beginner's muscle development

[jeff]

bernhard, you have mentioned a few times that in the beginning certain muscles necessary for piano-playing are atrophied from not being used, and need to be exercised and developed. which muscles are these, and what are the best ways to develop them?

[monk]

That's not true.

All muscles have the necessary strength for piano playing from the beginning on!

Learning to play the piano is just a matter of programming the nervous system properly so that the energy is directed exactly to the right muscles and so that "parasitary", unnecessary movements (=muscle contractions) become less.

Example: If you say to a non-pianist: "Just move your 4th finger up and down without moving the other fingers!" then he will have much difficulties, because his brain has not been trained to use his arm and hand muscles in such a differentiated way. But a pianist will be able to do so.

The only case when one has the feeling that muscles have to be developed is when he plays with a wrong technique. And it's very easy to play with wrong technique on the piano! On the trumpet, you will most likely hear it, but on the piano the poor beginner says: "So what? The notes are there!"

If a beginner has difficulties to press the keys and has difficulties to get a full tone and fluency, the remedy #1 is to show him how to use the arm weight. Piano playing in fact is easy because gravity is our best friend

Best Wishes,
Monk

[monk]

One thing I have to add:

Strenght increases also very much when the flexibility, suppleness and balance of the whole body is increased!

Many people, when they sit in front of a piano and are supposed to play, just grow stiff, and the energy can't flow freely.

Best Wishes,
Monk

[bernhard]

To list all the muscles used in the full range of piano playing I would need to list all the muscles in the body (As Richter once said “ I played that note with my big toe!”)

And since Monk disagrees, perhaps a more useful question is, “what muscles are those that are atrophied in the normal person, and that need to be developed for piano playing?”

First let me say that although I believe Monk is wrong when he says that all muscles have the necessary strength to start with (I will get there in a moment), he is absolutely right in everything else he says. Ultimately it is not a matter of strength, but of co-ordination. However even for co-ordination you will need a minimum of muscle development. Muscle takes 3 – 6 months to grow. After that all the work becomes nervous and ceases to be muscular. The best way to develop these muscles is simply by playing (correctly) the piano.

Secondly, since the advent of the computer and its widespread use, many of the muscles that were once atrophied are no more simply because of typing in a computer keyboard.

Thirdly have a look here just for the muscles in the hand and forearm (you use far more muscles than these, but these are the ones most likely to be atrophied in the normal person since you do not use them regularly enough as we will see later.):

Muscles in the hand:

There are three main groups of muscles in the hand: The thumb muscles (radial) the little finger muscles (Ulnar muscles) and the palm muscles (which occupy the spaces between the bones – and therefore called interosseus – and the lumbricales muscles). All these muscles are in the hand, not in the fingers – which only have tendons).

Radial (thumb) muscles:

1.      Abductor Pollicis
2.      Opponens Pollicis (Flexor Ossis metacarpi)
3.      Flexor Brevis Pollicis
4.      Adductor Pollicis

Ulnar (little finger) muscles:

1.      Palmaris brevis
2.      Abductor Minimi Digiti
3.      Flexor brevis minimi digiti
4.      Opponens Minimi digiti (Flexor Ossis metacarpi)

Palm (middle of the hand) muscles:

1.      Lumbricales (there are 4 lumbricalis muscles)
2.      Interossei palmares (there are 3 of these, on top of the metacarpal bones). These muscles adduct (move towards) the fingers towards the middle finger.
3.      Interossei dorsalis (there are 4 of those, in between the bones – metacarpi – of the hand: Abductor indicis) these muscles abduct (move away) the fingers from the middle finger.

Both palmares and dorsalis interossei can help flex the fingers if they are already flexed.

These muscles are so little used in the average person that they need to be developed and strengthened. Anatomical fact: Size and number of lumbrical muscles vary from person to person. Some people do not even have lumbrical muscles. If so, a career as a piano super-virtuoso is out of question. (But you can still play the piano).

Muscles of the forearm.

Anterior brachial region:

Superficial layer.
1.      Pronator radii teres
2.      Flexor carpi radialis
3.      Palmaris longus
4.      Flexor carpi ulnaris
5.      Flexor sublimis digitorum

Deep layer.
1.      Flexor profundus digitorum.
2.      Flexor longus pollicis
3.      Pronatur quadratus

Radial region..
1.      Supinator longus
2.      Extensor carpi radialis longior
3.      Extensor carpi radialis brevior

Posterior brachial region.
1.      Extensor communis digitorum
2.      Extensor minimi digiti
3.      Extensor carpis ulnari
4.      Anconeus

Deep layer.
1.      Supinator brevis
2.      Extensor ossis metacarpi pollicis
3.      Extensor primi internodi pollicis
4.      Extensor secundi internodi pollicis
5.      Extensor indicis.

Understand this, because there are deep consequences for how you are going to go about it: We cannot consciously move any particular muscle. All we can do is to will a particular motion of the hand. Therefore, in order to have a specific muscle to contract, one must discover which peculiar movement of the hand will use that and only that muscle.

