playing become an interest.
Some ppl can be satisfied with playing Mary had a little lamb with a few wrong notes.
and I forgot what I was gonna say, but Sun YingDi from China just just JUST won the liszt competition, and he played with passion

[xvinylgurlx]

because a lot of asian parents would like their kids to be lawyers or docters

and a lot of asian kids i grew up with hated their music lessons. this one gurl i knew was called a prodigy @ julliard, but she was mostly disciplined by very strict parents.
also... i saw no passion in her eyes... she was just "a machine"
she also never created/composed a piece in her life.

this makes me think....

[jhon]

Cecile Licad ,  finishes her chores at 10am
and the seats herself at the piano untill sunset (without
a single break)

She admits that her only "break" is sipping cups and cups of coffee up to 10 cups a day  from moment to moment!

[dreamplaying]

In this very variated world I had and I currently have the opportunity to discover through wonderful events (festivals, competitions, concerts)...great pianists, from America (North, Center, South), Europe, Asia, ...so forth...to the end of the world. Great pianist from Van Cliburn, Eral Wild (USA), Glen Gould, Louis Lortie, (Canada),  Jorge Luis Pratz(Cuba), Claudio Arrau (Chile), Martha Argerich (Argentina), Daniel Baremboin (Argentina-Israel), Ana Maria Vera (Bolivia), Margerite Long, Alfred Cortot, S. Francois (France),  André Previn (German-USA), Wilhem Kempff, Backhaus Gieseking (Germany), Rudolf Serking, (Austrian-USA), Alfred Brendel (Austrian),....,Mauricio Pollini, A. B. Michelangeli (Italy),...., C. Zimerman, A. Harasiewicz (Poland),  ah¡¡¡ do not forget the russian a lot of names....you know all of them, From Richter, Horowits, Rachmaninoff, E. Kissin, etc. to the named asian pianist like Dang Thai Song (Vietnam), Yundi Li (China), Miszuko Ushida (Japan) and a long list mentioned above.

This world has brilliant pianists from everywhere, I find every single of them unic, Please do not try to make stereotypes....asian, white...whatever..