Technique exercices for stronger wrists

[carbe]

Hello!
I feel that my fingers technique is quite okay, but sometimes when I play difficult pieces my wrist's getting tired.
Do anyone know some good technique exercices for the wrists, to not get them tired?

[keyboardclass]

[omar_roy]

Try relaxing them.

[keyboardclass]

Could be.  The 'wrist' as such doesn't really exist.  Do you mean the hand extensors?

[fleetfingers]

Try doing one-octave arpeggios: for example, C E G C. Keep going up and down the arpeggio, moving your wrist in a circular motion. It should go down when you hit the first (lowest) note of the arpeggio, then to the right as you go up to the highest note, then circulate back around on the upper half of your imaginary circle until you get back to your starting note. Go back up, then down (keep repeating) - all the while keeping your wrist loose and relaxed and moving in a counter-clockwise circular direction. Your circle needn't be very big.

[pianisten1989]

Could be.  The 'wrist' as such doesn't really exist.  Do you mean the hand extensors?

Öööh, what? What do you mean with the wrist doesn't exist? Maybe it's not the right word (english isn't my native) but come on. Everyone knows what you mean if you ask about this.

It's about being relaxed. You can always lift weights and stuff, but that wont help you forever..
Stand on one finger, and then do circles with your wrist. and go up and down as far as you can. Stuff like that will help you :

[keyboardclass]

Öööh, what? What do you mean with the wrist doesn't exist? Maybe it's not the right word (english isn't my native) but come on. Everyone knows what you mean if you ask about this.

Everyone thinks they know.  The best you can get is the set of 8 little bones and how would you go about strengthening them?  I would think the poster means extensors/flexors of the hand.

[carbe]

Thanks for all your comments!

Everyone thinks they know.  The best you can get is the set of 8 little bones and how would you go about strengthening them?  I would think the poster means extensors/flexors of the hand.

Maybe it's my hand, but it feels like I get tired in my wrist. However, is it the same exercises to be stronger with in my hand? Or what do you recommend?

Try doing one-octave arpeggios: for example, C E G C. Keep going up and down the arpeggio, moving your wrist in a circular motion. It should go down when you hit the first (lowest) note of the arpeggio, then to the right as you go up to the highest note, then circulate back around on the upper half of your imaginary circle until you get back to your starting note. Go back up, then down (keep repeating) - all the while keeping your wrist loose and relaxed and moving in a counter-clockwise circular direction. Your circle needn't be very big.

It seems like a good exercise. I just have a few questions... how fast shall I do this? And how long? I also wonder how long it will take until the wrist will be better?

[keyboardclass]

Exactly where in your hand/wrist/arm does it get tired?

[carbe]

Exactly where in your hand/wrist/arm does it get tired?

Just at the end of the hand, at the wrist. Right where your hand is bent.

[stevebob]

Is it possible that your wrists are in an excessively low position while practicing/playing?

[carbe]

Is it possible that your wrists are in an excessively low position while practicing/playing?

No, I'm very careful not to have them to low.

[keyboardclass]

Just at the end of the hand, at the wrist. Right where your hand is bent.

Are you sure it's not about a half or an inch further along on the arm?

[carbe]

Are you sure it's not about a half or an inch further along on the arm?

No, I'm not absolutely sure, but it feels like it's in the wrist.

[fleetfingers]

It seems like a good exercise. I just have a few questions... how fast shall I do this? And how long? I also wonder how long it will take until the wrist will be better?

How fast? Well, as long as you're not straining yourself and it doesn't hurt to do it, you should be able to go as fast as you can play the arpeggio.

How long? I start with C E G C - going up and down twice, then go up and do it in all keys until I get to C again.

The exercise I suggested is designed to train the pianist to play with a supple wrist and to AVOID injury. It is not a physical therapy exercise designed to HEAL your wrists. They will probably continue to hurt if you don't change the way you use them in your playing, so you have to apply the supple movements to all of your playing. Do your wrists hurt away from the piano, too? I am not a doctor and can't say how long it would take to heal if that is the case.

[hastur]

Arpeggio exercises in general should be good for this. I wrote this little arpeggio one night when I was getting profoundly annoyed with how slow I played and how quickly I got tired/sore.

https://musescore.com/score/5173

[pianisten1989]

Are you sure it's not about a half or an inch further along on the arm?

Why do you have to be such a know it all?!
I haven't heard a single soul say something else than wrist, and if someone said "Whatever you said it was called" almost everyone wouldn't know what you were talking about.

Geez, I really wouldn't want you as master in the masterclass...

[keyboardclass]

If you wish to develop a muscle it helps to know which one!

[pianisten1989]

Yeah, and since everyone in the world, except you, call it wrist... Nah, I guess we're the stupid ones

[carbe]

Please stop fighting. It won't help anyone.
But I'm very glad that you're trying to help me!
I will do arpeggio exercises every day and see if it will help. Before, I always became tired in the finger while playing, and then I started to use my wrists (or what you call it) more and more and now I get tired in them instead.
I'm pretty good on practising a piece slowly, and then use a metronome to increase slowly, so I don't think that's a problem.