As babies and toddlers we do not learn how to contract muscles, we learn how to move and most of the time we do not really care which muscles we are using. So it is perfectly possible for two different persons to achieve a certain complex motion by using completely different sets of muscles. Once the habit is ingrained, and the motion becomes usual, the muscles not used will atrophy, while the muscles in use will be strong and developed. So two different persons performing the same motions may have different sets of muscles atrophied and developed.

Have you ever tried eating with chopsticks? People who have been eating with forks and knives all their lives do not have the muscles necessary to eat with chopsticks fully developed simply because they are not used in their daily lives. The way to develop them is to eat with chopsticks regularly. The problem is, because their “fork muscles” are well developed; they tend to use those muscles (and co-ordinations) even though they are clearly inappropriate. You can see them at Chinese and Japanese restaurants. They are eating with chopsticks, as if it was their native eating implements. They think they have mastered it – and to a certain extent they manage to get the food to their mouths. But to an expert chopstick holder, they are doing it all wrong. They hold the chopsticks to near the middle, not at the extremity. The chopsticks are not in the same plane and therefore they frequently cross over each other. They hold them parallel and too close together, which stops them from actually being able to pick pieces of food. So for some three months they have to get expert tuition, someone who knows and can actually show them the motions and the way to hold the chopsticks, and they must persist on them no matter how clumsy they may feel, because it is from repeating the appropriate motions that he correct muscles will grow. Then after this phase, comes nerve control and co-ordination (in fact they will be there from the beginning, but it is only after the muscle is developed enough to respond that they can be fully operational).

More often than not, the set of muscles you use for a certain motion will not be indifferent: There will always be a configuration that is more efficient for a specific motion. This ultimately explains why some people excel at certain motions while others never rise above the mediocre. Excelling people are using best muscle configurations and co-ordinations, having arrived there either by chance or by careful guidance from those in the know.

Just to give you an example (there are plenty more), in order to play an octave (if you have small hands),or anything bigger than a tenth (if you have big hands) you will need to use the interossei muscles in the hand. A person who does not need to use this movement (and most people don’t) will have these muscles atrophied from lack of use, since most normal daily activities do not require the use of these muscles. They will need to gradually work them up to a point where they can play octaves/tenths. If you are a beginner, or if you have not played many octaves before, to jump straight into some piece/study that requires extensive use of octaves is to court injury. You can usually spot pianists by looking at the outside edge of their hands just below the fifth finger. The palm there is thicker than a non-pianist. You can see it in videos of , for instance, Alicia de La Rocha, who had very small hands, and therefore a very developed interosseus.

As you can see, the best way to learn/teach this stuff  is not by reading/writing about it. You need a hands on approach. Either you find someone knowledgeable to show you and to make sure you are not doing the wrong thing (surprisingly easy to go wrong, even with someone knowledgeable watching over you) or you embark on program of systematic and careful experimentation (this is basically what super-slow practice – 5 seconds on each key – is all about: trying to isolate muscles through specific motion).

In any case, here are the three commandments:

1.      Do not make unnecessary movements or muscle contractions.
2.      Do the necessary movements as smoothly as possible.
3.      If you have a choice, always use the strongest muscles that will perform the motion.

I suggest you get a book of Anatomy (or have a look at some of the medical anatomical sites in the net. Some even have animations showing which muscle does which movement. Here are some:
https://www.meddean.luc.edu/lumen/MedEd/GrossAnatomy/dissector/mml/mmlregn.htm

https://www.eatonhand.com/hom/hom033.htm


https://moon.ouhsc.edu/gsharp/namics/hand.htm#muscles).

Also have a look at posts from xvimbi and Robert Henry. They often talk about this subject and offer valuable advice.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Egghead]

To list all the muscles used in the full range of piano playing I would need to list all the muscles in the body (As Richter once said “ I played that note with my big toe!”)

goodnessgraciousme. you really do do your homework. Have you memorized all this as well?  
Nice www-links. piccies in https://www.meddean.luc.edu/lumen/MedEd/GrossAnatomy/dissector/mml/mmlreg n.htm are simple enough for me.

Long post though. I will have to read it all again to understand what it means. Very simplified: get a teacher and follow the three commandments?
(Or become a scientist and make sure you live long enough to see the results...)

Impressed,
Egghead

[bernhard]

goodnessgraciousme. you really do do your homework. Have you memorized all this as well?  

I have an elephant's memory.

I actually run memory seminars for elephants.

[DrEvil-]

You are da man Bernhard!

I have a question about my hands: When most people (I think, it's too late here to bother my family about) make a fist they can extend their 4th finger up so that there is a 180 degree angle from the knuckle through the finger, mine only comes up so that it's about even with my other fingers.

What muscles am I lacking here?

[Egghead]

I have an elephant's memory.

I actually run memory seminars for elephants.

0) tell us more about that elephant, whose memory you now possess.
1) are your two statements causally related? Which came first, the elephants or the memory?
2) where do you get the elephants from?


BTW: you didn't actually answer EITHER of my two v. serious questions   they were:
essence of your post=

  "Very simplified: get a teacher and follow the three commandments"

and

Have you memorized all this as well?

 
I ask, because I believe memorization becomes easy with understanding (and difficult without).  

