Technique exercices for stronger wrists

[nyiregyhazi]

just to add to that- there's only one action to keep the wrist stable without effort. It's actually a release of effort. Release of the upper arm allows gravity to pull the elbow backwards- hence straightening out the wrist via release instead of exertion. This is a fundamental requirement for releasing your wrist.

[keyboardclass]

Release of the upper arm allows gravity to pull the elbow backwards- hence straightening out the wrist via release instead of exertion. This is a fundamental requirement for releasing your wrist.

And if the upper arm is vertical?   The effort to keep the elbow in front of the body merely to attain a 'pull' back is nonsense.  Muscles hold it there - it is effort!  Take away the muscle action and the elbow falls back to the side of the body.   If you need false and rude remarks about my playing to obscure that fact then you do have a sad theory indeed!

[mike_lang]

Could we just have a video already?

[lostinidlewonder]

there are issues that develop over time. However the wrist issue is not one.

?

[keyboardclass]

Could we just have a video already?

Here's a video.  My teacher used to do this often to illustrate how loose a wrist should feel.

[nyiregyhazi]

?

Pushing from the arm for rapid notes destabilises the wrist unless you use large efforts. Pianists like Volodos do not "get used" to such efforts or play via stronger wrists. They play with wrists that are stabilised. Think of the middle of a suspension bridge. The efforts are sourced elsewhere- at the ends.

I speak from experience on this. Even in my late twenties I depended on arm pressure to an excess and my wrists efforts never ceased. Since I stopped pressing (and developed my previous flaccid and inept hand), my wrist muscles scarcely need to do a thing. Until you change the approach that forces wrist tension, you depend upon that tension to play. The wrong approach just does not allow any progress in this area.

[nyiregyhazi]

Here's a video.  My teacher used to do this often to illustrate how loose a wrist should feel.

That's great. But then we see you use you do this:

It doesn't matter how loose your wrist can be away from a piano, if you cannot sustain it while playing. Many exercises away from a keyboard are useful. But what matters is whether you can transfer that into the context of playing for real. Nothing matters unless it actually works. If you can't even begin to put it into practise yourself, why should anyone take you seriously? If your wrist were actually that loose WHILE PLAYING, then you might be worth listening to. As long as you upload films showing your incapability, all you show is that what you preach has failed to produce results.

[nyiregyhazi]

And if the upper arm is vertical?   The effort to keep the elbow in front of the body merely to attain a 'pull' back is nonsense.  Muscles hold it there - it is effort!  Take away the muscle action and the elbow falls back to the side of the body.   If you need false and rude remarks about my playing to obscure that fact then you do have a sad theory indeed!

Why do you judge this from your own pitiful standards of attainment? The majority of accomplished performers use such an angle. You think THEY are the ones who get tired from doing this (not you, with your embarassingly locked-up arms)? You seriously think THEY are the incompetent fools and YOU are the "expert" who knows better???!!!

Unlike you, competent pianists share support between arm and hand. The shoulder is not burdened by taking the support of an outstretched arm without aid at the other end. That's why the vast majority of them have no problem and do not have to incorporate your own shambolic attempts to compensate for the crippling arm efforts that are introduced your system. There's nothing tiring about a conventional upper arm position, when the hand shares the supporting role. YOU get tired (even with a vertical upper arm) because your hand contributes almost nothing to the balance. Accomplished pianists have no such problem.

How do you propose to play music that involves the hands reaching across the keyboard- with your arms in such a stupidly cramped position? Find a clavichord forum and stop poisioning well-meaning pianists by advising these amateurish compensations for your own inept technique. If you ever had to play any repertoire of remote difficulty (except to show "how to play" one or two bars at half tempo, with total lack of control) you would realise what limitations such staggering ignorance imposes. You need to stop advising people and start learning how to play.

PS. Unless your shoulders are held very stiffly, release would still tug back at the wrist. The centre of gravity is still forward, when the forearm is outstretched into a playing position, regardless of whether the upper arm is vertical.

