height of black keys over the white keys

[noambenhamou]

I bought a new steinway B and the black keys seemed way too high. I had the tech lower them just a tiny bit which I like better.
I went to the local college the other day to play their pianos. I played 3 old steinways all which still had the black keys much lower than mine - and it was easier to play.
I can't locate a ruler but I put a AA battery on the white key, and it's EXACTLY has high has the black keys. When I press the black key down all the way, the tip of it (closest to me) is about 2mm over the white, and the far end of it is about 3mm above the white keys.

Any thoughts? what is the standard height of the black keys? I've tried google searching but could find no information.
Thank you

[richard black]

Interesting question - never thought about it before, nor noticed any difference between pianos. I've got two here, a Bechstein Model V grand (1889) and an Ibach 122cm upright (1986). On the Bechstein, the blacks are about 11.5mm higher than the whites, while on the Ibach it's about 12.5mm. An AA battery is 14mm in diameter.

[keys60]

Good question.

From what I gather:

  Richard's pianos are pretty close. Getting frazzled over 1/10 of a mm or 2 is splitting hairs if they are all level. (Nice pianos too, by the way Richard!)

12.5mm to 13mm is pretty much the average height. Not all pianos sharps are exactly the same size. They can vary a bit in height, width and thickness.

More importantly is the "dip" of the key which is the distance the key travels downward to a stop. That would affect playing more. They dip of a key on the sharps is 3/8 of an inch or 10.5mm. On a Steinway, just to be difficult, is .390 of an inch. The rule of thumb in laymans terms should be the sharp dips to the thickness of a nickel above the surface of the naturals. That may be arguable amongst the super genius techies out there.

Any of these specs that you don't like can be easily regulated to your liking by adding or removing paper spacers of varying thickness under your keys.

Hope this helps (and is somewhat correct) and hey!!!....good luck with that new B. I'm jealous.

[noambenhamou]

thanks for the info. unfortunatly - all the paper spacers from the black keys have been removed by the technician about a month ago.
I'm going to have the blacks replaced anyway soon here with the wood finish like on the D's. The wood finish soaks up my sweaty fingers.

[john90]

I'd insist the tech gives you everything that comes off the piano. As you are not happy with these black keys, I would definitely ask to keep the old ones, assuming they are not just re-polishing your original ones. Apart from being able to get back to an "As supplied new" state, if there is any problem with the fit of the new ones in future, when wood has become acclimatised to your home for example, a future tech, 10 years down the road, can try an old one, see what differences exist between the replacements and originals.

[keys60]

You said this piano was new? And you are already had all the punchings (spacers) removed and are replacing the sharps? Please keep in mind, if you are going to get poly keys replaced with wooden ones on a Steinway B, make sure they are real ebony and ebony of a good quality. There are quite a few different varieties of ebony. Some harder than others and some will retain their blackness and not leach out as much with time. Also, some keys are made of black dyed wood of a different species. Can't say they are all bad, just not as good as a high quality ebony. It IS a Steinway after all.  

[silverwoodpianos]

A black key should be above the height of the white key by about the thickness of a nickel.

[keys60]

Thanks Dan. I use the nickel method for the dip too, but I thought some of the super techies might have it down to a zillionth of a cm. 

[silverwoodpianos]

No super method just the high tech money solution which I see after re-reading the whole thread you had already mentioned.

[noambenhamou]

I just requested my tech to get the black keys on order.
He said he will try to order them directly from steinway.
thanks for the info - i'll ask him to save my original black keys.
Why in the world would they not put the wood finish on the B's but put them on the D's?

[keys60]

Why in the world would they not put the wood finish on the B's but put them on the D's?


To start out with, a D cost twice as much. Fine ebony is becoming scarce and is expensive. Conservation efforts are trying to cut down on its use. Kind of like pernambuco from Brazil, widely used in making good to fine bows for playing stringed instruments.

[noambenhamou]

yeah this pissed me off enough i'm not going to replace my blacks afterall...