Egghead

[xvimbi]

Nobody memorizes stuff like that in that detail, unless they specialize in that discipline. If you look around the forum, you'll see the same, or similar, lengthy answers given to the same, or similar, questions. It's called recycling, and it's the way to handle the same, or similar, questions.

[bernhard]

You are da man Bernhard!

I have a question about my hands: When most people (I think, it's too late here to bother my family about) make a fist they can extend their 4th finger up so that there is a 180 degree angle from the knuckle through the finger, mine only comes up so that it's about even with my other fingers.

What muscles am I lacking here?

None whatsoever.

This is an excellent question that allows me to expand on what I said before and clear up many points.

Figers 2-3-4-5 have three phalanxes (the bones inside the fingers): the nail one, the middle one and the knuckle one.

Start with your hand straight, so that your fingers are on a line with the back of your hand.

Now bend your fingers (2345) at the knuckle joint (ignore the thumb for the moment).

This flexing of the fingers can be done in three ways:

1.      By the action of the lumbricales. These are situtated in the palm of your hand. You touch the palm of your hand with your LH fingers as you do the flexing at the knuckle joint in the RH, you should be able to feel them contracting (look at a picture of the muscles in the hand to better locate the lumbricales). The lumbricales are attached to the knuckle phalanx, but they are a small, weak, usually undeveloped muscle (unless you happen to practise karate or piano)

2.      You can also do the same movement by using the flexors of the nail and middle phalanx. These are located in underside of the forearm. If you put your left hand under your forearm, you can feel them sliding and thickening as you flex the nail and middle phalanx. To extend these two phalanxes, you use the extensors at the topside of the forearm. So now comes the really interesting part. If you keep your fingers straight by using the extensors in the forearm (their tendons go all the way to the fingers), and at the same time you try to flex the nail and middle phalanxes (that is, one muscle is working against the other), you will flex the knuckle phalanx without using the lumbricales at all.  It is difficult to describe this in writing, but I trust you understand what I am saying. You can experiment by using your other hand to feel the muscles involved both in the palm and in the forearm. See if you can do the movement by using only the lumbricales, and then try to use the movement by using only the flexors/extensors in the forearm. If let your nail and middle phalanxes relaxed, you will have to use the lumbricales, since the flexors will have nothing to work against. If you extend the nail and middle phalanxes by using the extensors, you will be able to bring down the knuckle phalanx in this indirect way.

3.      You can do the movement by a combination of lumbricales and flexor/extensor action, the contribution of each muscle varying form person to person.

What is the point I am trying to make? Most people who do not practise the piano (correctly) or the martial arts (correctly) or any other similarly weird activity will not have the lumbricales sufficiently developed to be able to bend the fingers at the knuckle only with the lumbricales. Typically they will need the help of the forearm muscles, or even worse, they will only use the forearm muscles. In other words, they will develop a set of co-ordinations that will make the lumbricales weaker and weaker. Yet, that set of co-ordinations will work fine for most purposes. However, that same set of co-ordinations using the forearm muscles, mean that you are using two groups of muscles against each other, Which is called “co-contraction”. Co-contraction is a big no no in any physical activity that demands exquisite muscle control for the obvious reason that you have enough trouble with the activity in question without having to fight your own muscles.  But without a lumbricales strong enough to bend those fingers, and without developing the appropriate set of co-ordinations that will allow you to do just that, you will keep using the forearm muscles, and your piano playing will never progress beyond the mediocre.

How do you develop the lumbricales? By doing the above movement a couple of minutes a day consciously striving to do the movement with the lumbricales and not with the flexors/extensors. Unfortunately as I said, you cannot isolate muscles by will, you can only will a movement that uses the required muscles. The secret here is to keep the first two phalanxes bent so that the flexors do not have a grip. Have you seen people play the harp? That is the sort of movement that you must will in order to engage only the lumbricales.

Now for your specific question.  The muscles that extend the fingers are in the forearm and are the several extensor muscles whose tendons extend all the way to the fingers.

The movement you describe (having the 4th finger at 180 degrees to a fist) is pretty much impossible and I am very surprised that you think most people can do it. I never met anyone who could (I certainly cannot) and I often use it to demonstrate my next paragraph.

If you look at a picture of the muscles and tendons on the back of the hand, you will see that the extensor tendon that lifts the fourth finger is tied by two small tendinous “slips” to the tendons of either side: the ones who lift the 3rd and 5th finger (they all arise from a single muscle in the forearm: the extensor communis digitorum). It is this that makes the 4th finger weaker and dependent for its movements on the 3rd and 5th finger. Therefore is physically impossible to have an “independent” 4th finger.  This has several important consequences for piano practice.

1.      Hanon is wrong when he promises you complete finger independence (and any other exercise manual who promises this is wrong as well). You might as well try to fly by flapping your arms if you have time to waste.

2.      This does not mean that you should not exercise the 4th finger, but the anatomical knowledge just disclosed will guide you on the proper way to do so. In particular, you should never try to exercise the 4th finger with the 3rd and 5th fingers held down (Even Chang with whom I mostly agree suggests this wrong approach in his book).