[lostinidlewonder]

Pushing from the arm for rapid notes destabilises the wrist unless you use large efforts. Pianists like Volodos do not "get used" to such efforts or play via stronger wrists. They play with wrists that are stabilised. Think of the middle of a suspension bridge. The efforts are sourced elsewhere- at the ends.

I speak from experience on this. Even in my late twenties I depended on arm pressure to an excess and my wrists efforts never ceased. Since I stopped pressing (and developed my previous flaccid and inept hand), my wrist muscles scarcely need to do a thing. Until you change the approach that forces wrist tension, you depend upon that tension to play. The wrong approach just does not allow any progress in this area.

I still do not see how this means that the wrist is not something that is worked out over time. Do you believe that if someone is shown what to do they can do it immediately, everyone I know who teaches technique (whether we are talking about the wrist or not) to students notices that it takes time to appreciate, practice and make a natural habit. I did mention in my previous posts if you do not know the correct technique then you may never improve to mastery but this does not mean that you do not improve over time at all if you have no idea.

I like to take Franz Liszts approach to technique, that is technique is fingering and returns to it. If you understand the fingering in passages, (that does not mean only the finger numbers on the correct notes) then you make more logical pianistic changes to your technique, things done away from the piano merely confuse the situation you really do need context to what you do and playing your pieces with application to technique is the only way to do it. Even if the OP mentioned the pieces that cause tension this is still too generalistic, is it every single note that causes problems? Which exact passages cause most tension, which exactly fingering, these type of questions require that you are sitting next to the person and observing, some posts in this thread seem to believe that a generalistic approach can solve a specific problem, it can help a small amount but it will not even get you a fraction of the way to solve your problem.

[nyiregyhazi]

I still do not see how this means that the wrist is not something that isn't worked out over time. Do you believe that if someone is shown what to do they can do it immediately, everyone I know who teaches technique (whether we are talking about the wrist or not) to students notices that it takes time to appreciate, practice and make a natural habit. I did mention in my previous posts if you do not know the correct technique then you may never improve to mastery but this does not mean that you do not improve over time at all if you have no idea.

I like to take Franz Liszts approach to technique, that is technique is fingering and returns to it. If you understand the fingering in passages, (that does not mean only the finger numbers on the correct notes) then you make more logical pianistic changes to your technique, things done away from the piano merely confuse the situation.

You misunderstand. I don't mean that a wrist doesn't take time to master. I mean that when fast play is based upon the arm is pressing it is literally IMPOSSIBLE to relax it- without it moving all over the place and cutting off the energy transfer. You can't press through a limp hinge without both moving or losing energy. If the arm tries to press through a series of fast notes, the wrist must work harder. It's simple physics.


If you want to learn to release it, you have to remove the physical necessity of what requires those muscles to activate so much. Only then will time have anything to offer. Good pianists don't hold the wrist firmly through rapid semiquavers in a way that is "better". They just aren't doing actions that would destabilise it so much and neither are they fixing it. They suspend it. If you are practising pressing the arm and stiffening the wrist, there is no scope for improvement. I'm telling you- I wasted YEARS without progress in what had been a stiff wrist. Freeing my wrist from effort took a complete change of my premise for playing. Then it improved rapidly- because there's was no longer any purpose to stiffening it. Not instantly, but certainly rapidly.

[lostinidlewonder]

I do not want to get into generalistic technical talk without specific bars of music in consideration to some it may be interesting but it is just too wide a discussion for my tastes.

Maybe for you it was instantaneous because you had time to experience what it was to be doing it wrong? If a student is forced into doing things completely correct from the start then they may never fully appreciate as you did yourself what the correct method is when you find it. Doing things wrong is an important learning device when playing musical instruments because no one plays perfectly and we all strive towards improvement.

