Kawai K25 Tuning

[westman]

I have a Kawai K25 purchased new in March 04. Overall I am pleased, but am having some tuning problems with several keys. Mostly 3D#, 3E, and 3F# (middle C being 2C). The problem is these strings for these notes seem to have an inerent "buzz" even when other strings in the unison are muted, and there is nothing obviously wrong, like a piece of paper stuck on the string or something like that. I haven't had my tuner back yet, since he recommended waiting about 6 months for the piano to get broken in. I have a set of tuning tools and have successfully tuned other keys that have gotten off pitch. But these simply refuse to cooperate. On several other keys, I can set the tune, but even if I tune them a little high (allowing them to "drift" back into tune) they will be out of tune (flat) again within an hour (or less if I'm playing Liszt  )

The 3F# sounds lousy no matter what I do. I think that's because that middle string just won't stay put when tuning the unison, so by the time you tune one string, the middle has changed, so the third string is now off.

So I think I may have an issue with some tuning pegs being a little loose. But its the buzzing strings that are most annoying.

Anyone run into this before? Suggestions?

[Axtremus]

Get the professional tuner/technician in.

The "six month" recommendation is just a general guideline. Some need it sooner, some can wait longer -- every home's environment is different, temperature and humidity fluctuation -- they all differ from home to home and can affect your tuning.

Furthermore, unless you really know what you're doing, I would suggest not tuning your own piano lightly. If you really must tune a few unisons every now and then, at least get the tuner/technician to give you a few pointers first.

Good luck.

[westman]

I hear you. Actually the last time my tech was here he showed me a few tricks, taking some strings out of tune and letting met put them back so I could get the feel of using the tuning hammer. I've been real careful, realizing I know just enough to be dangerous  

My long term goal is to become a tech myself.

[shusbands]

HI. It actually sounds like you might have a string levelling problem.......many of the buzzes and zings that can be heard in pianos ( including the K25 ) are caused by uneven string levels.

The hammer strikes 3 the strings unevenly because one or more of the strings may be sitting slightly higher or lower than the others. You can see if this is the case by pushing the hammer forwards until it just touches the strings - then pluck the strings individually with your fingernail. Each string should sound the same.

If one of them rings longer than the others, it means that string is not being damped the same as the others, and that means the strings are not level. If this is the case, ask your technician to level the strings and maybe even look at the hammer to make sure the hammer felt is even.

Good luck!

Simon
www.pianotech.biz

[westman]

Thanks for the tip. I checked it out, but didn't notice anything different from other notes that aren't a problem. Of course this doesn't mean a real pro wouldn't get a different result  .

I did try something else: I tuned the problem C# down to a C and the buzz went away. It comes back when I tune it back up. I examined the hitch pin and bridge but didn't see anything obviously wrong. All felts look OK The screws holding the pressure bar are all very tight, and I don't see anyplace where the strings are touching anything they obviously shouldn't be. So I guess I'll have to get my tech out here to have a look.

[lucky1]

westman --
We have our sights set on a new K-25 for our first piano.  It seems to be a lot of piano for the money ($4900).  Have you been pleased with the performance of yours?  Any regrets?     Your perspective is appreciated.   Thanks,  Tim

[Axtremus]

I did try something else: I tuned the problem C# down to a C and the buzz went away. It comes back when I tune it back up. I examined the hitch pin and bridge but didn't see anything obviously wrong. All felts look OK The screws holding the pressure bar are all very tight, and I don't see anyplace where the strings are touching anything they obviously shouldn't be. So I guess I'll have to get my tech out here to have a look.

Could be something else (perhaps the piano's cabinet, perhaps some other things you have near the piano) that vibrates sympathetically with the C# pitch. It's not uncommon for people to think their piano us buzzing when in reality it's something else in the room that's vibrating when certain notes are played to create the buzz. Granted this thread was started in last August, but it would be interesting to see how it got resolved.

Lucky1/Tim -- Good luck to you on your piano purchase.

[lucky1]

Axtremus--
We are looking at the Kawai K-60 and K-80 in addition to the K-25 because they have the larger soundboard, but also because they have aggraffes.  Are aggraffes something we should be considering?  Will not having them make it more difficult to keep the piano in tune over the years?    Tim

[westman]

Lucky1 - Honestly I would have difficulty recommending the K25 at this point. Although the overall tone is excellent, outside of the particular problem with the C# previously discussed, I have had some issues with the sustain pedal system that required a visit from a tech to fix (covered by warranty). I also think, based on my experience with 2 K25s, that there are issues with the tone of the keys immediately around the "treble break". That is the point at which the one of the components of the harp projects upward through the bridge (what connects the strings to the sound board). This occurs at the E/F# above high C.