The correct way to exercise the 4th finger is this: hold your hand in front of you. Place the tips of the 2nd and 3rd finger on the tip of the thumb, keeping the phalanxes flexed (making a circle). Don’t press the tips, just touch them. Now move the  the 4th finger back and forth, letting the 5th finger to swing freely. Keep the 4th and 5th fingers in a normal, relaxed curved position (neither straight nor curled), since you want to move from the knuckle. This will guarantee that you are moving the fingers with the lumbricales (on the palm of the hand) rather then the extensors (at the back of the forearm/hand). Straighten the fingers a bit and you should feel the movement switch muscles: as you straighten the fingers, the extensors start to move the fingers 4 and 5.

3.      From all I said up to this point comes perhaps the most important consequence: There is no real relaxation in piano playing (if you relax you end up on the floor) Instead you are constantly refreshing a groups of muscles by having the work being done by a different set of muscles. Just like you should swap hands when doing hands separate practice in order to maintain one hand always refreshed, you should also swap muscles and in this way you can play demanding passage without ever getting tiredness.

However keep in mind that the lumbricales are very small compared with the extensors. Therefore they are particularly appropriate for delicate, pp work, while the extensors should be used for ff rough work. It is the switching back and forth between muscles that makes for easy, effortless piano playing. However this happens too fast to be under conscious control. You must investigate this issue, and then you must practise it until you can do the switching unconsciously.

All in all you are looking here at 8 – 10 months of systematic practice (which includes the time for the muscles to develop). This is where extremely slow practice really comes on its own. Extremely slow practice is not for developing “touch”, or “tone”, or to ingrain movements as people who have no idea what they are talking about – and are therefore impressed by folklore (Rachmaninoff did it!) - like to believe. Extremely slow practice is for identifying and isolating the several muscles involved and to learn how to do the same motion with different muscles and how to switch between muscles and when this is appropriate. And later on, ESP will also be fundamental for nerve control.

So, get Gray’s Anatomy and go investigate!

And always remember this most important principle:

!A person who persists in believing what is not true or disbelieving what is true can waste a lifetime of effort on something that is without hope of success
(E. Jayne)

I hope this helps.

Best wishes,
Bernhard

[bernhard]

BTW: you didn't actually answer EITHER of my two v. serious questions   they were:
essence of your post=
and
 
I ask, because I believe memorization becomes easy with understanding (and difficult without).  

Egghead

Er... I didn;t realise they were serious questions.

1. Yes, that was the essence of my post.

2. Understanding is completley unnecessary for memory. The reason is simple. Our understanding of anything is always wrong. (Look at history).

What is really important for memory is association. What you call understanding - and which you think is helpful - I would call a system of association.  It is not the most efficient system though.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

Nobody memorizes stuff like that in that detail, unless they specialize in that discipline. If you look around the forum, you'll see the same, or similar, lengthy answers given to the same, or similar, questions. It's called recycling, and it's the way to handle the same, or similar, questions.

Have faith! You will end up an old cynical...

[Egghead]

Er... I didn;t realise they were serious questions.

1. Yes, that was the essence of my post.

2. Understanding is completley unnecessary for memory. The reason is simple. Our understanding of anything is always wrong. (Look at history).

What is really important for memory is association. What you call understanding - and which you think is helpful - I would call a system of association.  It is not the most efficient system though.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

Hi Bernhard,

who will ever know about seriousness.

Ok, the essence question was mostly serious, and I am glad I understood you correctly, thanks for the answer!

The question "Have you memorized all this as well?" remains. It was indeed the humorous formulation of a serious question:
"Do you know all this by heart now as well?". I look forward to your answer to this question!

I thought you might have answered: "no, i did not need to memorize, as by the time I looked all this up and thought about it, I knew it all."

re: 2. - I did not claim that understanding is necessary for memory. I claimed that if you understand (or are able to associate with your existing knowledge) then you also know.

Hey, and what about my REALLY REALLY serious elephant questions? Always wanted to know what elephants feel like roaming the african savannas (or whatever elephants do). And how to you improve finger memory in elephants in your seminar?

Egghead

[Egghead]

Nobody memorizes stuff like that in that detail, unless they specialize in that discipline. If you look around the forum, you'll see the same, or similar, lengthy answers given to the same, or similar, questions. It's called recycling, and it's the way to handle the same, or similar, questions.

re: recycling:
to my knowledge, nobody previously gave an explicit list of these muscles.

re: memorizing - see my other post; I also believe that this thread implies we are specialising (at least momentarily) in this discipline, in that we are talking about it and focus on it.

what would be the point of listing the things if they do not enter anyone's brain?

Egghead

[bernhard]

The question "Have you memorized all this as well?" remains. It was indeed the humorous formulation of a serious question:
"Do you know all this by heart now as well?". I look forward to your answer to this question!

I teach this stuff everyday, so although I did not set out to memorise it, I have.

Hey, and what about my REALLY REALLY serious elephant questions? Always wanted to know what elephants feel like roaming the african savannas (or whatever elephants do). And how to you improve finger memory in elephants in your seminar?

Elephants are bad boys.