[nyiregyhazi]

I do not want to get into generalistic technical talk without specific bars of music in consideration to some it may be interesting but it is just too wide a discussion for my tastes.

Maybe for you it was instantaneous because you had time to experience what it was to be doing it wrong? If a student is forced into doing things completely correct from the start then they may never fully appreciate as you did yourself what the correct method is when you find it. Doing things wrong is an important learning device when playing musical instruments because no one plays perfectly and we all strive towards improvement.

So spending twenty years playing with poor control, unsatisfactory musical results and stiff wrists was just my way of leaving room for improvement? Sorry, but I couldn't put that positive a spin on it. To say that doing things wrong is important is basically circular logic. All the same benefits come from consistently never going wrong to start with. If that logic stood up, it would be useful deliberately play badly over and over- simply so you could then improve. To go wrong once can be a useful pointer- provided you know the solution. However, twenty years of stiffness prepared me for nothing in any useful way.There could be no worse way to prepare for an efficient technique. It made it very difficult to break long standing habits of inefficient actions. I still have much work to be done. The only benefit to me as a teacher- because I have only been able to improve by first having to understand what could make it possible.

[mike_lang]

Here's a video.  My teacher used to do this often to illustrate how loose a wrist should feel.

I'm sorry, I should have been more specific:  I would like to see a video of you playing, so we can see if there is something going on in your wrists that is inhibiting your sound.  It is difficult to talk about the wrist in the abstract . . .

[lostinidlewonder]

..... Sorry, but I couldn't put that positive a spin on it. To say that doing things wrong is important is basically circular logic. All the same benefits come from consistently never going wrong to start with....

This sounds like a wonderful idea but unfortunately trying to put it into practice teaching students you will find it is not as easy. I have taught hundreds of students over the years of teaching each with different and similar challenges facing their musical journey, no one learns piano by doing things perfectly at the start, if you can do this then I would be amazed and you are the literally best piano teacher in the world. However given the vast breadth of musical content there is to learn I think it would be expecting a bit much of a student to get everything right if they have never experienced the techniques demanded before and have not been given the opportunity to apply some trial and error of their own experimentation.

Maybe doing something completely wrong is not the right way, but you can do something that is not completely correct but has elements of correctness. This is what a good piano teacher can pick up on when dealing with the individual student, you find what is good and what is bad, enhance the good and try to question the bad. There simply is no single method or logical phrase or direction you could pass on to your student to make their technique perfected or spot on mastery, I am always wary of any method that believes it can pass on the "golden rod of knowledge" to the student and neglects the fact that time, trial and error and indeed a personalized approach should not be a part of the learning curve.

Peoples problems with piano is usually a specific problem rarely a general problem. A pure beginner might have general problems, use their fingers incorrectly, hold their wrists below the keys, hold their forearm non-parallel to the ground etc, things that are naturally avoided by those with some piano experience. But the OP here is talking about pieces which are certainly no where near a beginner, thus generalistic ideas simply miss the point. The OP may not even know themselves where the most tension is caused or what causes it (which is highly probably since they have only played for a short period of time), thus a teacher must be present next to them while they play, even a video will not cut it, there are too many subtle movements that you cannot catch by watching a video. You cannot see the subtle stress and inefficiency of technique through a video (and I am not about to elaborate on this issue because I don't want to write pages and pages), you need to be able to move your eyes around the position not be slaved to a particular angle that a video forces you into. When I appraise a new students technique I am standing up and walking around them, I can't just look at one position and make an evaluation you need to see the whole mechanics from different angles. The student also needs to learn by visually seeing the teacher play, hearing and also through trial and error test one technical method over the other, with a teacher you can be safely guided through this process otherwise you need to know your own two hands very well, something that not everyone can do and not something you can read about, certainly something you can keep working at and it will refine itself if you have an investigative mind and have a natural desire to try and make things easier to play (despite you not even knowing what the perfection of mastery model is).

[keyboardclass]

Why do you judge this from your own pitiful standards of attainment?