Aggraffes should improve the tonal quality and should not make the piano more difficult to tune.

The trick to buying the piano I think is to try to find a similar model that has been in use for a while. Then you can get an idea what the new one will sound like after it is broken in. Many new pianos don't really get "stable" in tone for at least 6 months.

[westman]

Axtremus, please see the following thread:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,6895.0.html

for a detailed reponse to your comment.

[Axtremus]

westman,

Thanks for the update. Sorry to hear that the issue hasn't been resovled to you satisfaction.

----------------------------------

Lucky1,

Here's how I look at K-25, K-50, K-60, and K-80:

K-25 -- your baseline, 48" tall. Basically a good piano that works.

K-50 -- slightly bigger plus duplex scaling ("supposedly" better sound), sturdier built (one backpost more than the K-25, you can check the back of the piano). NEOTEX key surface to more closely emulate the feel of ivory on the keys.

K-60 -- significantly bigger, 52" tall. One backpost more than K-50, so it's sturdier too. Larger soundboard, longer strings, agragges, etc., ("supposed" to give you even better sound). Also, it's 2.5 inches DEEPER than the K-50, with longer keys inside, this is "supposed" to give you better control in the action, better touch.

K-80 -- very similar to K-60 on the inside, but has as addition the true Sostenuto pedal (middle pedal lets you sustain specific notes selectively, not all notes at once like th sustain pedal), better furniture (e.g., "Soft Fall" keyboard cover won't slam down on your fingers, more eleborate music desk as opposed to the small wooden strip screwed to the keyboard cover of other uprights).

You can read up on the specifications at:
https://kawaius.com/kseries_elements.htm
and
https://kawaius.com/kseriesmain.htm

Notice I put quotes around "supposedly" or "supposed to" when I wrote about certain features meant to give you better sound or better control or better touch -- that's because "better sound" and "better touch" are very subjective. The manufacturers put those extra feature in because they believe those extras will give you better performance. But sound and touch being such subjective criteria, you need not agree with the manufacturer. You have to hear the pianos and play the pianos for yourself before you judge which has the better sound or better touch to you.

My personal opinion is that I think there is a real boost, musically, going from K-25 to K50, and from going from K-50 to K-60. I played them, and I felt the K-50 gave me better sound and the K-60 gave me better control and yet even better sound. I do not feel the K-80's "true sostenuto" pedal is that big a deal -- because very few pieces need sostenuto, and most pianists and piano students, as they improve their skills and play increasingly advanced pieces, will need the better control in the action afforded by a grand piano before they need the sostenuto mechanism. So unless I really need the sostenuto and has space constraint that I cannot fit a grand piano, I see no reason to upgrade to the K-80. (BUT, if there are small kids running around the house, then I think the "Soft Fall" keyboard cover would be worth considering if only to prevent little kids getting their finger banged by the keyboard cover. However, historically, many kids survived having a piano in the house without the "soft close" mechanism and they grow up just fine. So the lack of "soft close" is really not that big a deal. )

Ultimately, you have to play the pianos and see/decide for yourself if each succssive "upgrade" is worth the extra money asked. There is nothing that can subsitute for having first-hand experience playing the pianos for yourself. If you're looking for a basic, functional piano for you to enjoy casual playing or for your kids to take lessons on, frankly, I think the K-25 will work just fine.

Good luck.

[iumonito]

westman --
We have our sights set on a new K-25 for our first piano.  It seems to be a lot of piano for the money ($4900).  Have you been pleased with the performance of yours?  Any regrets?     Your perspective is appreciated.   Thanks,  Tim

Sorry to jump in, but $4900 for a low quality upright sounds like a lot of money for a crappy piano.  I suggest you look at Breitman (made by Bluthner) as a reference.   With very little more money you can get a very good Chinese baby grand.

[Axtremus]

Sorry to jump in, but $4900 for a low quality upright sounds like a lot of money for a crappy piano.  I suggest you look at Breitman (made by Bluthner) as a reference. With very little more money you can get a very good Chinese baby grand.

iumonito,

1. Not trying to argue with you, and I respect your right to your own opinion, but I am curious: On what bases do you conclude that the upright is "low quality" and "crappy"?

2. I assume you have played Breitman uprights. What do you think of it, musically or otherwise?

3. How sure are you that Breitman is "made by Blüthner" ? (Eventhough I ask this question, I would encourage who ever considering Breitman or any other piano to do so on the piano's own merit, by playing/listening to the piano himself/herself, not going by who made the piano where.)

Thanks.