They have an aim in their savanah roamings: To find a mango tree full of ripe mangoes. Once they do, they proceed to eat lots of mangoes. The mangoes stay a while in their four stomachs (they are ruminants) and therein they ferment. Alcohol is produced and they get drunk.

Then in this inebriated state they go around singing songs and climbing on tables (if there is a piano around they will paly it - badly) and generally making a show of themselves. But being elephants and all, things get broken: trees are felled, houses are crushed and so on.

The next day, they have massive hangovers and claim not to remember what they did.

That's when I come in. I have a part time job with the Social Services to give elephant's memory seminars so that they will act more responsibly next time.

The police tried to outlaw mangoes, but the main result of that was that the baboon mafia got a real hold in the mango black market. Crime and violence increased as the chimps tried to get a piece of the market. It was not a pretty sight.

Now they are trying experimentally to liberate mangoes for personal use, but if you are caught wiht more than four tons of mangoes (you would be amazed at what an elephant can personally use) you are in trouble.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[xvimbi]

Have faith! You will end up an old cynical...

My apologies if you can indeed reproduce all this in that detail from memory. My memory is not as good anymore as it was, so I have a huge notebook...

[Egghead]

I teach this stuff everyday, so although I did not set out to memorise it, I have.

why ?
I was hoping to see this in print. Written by you. Thankyou, Bernhard.

And don't you DARE lie to us about this

Elephants are bad boys.
They have an aim in their savanah roamings: To find a mango tree full of ripe mangoes. Once they do, they proceed to eat lots of mangoes. The mangoes stay a while in their four stomachs (they are ruminants) and therein they ferment. Alcohol is produced and they get drunk.

YES: you GOT THE CLUE . Elephants really do this, it is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but. I have SEEN it (ok, only on TV. Forgotten is was mangos, though. It thought it was some kind of overripe-berries.). Anyone else watched this?

Then in this inebriated state they go around singing songs and climbing on tables (if there is a piano around they will paly it - badly) and generally making a show of themselves. But being elephants and all, things get broken: trees are felled, houses are crushed and so on.

It is terrible. Giraffes and even lions flee the scene. The more sophisticated elephants actually discuss the special taste and ripeness of the mangoes, and the impact of this year's weather on the mangoe yield and quality. They also try to get the others to sing in tune. Then they become unable to talk (using tummy rumbles), and fall over backwards. Their snoring is TERRIFYING as you might imagine.

The next day, they have massive hangovers and claim not to remember what they did. That's when I come in. I have a part time job with the Social Services to give elephant's memory seminars so that they will act more responsibly next time.

Phew, that sounds like a HARD job. You make them memorise songs like "dada the mango, makes me go bango", and the like?

The police tried to outlaw mangoes, but the main result of that was that the baboon mafia got a real hold in the mango black market. Crime and violence increased as the chimps tried to get a piece of the market. It was not a pretty sight.

Now they are trying experimentally to liberate mangoes for personal use, but if you are caught wiht more than four tons of mangoes (you would be amazed at what an elephant can personally use) you are in trouble.

Last I heard was the baboons marketing a much more concentrated alternative. They discovered they could ferment and dry the bark of certain trees, and the stuff is even stronger than the mangoes, if you chew it for long enough.

One elephant nearly died by drowning, having a mud-bath under-the-influence: he jumped into the mud upside down. Fortunately, some fellows pulled him out at the last minute. One of them pulled an atrophied muscle doing this (getting back to the thread here).

Egghead  

[Egghead]

You are da man Bernhard!

I have a question about my hands: ...
What muscles am I lacking here?

Thankyou, DrEvil for asking this question! It has triggered Bernhard to write a post that is, um, like a revelation to me.
Nilsjohan -could we have a smiley for astonished admiration please?
Bernhard - so where are the "counter-muscles" to the lumbricales? Do they not exist?

Off to find and play with my lumbricales (they get tired quickly, it seems)
Egghead

[elephant]

Me too would like to thank Bernhard for his extremely insightful posts - it´s indeed a revelation when people REALLY know their stuff.

Having played the piano for a year with a constant stiff wrist, I have struggled the last couple of months trying to relearn playing the piano from scratch, using the fingers to move the keys.

The first pages of exercises from Alfred Cortots book have helped a lot, but getting the "lumbricales" (I feel I can´t just use the word as should it have been a part of my vocabulary...) up to scratch seems like a much more direct approach.

Having just read your posts, the stuff have yet to sink in, and I have only had a few go's finding the actual muscles, but I will ask a question that may perhaps prove to be self explanatory (Correct spelling?) as I get the muscles working...

After having quit playing the stressed way, I have some troubles playing the fast runs of Mozart Sonatas and the like - are these supposed to be played only using the lumbricales, or the other muscles, or perhaps a combination?

Thanks again!

[DrEvil-]

Yes, I have to join in in the Bernhard thanksgiving here- I was up till 2 or 3 in the morning reading his posts a few weeks ago. Thanks Bernhard!!!



I have another question - how do the muscles in the hand relate to the tendons in the arm?

[elephant]

Hohum, I guess I´ll risk a couple more questions, the one a bit more piano related than the other.