How pathetic your ill-founded theories need the support of ad hominem attacks on me.  Again I'll say, you see exactly what you want to see.

[keyboardclass]

I'm sorry, I should have been more specific:  I would like to see a video of you playing, so we can see if there is something going on in your wrists that is inhibiting your sound.  It is difficult to talk about the wrist in the abstract . . .

That'll be difficult because there is nothing inhibiting.  My vids are at www.youtube.com/keyboardclass and if anyone wishes to make comments, good or bad, please feel free to - in the audition board - don't jam up this thread.

[nyiregyhazi]

How pathetic your ill-founded theories need the support of ad hominem attacks on me.  Again I'll say, you see exactly what you want to see.

What planet are you on exactly? Do you honestly believe you are an advanced pianist who has personal experience of advanced pianism? It's not in my nature to be rude or derogatory- although as long as you advise people to impose the same restrictions upon their playing that you have put on your own development, your low level of personal attainment must be exposed. Especially when you preach this total crap about how it's supposedly okay to feel tension in the wrist and then let go (casually overlooking the fact that a wealth of repertoire that you cannot play leaves no oppourtunities for this).

[nyiregyhazi]

Peoples problems with piano is usually a specific problem rarely a general problem. A pure beginner might have general problems, use their fingers incorrectly, hold their wrists below the keys, hold their forearm non-parallel to the ground etc, things that are naturally avoided by those with some piano experience. But the OP here is talking about pieces which are certainly no where near a beginner, thus generalistic ideas simply miss the point. The OP may not even know themselves where the most tension is caused or what causes it (which is highly probably since they have only played for a short period of time), thus a teacher must be present next to them while they play, even a video will not cut it, there are too many subtle movements that you cannot catch by watching a video.

The poster said himself that he pushes from the arm. Honestly- the physics is very simple here. If you push with the arm in passages of rapid notes, your wrist will need to be stiff. Nothing else is physically possible. I'm not dealing in the fine details here but in the underlying issue. I'll be giving a number of practical illustrations in my blog that prove that such actions are extraordinarily inefficient- and actually hamper the ability of the finger to transmit anything much to the key (even when the player instinctively resorts to fixation to help).

I'm not downplaying the long period of developing and refining to any extent or claiming a magic fix for all, I assure you. However, there are many cases where it's the most basic underlying foundation of all that has to be set. Good teachers will have the instincts for how to do that anyway- but I think it's far easier to have a little background about what is possible and what is impossible. Without the most basic level of conception being in place, there's nothing to build upon. In particular, as long as a pianist depends on pushing of the arm (except for individual chords- where it can be perfectly valid) they are going to have problems. No advanced pianists pump active arm pressures into every note for Chopin Etudes. It would be impossible.

The mechanics just aren't right for an arm to push without a fixated wrist. The only situation where you can push with the whole arm without the wrist having to be stiff is the whole arm forward and up motion that Barenboim uses in the clip in my recent blog post. But that only works for things where there is enough time for both upward wrist movements and a chance to reset the arm. Understanding such simple (and factually concrete) premises can save a hell of a lot of time when you start going into the more subjective and complex stuff. This one in particular is a vital guide to have throughout the process of improvement.

[nyiregyhazi]

That'll be difficult because there is nothing inhibiting.  My vids are at www.youtube.com/keyboardclass and if anyone wishes to make comments, good or bad, please feel free to - in the audition board - don't jam up this thread.

Something is sure as hell inhibiting your left hand 2nd finger:

&list=UL

Presumably I "want to hear" that? Stop making these embarrassing self-appraisals and learn to be self-critical. You have a blind spot bigger than David Brent.

[mike_lang]

That'll be difficult because there is nothing inhibiting.  My vids are at www.youtube.com/keyboardclass and if anyone wishes to make comments, good or bad, please feel free to - in the audition board - don't jam up this thread.

