Action: Grand v. Upright - significant differences?

[bbush]

Greetings, fellow pianists!

On another thread, I had recommended a digital piano with weighted grand-like action over an old upright to a soon-to-be-on-ones-own player with limited space and budget.  Then, Richardblack wrote right back that "the difference between grand and upright action is a complete red herring", which I found kinda shocking, since I've noted a significant difference between all uprights and spinets compared to most grands I've played on (I would say ALL grands, but some old ones' actions get "squishy" as they wear).

Especially with repeating fast notes, it seems to me there's just no comparison between a true grand action, where the hammer falls back with gravity v. the little snapper-bands that whip the vertical hammer back in an upright.  And, otherwise, it's hard for me to describe the difference in attack (as the note begins to sound), but I definitely feel it, hear it, and know what I prefer!  What about you?

Thanks for your opinion,
Bruce

[john90]

I don't think it makes a huge difference learning on an upright versus a grand piano. I think there is more difference, much more, between using a digital (even with grand like action) and an upright. The pedals are still a joke on most digitals I have tried. I agree that bad actions are bad for beginners.

I think of a digital as a different type of instrument: a practice piano. It doesn't need to be that accurate a simulation. I almost think it could be confusing, if the two, digital and acoustic, are too similar.

[keys60]

bbush,

There are differences btw a grand action and an upright, console and spinet.
A spinet has whats called a drop action, where the action drops down in the cabinet and back up to the strike point saving space, allowing shorter strings and overall frame. Small, pretty and cheap. More levers theoretically, more play, however, I still have an old Baldwin Acrosonic that shames many larger pianos and the action is quick as a jack rabbit.

Consoles and uprights generally have what's called a direct blow. Less parts, less play and lost motion, longer strings, more sound depending on height.

Keep in mind, overall quality of build has much to do with it. Not all grands will out play a well made vertical, but depending on a players ability, and overall build, a grand should be the piano of choice.

As far as learning; any decent piano will not be found frustrating. A highly advanced player may eventually out play a vertical though and appreciate a well maintained grand. Such as my daughter. My 2 verticals get the job done but we both notice the difference with Bachs trills and the speed of some of her Chopin pieces. I'm looking around for a decent grand myself.

Previous wear and tear have quite a bit to do with action too as well as how well a piano has been maintained and regulated.

Grand pianos, considered the best action, has a repetition lever that resets the hammer quicker for its next strike.

All have springs. Uprights are not returned with a "bandy thing" but a hammer spring. The strap you see on the upright action is called a bridal strap: keeps the action parts from falling all over the place especially when removed from the piano.

You can find pretty detailed diagrams of piano actions easily online with a search if you
are interested.

I could go on further but I'm not one for overly detailed responses. Typing bores me.
Hope you find this at least a little helpful.

Curtis

[bbush]

Thanks, Curtis!  Yes, I did learn something(s) I didn't know about uprights' and spinets' actions.  And that explains why I have been surprised at how good spinet actions sometimes seem.  Evidently, I didn't know what the upright bands did, either.

But I really expect more people have experienced the superiority of a grand action.  Maybe we'll hear from others... 

And while I realize most folks would prefer any acoustic piano over a digital one, I maintain my appreciation for those weighted-key grand-feel digitals that have sampled grand tones, especially where one needs a low-volume practice instrument.  But, yes, the pedals are a joke on most of 'em!  Luckily, mine has such a large dynamic range, I don't need a soft pedal.  But I DO miss the real damper action of my old grand for sustain effects!

Bruce 

[richard black]

I didn't say that there is no difference between upright and grand action, but it's not huge and shouldn't really matter. There is certainly far more difference between good and bad uprights, and between good and bad grands too, than between a good grand and a good upright (I own one of each). The basic relation between the key going down and the sound coming out is very similar, and the much-discussed difference in repetition isn't vast, really. Incidentally, Steingräber makes an upright piano with a true repetition action, and I heard many years ago that a design had been produced but major manufacturers couldn't be bothered implementing it.

[silverwoodpianos]

One main difference between the upright action and the grand piano action;

 The repetition lever invented in 1823 by French mechanical genius Sébastien Érard.

 In a grand action the repetition lever allows the jack to re-set back under the knuckle by elevating the hammer stem, knuckle, and head above the point where it begins its movement from stationary.

This double escapement allows faster trilling without releasing the key entirely. For the most part Richard is correct; many music students learn up into the higher levels of RCT without the use of a grand. However it is beneficial to have a grand action past RCT level 8. This allows for the faster repetition of the music played correctly.

Double escapement uprights have been made, however the cost is high and the end product never functioned well; not as well as the repetition in a grand lets say…

[john90]

Sidelining back to the digital topic also addressed by the OP in the question: Can you sense the jack resetting under the knuckle on a digital piano? Can you sense the hammer releasing, not quite hitting the string and coming down again? We can feel/sense something special going on when we press the keys of a real piano. This is without even hearing a note. I have never felt anything like this on a digital piano, no matter how Grand like they claim to be. I have always felt totally cheated by this. How can the manufacturer claim it is a 'grand' action, when it lacks so many basic sensations that are even present in (almost) every upright? People get conned, me included first off, into thinking that they are getting a better touch than an upright.

[silverwoodpianos]

Two things I object to regarding the electric pianos or digital keyboards.

The first is the lack of expression that can be obtained. When you strike the key on a digital the sound is gone in 10 seconds or so….on an acoustic piano the sound continues for up to 30 seconds or more depending upon the way the key is played…..

The second thing is the lack of value retention. I do not have a desire to sell something to a client to then tell them a few years later that the instrument is now worthless. This is a problem with all electronics and has been for a long time, not just electric keyboards and pianos.

No matter how old or new, the acoustic piano’s touch, feel, and expression, simply cannot be matched by electronics.

The third unmentioned problem I have is that I just don’t like microwave pianos.

[richard black]

Re Dan Silverwood's post directly above:

The lack of sustain in digital instruments puzzles me, frankly. It's trivial to make it as long as anyone could desire, but it isn't done.

Value retention - yes, quite. Speaking as someone capable of both playing and fixing digital and real pianos, I can assure you digitals will be recycling fodder very much quicker than real pianos even if someone with electronics skills is to hand - the parts just won't be available, and can't be made to order.

'Microwave pianos' - excellent, ROFL! That'll get quoted...

[john90]

I have thought for a long time about the ultimate digital piano. This would be a quality Acoustic piano. In silent digital mode, thick felt would slide in between the hammers and the strings and dampen everything. A thin plastic film with led's on one side and light receptors on the other would be mounted on the action between each hammer to measure hammer head speed on release. There would be a similar film on the keybed to measure acceleration and velocity of the keys (perhaps with a holographic/reflective sticker underneath each key, measuring phase change or other property in reflected light).

With the accurate acceleration and velocity of the key, with this and hammer velocity it should be possible to simulate touch and tone. The pianist could get expert feedback, graphs on accuracy, consistency of touch. This would be displayed on a flexible thin film LED touch screen on the bench. In digital mode with headphones, tone could be modulated and exaggerated based on key acceleration to demonstrate the use of a different touch.

Sounds from the actual piano playing an actual piece of interest could be recorded during non-digital play. These key combinations could be saved with interference as reference points, and variations on the piece, different tempo and peddling could be interpolated real time by software during digital play.

Digital pianos have along way to go.