Firstly, after focusing on loosening up my play, I have made big improvements, and can play everything going not so fast wonderfully relaxed. Do I know I am playing the right way when my hands and wrists are relaxed, and I can feel my curved fingers are doing most of the work?

The second question is more about anatomy than playing the piano (if even that...). My posture (is this the right English word for  "using your body right"?) is very bad, I have sit like an idiot on chairs for my whole life, and have this crazy, stomach two feet in front of my nose, way of using my body. I have tried correcting it lately, but when I´m straightening up my body, especially sitting on the piano chair, I feel I can´t breathe the proper way with my stomach, forcing me to "stress". What´s my problem? (It feels like my internal organs are too short forwhen I am keeping my body straight...)

[xvimbi]

Firstly, after focusing on loosening up my play, I have made big improvements, and can play everything going not so fast wonderfully relaxed. Do I know I am playing the right way when my hands and wrists are relaxed, and I can feel my curved fingers are doing most of the work?

I prefer my arms doing most of the work, not the fingers. That does not preclude a supple wrist. A stiff wrist is bad, but supple means that the wrist is tensed when necessary and relaxed otherwise.

The second question is more about anatomy than playing the piano (if even that...). My posture (is this the right English word for  "using your body right"?) is very bad, I have sit like an idiot on chairs for my whole life, and have this crazy, stomach two feet in front of my nose, way of using my body. I have tried correcting it lately, but when I´m straightening up my body, especially sitting on the piano chair, I feel I can´t breathe the proper way with my stomach, forcing me to "stress". What´s my problem? (It feels like my internal organs are too short forwhen I am keeping my body straight...)

Proper posture is of course absolutely critical. The problem when going from a bad posture to a good posture is that the good posture will initially feel wrong. The muscles in the body have become accustomed to the bad posture. They will have to adapt to the new posture, and that will take quite some time. Moving from a bad to a good posture needs to be done very slowly. Adopt the good posture whenever you can until you get tired of it. Over the course of a few months, the amount of time spent in the bad posture will go down until you are finally comfortable in the new (and hopefully better) posture.

[Egghead]

Having played the piano for a year with a constant stiff wrist, I have struggled the last couple of months trying to relearn playing the piano from scratch, using the fingers to move the keys.

Hi Elephant,

I am glad you weren't offended by the mildly  silly "elephantics" earlier on!

I am also confused: how did you move the keys during that year with a stiff wrist, other than by using your fingers?
How are you relearning? Do you have the feeling of weak muscles being strengthened?

Other than with these funny lumbricales (which I still have trouble isolating), to me it seems rather a matter of lots of things that happen in the brain.

Actually, Bernhard's list had many more potentially atrophied muscles. I am still trying to make sense of this - can you find the things in his list? I wonder whether the ones that roll your hand up (so the knuckles form a semicircle, rather than being on a line) are in the radial and ulnar group rather than palm?
I dont see how one uses those much in everyday life (unless you do knitting or dusting or something? ). So: do you feel anything with those?

After having quit playing the stressed way, I have some troubles playing the fast runs of Mozart Sonatas and the like - are these supposed to be played only using the lumbricales, or the other muscles, or perhaps a combination?

so previously you had no trouble? What is different now? The impression I got from Bernhard's post was that if its a long passage you will be switching between muscle groups, in the sense of using a combination with varied involvement of lumbricales. cool word these lumbrics.

A strangely fascinating topic...
Egghead

[bernhard]

Hey Egghead! Look at this! I’ve got a question from Elephant!!!

Have you been to one of my memory seminars?!?  

(Sorry for fooling around, I just couldn’t resist!)

Me too would like to thank Bernhard

You are welcome.

Having played the piano for a year with a constant stiff wrist, I have struggled the last couple of months trying to relearn playing the piano from scratch, using the fingers to move the keys.

The first pages of exercises from Alfred Cortots book have helped a lot, but getting the "lumbricales" (I feel I can´t just use the word as should it have been a part of my vocabulary...) up to scratch seems like a much more direct approach.

Having just read your posts, the stuff have yet to sink in, and I have only had a few go's finding the actual muscles, but I will ask a question that may perhaps prove to be self explanatory (Correct spelling?) as I get the muscles working...

After having quit playing the stressed way, I have some troubles playing the fast runs of Mozart Sonatas and the like - are these supposed to be played only using the lumbricales, or the other muscles, or perhaps a combination?

Thanks again!

I don’t want you to get the wrong impression here. Piano playing is done with all the muscles in the body!

The general principle is that the fingers are the very last link in a chain of co-ordinations, so you never start from the fingers. Efficient, elegant, effortless movement always start from the centre: The centre moves the extremities and not the other way around. Most sports follow this basic principle, but Taichi and aikido are particularly useful to develop this sort of movement/co-ordination because they will not work unless you get it right. Other martial arts/sports/physical disciplines are not so demanding so you will be able to get away with less than perfect movements (although your performance will be always mediocre).

Piano playing is also like that. Because intonation is not a problem on the piano, anyone will be able to elicit a reasonable sound from it, even with less than perfect movements – but unless one starts directing oneself towards perfection, one’s playing will never rise above mediocrity.