With the disclaimer that the best way to address your question/problem (?) is in person with a teacher, I answer with the following:

Firstly: If there is nothing in your wrist movements inhibiting your sound, then why do you need "stronger" wrists?  Perhaps we could think also of how you could use your wrists to help your sound?

Secondly: Watching your D Minor Invention, you seem to be using your fingers almost exclusively.  I understand it is a harpsichord, but you could help yourself (especially when you play this piece on the piano) by using your wrist to guide the distribution of weight.  At least in this particular video, it looks a bit rigid (though admittedly, it is difficult to say, due to the webcam-like video quality).

Sorry that I cannot be of more help . . .

[keyboardclass]

&list=UL

Hmm, nice.

[keyboardclass]

Firstly: If there is nothing in your wrist movements inhibiting your sound, then why do you need "stronger" wrists?  Perhaps we could think also of how you could use your wrists to help your sound?

Secondly: Watching your D Minor Invention, you seem to be using your fingers almost exclusively. 

Firstly: I'm not the one asking for stronger wrists

Secondly: Yes, it's 18th century finger technique.  I save arm weight etc for Chopin and later.

[nyiregyhazi]

Hmm, nice.

You really believe that? Technically, the left hand is shambolic. You consistently fail to cope with a one octave arpeggiation of G major (a former Grade 1 arpeggio that typically took a couple of minutes to teach kids to do). You regard that as "nice"? Worse still, musically you are absolutely deaf to the foundation level example of call and response counterpoint. You treat what is very obviously a two way duet as if it were a right hand melody and a mere accompaniment in the left hand. It's embarrassing to hear such a poor grasp of contrapuntal writing at all- never mind from somebody who has delusions of expertise.

[carbe]

Wow, my thread really started a discussion...
It's hard for me to know what to do when everybody says different things. I try everything you say so I'm glad if I get professional tips.

[keyboardclass]

You really believe that? Technically, the left hand is shambolic.

That's just your delusional hearing yet again, and totally OT.

[lostinidlewonder]

The poster said himself that he pushes from the arm. Honestly- the physics is very simple here.

I still do not see how a vague description of pushing the arm can yield a complete technical prescription in words that will solve anything at all. To me this is still very vague and without musical context, to write pages and pages over vague things is in my opinion just pointless to post videos even more ludicrous.

[nyiregyhazi]

I still do not see how a vague description of pushing the arm can yield a complete technical prescription in words that will solve anything at all. To me this is still very vague and without musical context, to write pages and pages over vague things is in my opinion just pointless.

The description was not vague. It explains exactly why his wrists get tired. My point was quite simply that until he changes that basis for movement, it's literally impossible to relax the wrist. The whole premise of arm pressure hinges on it. A stiff wrist is not a musical problem (although it certainly causes plenty). No amount of musical context will change the fact that a premise based on arm-pressure will continue to perpetuate the problems with effort and tiredness.

[lostinidlewonder]

My point was quite simply that until he changes that basis for movement, it's literally impossible to relax the wrist. The whole premise of arm pressure hinges on it. A stiff wrist is not a musical a problem. No amount of musical context will change the fact that a premise based on arm-pressure will continue to perpetuate the problems with effort and tiredness.

SO you say you can improve technically without considering any piece that you play, that you make technical changes without the music in consideration and exactly which parts cause you problems??? This is certainly not how music is taught in my country or any other I have visited.

[nyiregyhazi]

SO you say you can improve technically without considering any piece that you play, that you make technical changes without the music in consideration and exactly which parts cause you problems??? This is certainly not how music is taught in my country or any other I have visited.

Of course. It's important to approach it from both ends. If a person played with their palms face up, they could not realise their musicality fully. It can be almost as limiting to the results if you depend a stiff wrist or whatever else. While musical results are the goal, no musical insight will fix such a problem. My sound has improved far more in the past couple of years of adopting new technical principles, than it did for years of focusing solely on music.