[keyboardclass]

Yeah, and since everyone in the world, except you, call it wrist... Nah, I guess we're the stupid ones

The wrist a muscle?  That's being a little too loose with terms.

[ongaku_oniko]

When I say "my wrist is getting tired", I'm talking about the part right above the arm bones, where you feel two little round things sticking out, one on each side of the wrist...

and I'm pretty sure that's what most people are talking about when they say wrist.

[carbe]

When I say "my wrist is getting tired", I'm talking about the part right above the arm bones, where you feel two little round things sticking out, one on each side of the wrist...

and I'm pretty sure that's what most people are talking about when they say wrist.

Well, it's almost there I get tired, maybe a little bit more up on the arm, but it feels like the wrist.

[keyboardclass]

Aha!  Now you've hit the nail on the head.  My bet is the feelings are on the thumb side?  In that case it is your hand extensors and it's of some relevance that you know why.  When you press a key down the back of the hand by the wrist tries to go up (hand flexion) instead of the key going down.  To insure the key goes down and not the back of the hand up you have to tighten the muscle that pulls the back of the hand toward the arm (extension).  This muscle attaches just by said bump on the thumb side of the hand.  The faster you play, the louder you play, the harder this muscle has to work.   It is especially worked hard by finger articulation.  Using the arm instead gives it a bit of a break.

Sorry, was that a bit 'know it all'?

[carbe]

Aha!  Now you've hit the nail on the head.  My bet is the feelings are on the thumb side?  In that case it is your hand extensors and it's of some relevance that you know why.  When you press a key down the back of the hand by the wrist tries to go up (hand flexion) instead of the key going down.  To insure the key goes down and not the back of the hand up you have to tighten the muscle that pulls the back of the hand toward the arm (extension).  This muscle attaches just by said bump on the thumb side of the hand.  The faster you play, the louder you play, the harder this muscle has to work.   It is especially worked hard by finger articulation.  Using the arm instead gives it a bit of a break.

Sorry, was that a bit 'know it all'?

I really think you're right!
The faster I play, the more tired I become...
I have to change this! Please give me some tip or exercises that can help me, cause I don't know how to do myself.

But I don't understand... I've been told that my wrist shall go up at the same time as I put a key down.

David

[keyboardclass]

But I don't understand... I've been told that my wrist shall go up at the same time as I put a key down.

Do you mean to say you've been told your wrist should go up as the key goes down?

Does this help you understand better?  Put one hand on the muscle bump while the other is extended. Let the hand drop, feel the bump disappear. Raise the hand and feel it return.

[carbe]

Do you mean to say you've been told your wrist should go up as the key goes down?

Does this help you understand better?  Put your hand on the muscle bump while it is extended. Let the hand drop, feel the bump disappear. Raise the hand and feel it return.

Yes, I think I understand now. But I don't really know how to practise it. Shall I do as they do in the video? How long shall I do this?

I'm pretty sure that someone told me to raise the wrist when I put a key down, so I've really thought of doing that...

[keyboardclass]

That's not they, that's me in the video.  I would get a https://www.thera-band.com/store/products.php?ProductID=20 and use it.  It'll also help with elbow problems.  I have nothing whatsoever to do with the company but I can see how they work and they're the best thing on the market I've seen.  I may even buy one myself someday!

[carbe]

Alright... but I have one more question please!
Won't my fingers become tired if I not raise the wrist? How shall I work with the arm? Cause if I just use the fingers, they'll probably become tired very fast.

[keyboardclass]

The back of your hand and your forearm should be parallel i.e. the angle of your wrist should be 180 degrees.  If you are using arm weight/muscle the wrist will start much higher, drop, the relax level with the forearm.

Is this silent vid any help?  It illustrates scratching and gripping (wrist 180 degrees), flicking, and 'dropping and flopping'.

[carbe]

But aren't you moving your wrists up and down on that video? Wasn't that what I should't do? I thought you mean that the hand should move from the wrist, but the wrist shouldn't move itself?

[pianisten1989]

Okay, the thing is... if the wrist is relaxed, it will move along with your playing. If you look at my previous post, you'll find how to practice a relaxed wrist.

And how is scratching going to help anyone? The only thing that does is to make your wrist.. sorry HAND EXTENSORS, even more stiff. To move one finger, and lock the rest, is far from a 'organic' motion

[keyboardclass]

But aren't you moving your wrists up and down on that video? Wasn't that what I should't do? I thought you mean that the hand should move from the wrist, but the wrist shouldn't move itself?

Scratching or gripping is what you do on most notes.  Dropping then flopping is for accented notes like the beginnings of phrases.  Flicking is usually for staccato.  This does not 100% explain their roles.

[keyboardclass]

To move one finger, and lock the rest, is far from a 'organic' motion

You see fingers 4 and 5 locked!?  Weird.