The lumbricales are extremely small and weak muscles. In no way I am suggesting that one should play using only the lumbricales (and I doubt this would be possible) – By the way, have a look at an anatomy book so you can actually see where these muscles are – a written description is a very poor substitute for visual information. If you have the opportunity, try to observe these muscles in 3D – either wax models or computer simulations. I know that there is an anatomy CD-rom for sale somewhere in the net with a lot of computer animation.

The one I use (and my students find it very helpful) is “Acland’s DVD Atlas of Human Anatomy” (DVD 1: The upper extremity), which dissects the whole arm from the shoulder to the tips of the fingers, layer by layer, showing all the muscles, where they attach to the bones and what movement do they cause.

Again, although isolating muscles can be very illuminating, you should not aim to play the piano with just one set of muscles. Most of the movements necessary for piano playing need the precise co-ordination of several muscles, the more the better.

Finally, (I said this several times, but I will repeat it again) it is very easy to get entangled in the minutiae of movement, but it is not necessary, nor it is advisable. Instead of worrying about all the possible micro movements, concentrate and focus on the sound you want to produce. If your mental representation of your desired sound is clear enough the physical apparatus will comply.

Have a look at these threads as well.

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=teac;action=display;num=1079042149

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=teac;action=display;num=1083060519;start=26

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=teac;action=display;num=1082333900;start=10

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=teac;action=display;num=1082333900;start=10

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=stud;action=display;num=1081041954;start=3

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=perf;action=display;num=1078960870;start=10

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=teac;action=display;num=1079042149;start=1

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=stud;action=display;num=1078729387;start=5

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=stud;action=display;num=1077496446;start=2

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=stud;action=display;num=1073633817;start=9

https://www.pianoforum.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=stud;action=display;num=1073518516;start=4

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

Yes, I have to join in in the Bernhard thanksgiving here- I was up till 2 or 3 in the morning reading his posts a few weeks ago. Thanks Bernhard!!!

You are welcome.

I have another question - how do the muscles in the hand relate to the tendons in the arm?

The best way to see this is to look at the pictures in a book of anatomy.

I assume that when you say “tendons in the arm” you mean the forearm muscles’s tendons that extend all the way to the finger tips (the flexors and extensors). If so, they actually attach themselves to these tendons (for instance, the lumbricales are accessories to the flexor profundis tendons, arising from the tendons)

There are also several sheaths and ligaments in the hands/fingers that perform important functions (and limit the range of action of the several muscles), and these should be known as well.

Again I suggest that you get the DVD I mentioned above, since there is no substitute to actually seeing all this in action and in 3D.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

Hohum, I guess I´ll risk a couple more questions, the one a bit more piano related than the other.

Firstly, after focusing on loosening up my play, I have made big improvements, and can play everything going not so fast wonderfully relaxed. Do I know I am playing the right way when my hands and wrists are relaxed, and I can feel my curved fingers are doing most of the work?

Your upper arm and shoulders should be doing most of the work, not your curved fingers. The fingers should be neither curled not straight, but naturally arched (drop your hand by your side, relax the hand and observe this natural finger position: that is what you aim as a neutral position – you will not be able to ply in this position, but your fingers should return to it as often as possible – I will not give more details here since I have written about it in the threads I suggested above. I also suggest you have a look at xvimbi and Robert Henry’s posts, since they often talk about this with consistently excellent suggestions).

The second question is more about anatomy than playing the piano (if even that...). My posture (is this the right English word for  "using your body right"?) is very bad, I have sit like an idiot on chairs for my whole life, and have this crazy, stomach two feet in front of my nose, way of using my body. I have tried correcting it lately, but when I´m straightening up my body, especially sitting on the piano chair, I feel I can´t breathe the proper way with my stomach, forcing me to "stress". What´s my problem? (It feels like my internal organs are too short forwhen I am keeping my body straight...)

Someone said somewhere that the whole point is to have a good posture all the time, otherwise good posture at the piano is impossible. I agree.

Good posture is also a very misunderstood subject. In my experience the people with the best postures I have ever met were practitioners of yoga, soft martial arts (aikido, taichi, bagua), Alexander technique and Feldenkrais. I suggest that you investigate these disciplines ( you will be overwhelmed by the number of sites if you google any of these subjects), and preferably start practising one of them. And I completely agree with xvimbi in his comments towards your question.

Also ask questions that are more specific, otherwise it is difficult to know where to start (and keep in mind that such physical questions cannot be properly answered through written explanations. A hands on approach is mandatory).

I hope this helps.
Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[elephant]

Thanks for great replies!

I am also confused: how did you move the keys during that year with a stiff wrist, other than by using your fingers?   
How are you relearning? Do you have the feeling of weak muscles being strengthened?

At the time, I didn´t pay any attention to the way I played, and I´m quite annoyed that my teacher didn´t point it out. (Now I play on my own...) Anyway, I always pressed my hand down towards the keyboard, and kind of transfered the weight from the one finger (and key) to the next, so that when I had played a key, I continued to press it downwards with unchanged strength. This way, I could actually play unbelievably fast, but I played with constant stress, and reached a point where I didn´t improve very much.