[lostinidlewonder]

Of course. It's important to approach it from both ends.

What do you mean?

If a person played with their palms face up, they could not realise their musicality fully.

Palms face up? I can't say I have ever seen the piano played this way or are you trying to say this to explain something?

It can be almost as limiting to the results if you depend a stiff wrist or whatever else.

An upside down hand on the keyboard is worse than a stiff wrist in my opinion.

While musical results are the goal, no musical insight will fix such a problem. My sound has improved far more in the past couple of years of adopting new technical principles, than it did for years of focusing solely on music.

You are misunderstanding what I mean by musical, I mean you need a piece of music to work on, that is how we develop our technique, if you can't use pieces you use exercises but that is more suited for the beginner/intermediate. You do not improve your technique away from pieces of music. I would like to see anything that can teach piano playing without requiring a piano, it just has never been done before and you might be on something amazing if you can explain yourself.

[nyiregyhazi]

"Palms face up? I can't say I have ever seen the piano played this way or are you trying to say this to explain something?
An upside down hand on the keyboard is worse than a stiff wrist in my opinion."

Of course. So logically, it shows that a flawed premise in physical approach is a stumbling block to conveying musicality. Just because other faults are not quite so obviously dumb as a face up palm, does not mean they should not be dealt with as the physical issues they are.

"You are misunderstanding what I mean by musical, I mean you need a piece of music to work on, that is how we develop our technique, if you can't use pieces you use exercises but that is more suited for the beginner/intermediate. You do not improve your technique away from pieces of music. I would like to see anything that can teach piano playing without requiring a piano, it just has never been done before and you might be on something amazing if you can explain yourself."

Try some of the exercises in my blog. The one at the end of my most recent post is something that has been extremely useful to me. I'm writing these as much for personal benefit as for anyone else's. It's given me far more sensitivity to how much difference there is between simply a held arm and a released arm. There should be hundreds of states in between. This exercise has given me far more options to put into practise- at a keyboard. It helps greatly with the execution of musical phrasing. Of course we develop technique through music. That goes without saying. Why does that exclude any alternate options alongside it? Nobody said you have to give up practising at a piano, did they?

[lostinidlewonder]

Of course. So logically, it shows that a flawed premise in physical approach is a stumbling block to conveying musicality. Just because other faults are not quite so obviously dumb as a face up palm, does not mean they should not be dealt with as the physical issues they are.

Palm up is an obvious observation of incorrect technique, the subtle technical inefficiencies or tangents from mastery require that we learn from music that requires the technique requested of us that causes us the challenge. As a teacher we then work the students through these difficult parts and then verbalize our solution directly related to the piece of music that they are playing. So I still do not understand what you are trying to say sorry.

Try some of the exercises in my blog. The one at the end of my most recent post is something that has been extremely useful to me. I'm writing these as much for personal benefit as for anyone else's. It's given me far more sensitivity to how much difference there is between simply a held arm and a released arm. There should be hundreds of states in between. This exercise has given me far more options to put into practise- at a keyboard. Of course we develop technique through music. That goes without saying. Why does that exclude any alternate options alongside it?

So you promote exercises but avoid learning technique through pieces? We had a large discussion on pianostreet years ago and the consensus not surprisingly, is that we learn a great deal more from pieces than exercises. I still also do not see how the wrist is so isolated from the rest of the technical issues of piano playing (and the wrist is only a very small part of our piano technique). So isolated improvements to our wrist without context to our fingering of particular phrases of music makes little sense and will not have a ubiquitous effect on our technique when we try pieces.

[nyiregyhazi]

That's just your delusional hearing yet again, and totally OT.

Who do you think you are fooling? This a forum for professional musicians and teachers. You accuse me of being delusional for hearing the serious flaws in this?

Do you think professional musicians would regard that as adequate? I expect far higher standards from the young Grade 2 students I've taught the piece to, and I am not exaggerating. What makes you think you have attained a mastery that exempts you from honest professional criticism? Have some dignity and learn to take it on the chin.