[iumonito]

Ax, most delighted to engage, and feel free to argue.  I wrote recently that 2 + 2 = 6 or 5 or 4 and got a "What?"  Of course, in matters of art there are no wrong answers.

I have played a variety of Kawai pianos and none of their uprights have ever given me a good impression.  I perceive these pianos to be entry level, and I like my entry level through another door (that is, Chinese baby grand).

I actually have not played Breitmans, although I believe them to be available for less than $4,900; hence my recommendation to use them as a reference.  Naturally, i may be sorely mistaken about that.

You may read about Bluthner's involvement in the Breitman pianos at Bluthner's websites.  Here is the link to the American one: https://www.bluthnerpiano.com/

Or more specifically here:  https://www.bluthnerpiano.com/breitmann.html

iumonito,

1. Not trying to argue with you, and I respect your right to your own opinion, but I am curious: On what bases do you conclude that the upright is "low quality" and "crappy"?

2. I assume you have played Breitman uprights. What do you think of it, musically or otherwise?

3. How sure are you that Breitman is "made by Blüthner" ? (Eventhough I ask this question, I would encourage who ever considering Breitman or any other piano to do so on the piano's own merit, by playing/listening to the piano himself/herself, not going by who made the piano where.)

Thanks.

[lucky1]

Axtremus—Thanks for the advice on the Kawai’s.  Your time is appreciated.

westman –I didn’t intend to highjack your thread. I am sorry about your experiences with the K-25 and hope they turn around.  Your comments have helped me to be more cautious as we look. 

As far as iumonito is concerned, I don’t give comments like his a second thought.  Anyway, we don’t want a grand or baby grand.

After brushing up on Larry Fine’s Piano Book, we went looking again today and discovered Petrof.  What I was pleased with was that even the smaller Petrof models appear to have the construction features of the larger, more expensive Petrof models --and the Kawai K-60/K-80.  For example, the Petrof model P118G1  (46.25”)  has the aggraffes that the only the K-60 and K-80 have.  I was impressed with the piano overall and more importantly, preferred the tonal qualities and action over the Kawai and the Knabe.

Any insight/advise/opinion regarding the Petrof?

Additional thoughts:  This is the first time we have seriously sought a piano.  What I have found fascinating is that the salesman today (as the one yesterday) immediately gravitated to the Kawai, pointing out the usual “ABS” and that “Kawai’s are found in almost every school . . .”     In addition, four out of the six K-25’s had “sold” signs on them and used models appear to move very quickly. 

This is not meant as a criticism of Kawai’s, but  I am wondering if Americans are assuming the Japanese origin equates to superior quality and are walking right by piano’s (like the Petrof) that are good products.  That, or the margins on Kawai’s are better.?  My assumption at this point is that the higher-end Kawi’s are competitive, but the lower-end models have had some design compromises in order to compete in the lower-end market.  ??

Turn me around if you think I am way off.  Thanks.

[iumonito]

Well, I don't mean to get defensive, but my only intention was giving you some information so that you don't waste $4,900 when there are superior options for similar money.  You are free to ignore me.

Certainly, Petroff is much better a choice.

But the question of upright vs. baby grand (which probably should be had elsewhere) is a good one.  Price is not far off, space is not that far off, and an upright is not really a piano.  (ignore, ignore)

Best of lucks,

[iumonito]

Kawai, btw, is Korean.
Westman, good luck tuning.  You may also ask your technician whether this could be a voicing problem.  Maybe the hammer is a little harder than its neighbors and excites something funny when the string is tense at pitch.

[Axtremus]

Sigh... Kawai is a Japanese brand, and the K-series pianos are made in Japan. Nothing wrong with Korean pianos... but "Korean" just doesn't describe Kawai anyway you slice it.

In anycase, iomunito, thank you for your candid response.

Now, on to Petrof.

I am not as familiar with Petrof upright, so I cannot make any meaningful comparison. (For what it's worth, I like the tone of the Petrof models II, III, and IV grand pianos I played. )

I wouldn't be too concerned about agraffe vs. no agraffe, if that's the sound you like, then that is what I think you should go with. The agraffe, ABS, and all the other features the salespeople like to call out are just that, features. Usually, the lesser known a brand, the more "features" are touted as selling points. Features that do not contribute to the sound and/or the touch you like are features wasted as far as you the consumer is concerned. Go with the sound and touch of the piano as a whole instead of comparing features.

I would also ignore the "sold" signs and ignore the statistics of which schools bought how many pianos of what brand names. Schools choose pianos for their own reasons, which can be very different from individual consumer's.

If you find Petrof's tonal qualities more appealing, certainly explore it some more and don't let its lack of name-recognition hold you back.

Good luck.

[chickering9]

HI. It actually sounds like you might have a string levelling problem...