These long lists of muscles where indeed overwhelming, and I have not had much luck locating every one of them, but having this  kind of scientific backdrop (I am feeling this word may be a bit unapropriate - please bear over with my bad english...) restores my faith in that learning to play properly is still possible.

Now, I focus on always taking my time when playing a key, that is,  never force my hand (and body) to perform any moves it is not able to do in a relaxed way. It´s been a revelation, but fast scales are still difficult, and I´m still after a good set of exercises to improve matters (but perhaps giving my muscles time is the key...).
As I mentioned, I feel that the first exercises in Cortots Rationtal principle of pianoforte technique have helped, but this sentence

In particular, you should never try to exercise the 4th finger with the 3rd and 5th fingers held down

restores some of my earlier doubts. I actually felt playing a key when holding all the other fingers down was a good way of isolating and trainging the muscles of a particular finger, but this is perhaps bad practise?

By the way, don´t be afraid of telling more elephant stories - I love them! (And bear over with the bad quoting...)

[xvimbi]

These long lists of muscles where indeed overwhelming, and I have not had much luck locating every one of them

Don't try too hard. The deep muscles cannot be located unless you have a knife at hand  

I actually felt playing a key when holding all the other fingers down was a good way of isolating and trainging the muscles of a particular finger, but this is perhaps bad practise?

Repeatedly moving fingers while the others are held down is a good way to injury! Some of "Schmitt Exercies" do exactly that. I shudder at the thought of playing a trill with fingers 3 and 4 while the other fingers are pressed down. I know this doesn't sound convincing, because one often has to hold notes while playing others with the same hand, but these exercises are ill-conceived. The reason is because they do the same thing over and over. It is ok to do it in the context of a passage in a piece, but not constantly for half an hour. One should never do the same movement over and over and over (unless it involves eating fois gras)

[elephant]

Scary stuff!

Anyway, doing all these exercises takes no more than ten minuites, and only a few are concerned with this holding down the fingers - practise. Is the idea so bad that it should be completely avoided, or can I play (if it´s a point at all...) this way if I´m sure to take care?

[xvimbi]

Scary stuff!

Anyway, doing all these exercises takes no more than ten minuites, and only a few are concerned with this holding down the fingers - practise. Is the idea so bad that it should be completely avoided, or can I play (if it´s a point at all...) this way if I´m sure to take care?

Here is the way I approach these and a lot of other things: I try to understand the physical principles involved. Bernhard's explanations are an excellent starting point. The E. Jayne quote is the key. Once you know the basics, you can decide for yourself which exercise is good and which is bad. Unfortunately, it takes a lot of time to acquire that kind of knowledge. Therefore, one must also be pragmatic and go by empirical criteria. Here, the guiding principle is pain. If you practice a movement and feel discomfort, stop immediately. Then evaulate the movement, try to understand why tension builds up, fatigue sets in, or outright pain develops. If you find out you have been doing an exercise that is anatomically/physiologically impossible, abandon it and tell your friends. If the execution is wrong, learn how it's done correctly. Never, never do any exercise, follow any fingering suggestion, posture rule, anything, without critical evaluation.

My mantra is: "The more you understand the principles, the better you will be able to do it".

This certainly applies to piano playing.

[elephant]

Is there an automated system for quoting with date and all

Anyway, what you say sounds very reasonable.  I would love to play without doing any exercises at all.

I´m still concerned about how to play fast scales and such, though. Of course, I can allways warm up and stress them, but I want to learn how to play them fast and effortlessly. I´m sure I can find something by searching these great fora

[xvimbi]

Is there an automated system for quoting with date and all

Yes

I´m still concerned about how to play fast scales and such, though. Of course, I can allways warm up and stress them, but I want to learn how to play them fast and effortlessly. I´m sure I can find something by searching these great fora

You need a teacher who can show you these techniques. Trying to find them yourself is too difficult, time consuming, and injury-prone.

Oh yes, the quotes: just click on "Quote" next to the subject of a post. You'll see how the quoting syntax works.

[super_ardua]

Mainly the forearm ones are the ones which get tired.

Mainly,  the muscles don't play a major major part,  the weight of arm does the work.  Muscles focus the weight.

But I am no teacher and I myself am not very good at piano so you may ignore me if you wish.

[elephant]

I won´t ignore you at all, super_ardua - I´m sure you are right. I guess what we are after is some kind of a compromoise between fingerwork and arm weight - my old approach wasn´t too succesful. I think I´ve found out that my main problems is my fourth and fifth fingers being weak compared to the others, and to remedy this problem I´ve started to compose a tune using just these four fingers

[bernhard]

Have a look here for a very interesting article on speed playing and how to develop it (with special reference to tension x relaxation):

https://www.sankey.ws/speed.html

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Egghead]

Have a look here for a very interesting article on speed playing and how to develop it (with special reference to tension x relaxation):
https://www.sankey.ws/speed.html

yes, thankyou, Bernhard! I just noticed how much I had overlooked when I first went to Sankey's site.
Egghead