[keyboardclass]

You accuse me of being delusional for hearing the serious flaws in this?

Not only delusional but a stalker.  Just stick to the topic.

[nyiregyhazi]

"Palm up is an obvious observation of incorrect technique, the subtle technical inefficiencies or tangents from mastery require that we learn from music that requires the technique requested of us that causes us the challenge. As a teacher we then work the students through these difficult parts and then verbalize our solution directly related to the piece of music that they are playing. So I still do not understand what you are trying to say sorry."

That, simply because something is not as immediately obvious a problem as a face-up palm, does not mean it cannot be a major block to the musical results. And that nothing that lies in music will necessarily lead to the solution- when a problem is rooted in a physical issue. If you explore basic issues of mechanics, it becomes obvious that trying to use the arm to press through the hand with a loose wrist is as almost as problematic as a face-up palm. 

"So you promote exercises but avoid learning technique through pieces?"

Where did I say that? It couldn't be further from the truth. I said the very opposite- that opening a door to a new way of learning does not require you to close off any other ones.

"So isolated improvements to our wrist without context to our fingering of particular phrases of music makes little sense and will not have a ubiquitous effect on our technique when we try pieces."

Well, it sure as hell did on mine. What more can I add? You speak as if the above is an absolute truth. If you believe that is absolutely true, you hence believe I am either mistaken or a liar. I'd urge you to open your mind.

[lostinidlewonder]

Where did I say that? It couldn't be further from the truth. I said the very opposite- that opening a door to a new way of learning does not require you to close off any other ones.

Why should I look at your exercises then?

 

I said:
"So isolated improvements to our wrist without context to our fingering of particular phrases of music makes little sense and will not have a ubiquitous effect on our technique when we try pieces."

you reply:
Well, it sure as hell did on mine. What more can I add?

Anecdotal stories just don't cut it for me sorry


You are a new comer here so I am picking your brain, I have done this to others who have come to pianostreet presenting new ideas, I am not interested in you personally one bit but am interested in all things piano.

[keyboardclass]

Anecdotal stories just don't cut it for me sorry

And with that I certainly agree.

[nyiregyhazi]

"Why should I look at your exercises then?"

Precisely because opening a new door does not close any other ones? I don't understand your point. What are you scared of exactly? What is the worst that can happen from developing aspects of movement in a new way and applying it to music? Would your musicality suddenly be caused to disappear as a result and leave you playing like a computer? Seriously- what is there to be afraid of?

[nyiregyhazi]

Regarding anecdotes- here's what the solely through music approach did for my technique. Seemingly relaxed on the surface most of the time- but I was actually as stiff as hell and experienced a lot of discomfort. The pathetically limp fingers are being forced through by the arm-  causing far too much effort.

Here's an improved version, although still far from what I am hoping to achieve:

[lostinidlewonder]

I know there are many approaches to music, that is what (for me) make it such a wonderful discipline to learn. So certainly you may have success in your method I am not saying you are not. I know how to solve all technical issues student face with a vast array of strategies, I am alway open to new ideas but I need to understand them COMPLETELY, that is I need to be a master of it before I want to teach it to other. Some fantastic teachers I have had to honor to work with can teach so well but they cannot write in words how they do it.

[richard black]

Wow, my thread really started a discussion...
It's hard for me to know what to do when everybody says different things. I try everything you say so I'm glad if I get professional tips.

I'm afraid we're not being of much help to you here. If I were you I would ignore this whole thread. It has descended largely to a catastophically badly-argued squabble between two people who, in my honest opinion, have far too many words for far too little thinking. I'm quite sure both are fundamentally well-intentioned but even I, as a pianist of 40 years' experience, have trouble understanding what they're on about most of the time.

[thalbergmad]

If I were you I would ignore this whole thread.

Best advice in Pianostreets history.

Thal