String leveling would be my first looksee.  Seating of the strings at the bridge pins in the section would be my next thing to check.  That second issue is often due to poor string leveling in the first place, but strings riding up bridge pins is a good way to generate what typically gets called "buzzing".   Your tech should be able to quickly level those strings and seat them at the bridge pins.  I would bet that'd solve your problem.

[westman]

lucky1 - No problemo, anything that contributes to the knowledge base is welcomed

chickering9 - Thanks for your advice. I checked the strings at the bridge pins, and see nothing obvious. Maybe an experienced tech would see something there, but they look just like all the other strings.

 I checked the string leveling and again saw nothing significant. So I am leaning towards the hammer. I guess I just have a tendency to pound on that key more than the others. Its probably due to HungRap 2, the Friska section hits that key pretty heavily.

[JETDOCTOR]

I purchased a new mahogany polish K-25 and had my middle C and the four notes to the left buzz and the keyboard cover would not close properly.  After 2 repair calls they replaced the piano with a new K-25 that did the same thing only this one sounded muddy. Kawai Rep. Andrew Thomas told me "All K-25's buzz and the fix is to load the strings with felt."
I have since paid an additional $225 to re-deliver the original piano. Even though this piano buzzes' it sounds remarkably better than its replacement.
      I bought this piano because the salesman told me Kawai had the same customer service that Yamaha does.  I have found Kawai's customer service to be cold and unreceptive. I am filing a report with the Michigan Atty Gen quoting Mr. Andrew Thomas.
I suggest other K-25 owners do the same...perhaps a class action lawsuit can be initiated.

[westman]

That is interesting. I wonder what he meant by "loading the strings up with felt"? I'm thinking about going back to the dealer and seeking a permanent resolution, i.e. a different make of piano. To me it is not acceptable for a new, fairly expensive piano to consistently have the same problems. I played a 70 year old grand that was outrageously out of tune and had numerous broken strings and it actually sounded better in some respects than mine because the tone was consistent, even if it was out of tune. Personally I think some of the problems are in the hammers.
I solved some buzzing problems by adding felt discs to "contact points" where the big front upper and lower panels touch the main body of the piano. I also added some to the keyboard enclosure by removing it and placing them where the cover also contacts the piano body.
I think I previously mentioned pedal noises as well that are consistent with both K25s I have had.
Please keep up us posted on any new details.

[Michele Felice]

Westman--

You really need to get a good technician from your dealer (or elsewhere) to help solve your problems. It takes experience to judge (it is not a simple matter of looking) whether strings are leveled properly, whether the hammer is striking at the proper angle, whether the strings are seated properly at the bridge pins, whether the angle is proper from the agraffe or other string termination to the speaking length of the string or the nonspeaking length, whether there are flaws in the shape of the string terminations, and whether the nonspeaking length of the string needs to be dampened with a strip of felt. On top of this, you can't really tell what the tonal problems of any notes might be unless the unisons are tuned very accurately, and the pins set and the strings settled so that the unisons don't immediately start going out of tune. The apparently simple tasks of piano tuning are really far more complex than they seem; that's why one needs to tune dozens of pianos before one has any skill at all in making a string stay in tune. Get some help from a good technician, preferably a Registered Piano Technican member of the Piano Technicians Guild, who has to demonstrate at least minimal skills to become registered.

[westman]

Thanks for your input. I can tell you that there are issues with the pins because certain notes absolutely will not stay in tune for more than a few minutes. You can tune them sharp and play the note hard and listen to it drift down lower and lower until it passes the "tuned" point and then goes slightly flat. Numerous trials and retunes have demonstrated that these notes are problematic. The first technician I had was of the opinion that there was nothing wrong with the tuning pins or strings, but by that evening the notes were out of tune again. The amount of "out of tune" we are talking here is very small, less than 1 beat, enough to make the unisons soud twangy when played. There is a clear difference between these problem notes on the piano and those that, once the tune is set, stay in tune for long periods of time. I believe the nonspeaking length of the string may be in need of further dampening.

Visual observation of the strings as they pass the bridge pins does not indicate a problem. Also the strings on the problem notes appear as level as ones that sound ok. I agree that an experienced technician has more knowledge than I, but I believe that if I can consistently tune the entire piano and it sounds great except for the same five notes then the tuning itself is not the problem. Additionally I have seen the same thing on the same notes for two different K-25s.

Two notes in particular (high C# and D#) sound extremely metallic and tinny. Whereas when the piano was brand new they sounded fine. So maybe somehow the process by which the hammers are worn in is a problem on those notes.

My next move is to have a different tech look at the piano, preferably one not affiliated with the dealer.