[carbe]

I feel like I get very different answers on my question ... I am a bit confused.
How shall I know which of you two who have the right method?

[keyboardclass]

I was confused for many, many years.  I shouldn't expect yours to go in any hurry.

[pianowolfi]

Hello!
I feel that my fingers technique is quite okay, but sometimes when I play difficult pieces my wrist's getting tired.
Do anyone know some good technique exercices for the wrists, to not get them tired?

The wrists get only tired if you are tense. So you need to work on your flexibility in the wrist. That has nothing to do with strength but with the right balance between tonus (muscle tone) and relaxation.
Most people who complain about tiredness in the wrists are just tense. And often they are tense up to a very scary degree!
The picture of that lady in the first answer is nice to watch but it has nothing to do with piano playing nor with this problem. Nor will any "strengthening exercises" help to resolve it.

[mike_lang]

Hello!
I feel that my fingers technique is quite okay, but sometimes when I play difficult pieces my wrist's getting tired.
Do anyone know some good technique exercices for the wrists, to not get them tired?

I can't say I've ever felt fatigue in the wrist itself, but could you tell us what sort of passages you are playing that leave you with that feeling?

Mike

[nyiregyhazi]

Ah, I see that the klutz is still insisting this nonsense about the importance of stiffening the wrist to counter reaction forces. Funnily enough- you've got the whole of the rest of your arm behind that wrist, should you care to release it a little more. Simply releasing the upper arm pulls on the wrist more than well enough to balance out the reaction force that pulls it up- without the wrist having to work harder at all. If you have wrist problems, try my latest blog post. You need to stabilise it from both ends (shoulder and finger) if you want to be able to release it more. If you don't do that, it will have to work a lot harder.

[keyboardclass]

So, my stalker's found me.

[nyiregyhazi]

I couldn't give a damn about you. I just hate seeing appalling misguided advice about the necessity of stiffening the wrists. I don't care if that comes from you or any other self-appointed "expert" on piano technique (who can barely even play the instrument). Not that I've ever encountered anyone else who plays to your level yet has such delusions of expertise, though.

[keyboardclass]

I suppose I should feel flattered being stalked across the internet!

[nyiregyhazi]

Instead of taking a compliment where none exists, perhaps you should feel motivated to do some more research into the mechanics of the arm? Perhaps then you wouldn't persist in making such truly dangerous and erroneous claims as that the only way to counter the reaction force is with localised muscles around the wrist? That a totally ill-informed and totally inaccurate claim. That is only ONE way of dealing with it (not the solitary physical possibility) and it is a very bad and unhealthy one- hence the stiffness that the poster is currently experiencing in these muscles. I would have felt motivated to post had anyone else made that claim- although the fact that you are the one making it is hardly a surprise...

[pianisten1989]

I agree. Why does so many pianist (read: teachers who, most of the times, are terrible pianists) insist on having tension in the wrist and "scratching" and "gripping" the notes. How is that helping anyone?
We have arms, and a back, why do you want people to not using them? Try playing above mf in a high speed and gripping and scratching.
That doesn't make any sense at all. It's like eating, but only with your toungue, and not using your teeth.. Yeah, it's really that stupid.

[keyboardclass]

Whoever said you could?

[pianisten1989]

Well, that's what you're showing in your videos...

[keyboardclass]

Does it look like I'm playing louder than mf?

[nyiregyhazi]

It doesn't matter how loud you're playing. Using the localised muscles around the wrist to strain against reaction forces is just about the most basic schoolboy error in the whole of piano playing. Just because you have dealt with the limitations by rarely playing much beyond mf and avoiding difficult pieces does not make it good technique. The negative effects of this needless physical exertion in your videos is evident in even the quietest passages too. It is gravely irresponsible to portray yourself as an expert. Advising someone with a locked wrist to use flimsy little scratching actions could scarcely be further from tje right way to go. It's a recipe to lock up his wrist even more. If he wants a technique like yours, it's right way to go certainly- but that is NOT intended as an encouragement in any respect.

Go and learn to play the piano for yourself and stop pretending to be an expert on how it's done.

[richard black]

Using the localised muscles around the wrist to strain against reaction forces is...

...obviously essential. Well 'strain' is putting it a bit strongly, but whether you like it or not you use the muscles around the wrist to keep the hand in roughly the right place every time you press a key on the piano, apart from the very rare occasion where (for visual effect, probably) you manage to use just the weight of the hand.

The point is that with good technique you use these muscles very briefly and it doesn't actually feel as if you're using them, but it seems to me self-evident that you use them or your hand would end up pointing at the ceiling.

[nyiregyhazi]

It's not true that this follows. Take a look at the posts on my blog, if you want to see the explanation. I'm not saying the muscles would do literally zero, but assuming these muscles are the sole means of stabilisation is inherently untrue. Focusing on those muscles as the sole means of stability leads to a lot of wasted effort. I am quite certain that I barely use them at all any more- certainly not as the primary means of absorbing reaction forces. The arm as a whole can absorb this force- when in a particular state.