On the 20th of May I'm flying to the factory in Queens and I have an all day appointment to pick from 5 D's they have there. I like the D's much better. I love my B. My steinway store is very nice. (I think they make about 60k profit from this )They'll pick up by B tomorrow, and let me keep a 1992 D until I pick my new D from the factory and until the 4-6 weeks shipping. My tech (who use to be in charge of voicing the D's at the factory) text messaged me when I told him my decision and said "you can't go wrong with a D". hahaha cracked me up!
It's alot of $$$ but now I'M DONE! As far as i'm concerned there is no better. The Humburg steinways don't trigger my curiosity so that's saving me about 60k

[keys60]

I grew up in Queens. Never been to the Steinway factory, but bought a Sohmer from their factory down the block. Steinway was a little out of our league. Are you really saving by purchasing direct from the factory? I thought Steinway was pretty much a fixed priced instrument without much negotiating room no matter where you purchased from, unlike other makers.
Regardless, I'd have to agree with your tech. You can't go wrong with the D. Scaled great and so easy to tune. Not a whole lot of "junk" noise to interfere.
Congratlations. Wish I could just fly in and get one. 

[john90]

I've never had any time with a fresh un-rebuilt New York Steinway. They are all Hamburg ones over here. So an NY Steinway grand, especially a new D, is a bit of a mythical beast to us.

[keys60]

Played a Hamburg O not too long ago at a local college. The action was superb. Real meaty and fast. The piano is kind of neglected. Broke my heart.

[noambenhamou]

oh, i'm not saving a single $ by going to the factory. I just want a SELECTION to choose from D's since all are different. The transaction is still going through my Steinway dealer here in Portland, OR.
I started about 3 months ago with  a new almost 7 foot Bechstein which sounded too harsh. It was not a voicing issue, it just sounded like sh*t in my very live large open apartment. It just hurt my ears when I played, even when played quitetly. The techs (many of them) all blamed my acoustics in my home. So After battling with the Bechstein for about 2 months I had a "hunch": A steinway would still sound good nomatter how "bad" or live the acoustics is.
So I went to the Steinway dealer and told them about my bechstein and my "hunch" about the steinways. (I always loved steinways much better than any other pianos). They agreed to put a B in my house for a couple of weeks. Instantly I could tell the difference. I can play soft, and loud, and it didn't hurt my ears. It produced such a beautiful sound. My girlfriend actually now liked hearing me play. So I bought the new B.
I didn't like the B's polish of the black keys and they were too high. Still, it was an amazing piano. Plus I wanted the longer keys for more control. So I went to the dealer again told him I want a D and that I want many D's to choose from, that's why they made me an appointement at the factory. In the meanwhile, they put a loander 1993 D in my aparment today and took back the B. OMG!!!!! Even this neglected D in desperate need of regulating and voicing is just a totally different ballgame than the B! I can play WAY WAY softer than the B. I was so afraid that the D would be too big for a living room and I read in forums that it is very impractical to have a D at home. BULLSHIT! I can easily make that D whisper, and on FF it doesn't sound loud, it just sounds like volume and color.

So the conclusion. Bechstein - not even close to steinway. And the D's are like the masters of all Steinways. Everything else is just a compromise to the D. Now I can really see why they put the D in Noah's ark in that mercedes commercial.

[keys60]

Thank you noam....for your last post. I just tried to help another poster who was worried about the tone of his Yamaha C3 and described how Steinway likes to vary there voicing to the consumer and he can get his Yammie voiced. I will refer him to your most excellent post.

[noambenhamou]

no problem keys60
Yeah - that D just sounds amazing and definatley not too loud and I have very sensetive neighbors downstairs. The B was louder nd was not able to acheive the same ppp. not even close. And like I said, when played F - FFF, it doesn't hurt the ears like the B or worse  - the Beckstein. It just sounds beautiful and full of color.

PS - another thing that makes me a die hard D fan is that this particular 1993 D that I have here temporarily is clearly and obviously BRIGHT. The hammers on the right hand registrar are clearly VERY compacted which makes trills and fast La Campanella peices up there very fun, clear, and fast.

D is the only way to go. Mortgage your house, get a 2nd job, send your children to a plantation in the South. It's worth every penny, even the markup for the "name". It's just plain and simple worth it.

The almost 20 year old D which is beat up is clearly superior to a brand new B, hands down, no question.