Reviewing the last few months threads...

[perfect_pitch]

To those who read this, and especially to those who don't   

I feel that in the last few months, the amount of threads created (that I would consider stupid) seems to have grown. Back when I joined this great forum (which was more than 5 years ago), I seriously saw this forum as a collaboration of pianists, piano players and serious musicians who were eager to help anyone in need and to share their wisdom.

In the LAST few months - I have seen more and more random people who will simply sign up to this forum - ask an insanely stupid question like 'I need music for this' or 'can someone do my homework for me', get the usual flamming for asking such a stupid question and then bugger off - never to be seen again.
It seems to me that the intellectuals of this site who have been around since the beginning are hard to spot now that we have people just plaguing the forum with crappy questions.

Here's a couple of posts that I think were just created by people who are too ignorant to go to a library, too ignorant to ask their piano teacher or just plain too ignorant to use their brain.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=41549.0
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=41258.0 - Another bright example...
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=41547.0 - So basically, computers are the way to musical education???
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=41068.0 - Another example...
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=41417.0 - This was a great thread - started by someone who didn't seem to take this thread seriously.
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=41364.0

I'm just sick of the people who sign up - go I WANT THIS, I WANT THAT - GIVE IT TO ME NOW! Get what they want and then f**k off, or piss and moan because we didn't give it to them... and still f**k off.

I think I'm just bloody pissed at how many times I see a thread entitled something along the line of:

Which is easier ?? or ??
I need music notes - GIVE ME NOW!
Buy cheap crap here
LOOK AT ME!

or Slow_concert_pianists recordings... which although they get taken down quite quickly - I know he's just taking the bloody piss out of all of us and should be banned. Why continue letting him post if the threads are going to get deleted anyway???

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is it just me - or am I just an over-cynical wanker with a low tolerance for stupidity???

[ted]

As I shall have been here ten years next April, I suppose I am as qualified as anybody to comment. I have always approached this forum with a view to help and be helped. Opinion, argument and debate are very secondary to my purpose, so I seldom embark upon them. Debate can have a useful function but not if it degenerates into an emotional shouting match. Opinion, however unusual, is just that, and doesn't bear stating more than once.

Questions to the effect of "Am I ready to play this piece ?", "Should I play this piece ?", are rather silly, as such questions do not require the opinions of others. Indeed, how can anyone else possibly know for sure ? A few hours spent attempting to play something should give a very clear indication of how long the process, if feasible, will take.

I agree that demanding copies of scores is rude. There is nothing wrong with asking the forum where a given score can be obtained, but the correct process might involve buying it just like we must purchase other things we desire.

I think the increase in posts advertising things might be due to the present financial situation. Many people need to try new avenues to get a few dollars, even those with ostensibly little to offer. Provided it is not allowed to reach a state of nuisance or clutter on the forum I am inclined to simply ignore this trend. By rights, the forum owner may make whatever rules he likes about advertising.

The "Look at me" syndrome, I guess is all right if there is really something to look at, enjoy, listen to or learn from. It very much depends on the purpose behind the "Look at me". I post about one recording a month, I suppose, if that, for the reason that I suspect a certain few people here really like some of my stuff, and because very many people have told me I am selfish not to share my music.  For me personally, the internet provides a handy antidote to this accusation.

Has the forum changed in this regard in recent months ? Hard to say, as I don't read everything, and I post far less often than I used to. I'd have to take your word for that.

[ongaku_oniko]

I'd have to say that it seems that the quality of the forum has went down after becky left.

What we have now is an increasing number of ignorant people (like me) joining the forum, and the number of helpful and experienced members going down. Birba hardly posts anymore, ted is still here, but how many more are there?

We're left with a bunch of new people, and a bunch of arrogant worthless people who seem to think that their arrogance is somehow abated by writing "Best" at the end of their posts.

[perfect_pitch]

What we have now is an increasing number of ignorant people (like me) joining the forum

I disagree with that - generally, your comments are full of carefully deliberated opinion, mixed with some knowledge and sensibility.

I'm talking about people who sign up - and go LOOK AT ME, I DO THIS, I DO THAT. Then berate anyone who offers any reasonable criticism or corrections.

Like:

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=41417.0

This sort of example. People who post crap, then piss and moan when we offer tangible advice on how to fix something. Yes his information was wrong - and he did point that out very clearly. But when a guy can't take this advice and we get replies like THIS:

you my friend are a total nonse. this gives people a quick understanding of notes and chords and starts to open up peoples minds about the piano. this aint about getting people to fully understand scales and sh*t. this is purely a stepping stone you big disrespectful knob head. go sit in the corner with your piano and cry some more you fcuking retard

as a retalliation, instead of analysing what's wrong with his own work - it just reminds us that there seems to be an infinite number of tossers out there on the internet.

ongaku_oniko... I'm not talking about people like you - I'm talking about people like him.   

[thalbergmad]

Oh happy days are here again..........

[birba]

Oh happy days are here again..........

You think so?  I pondered on what you said in a thread a few days ago, about if someone leaves they just leave without saying anything.  You're right.  I've sort of lost interest here.  I used to listen to all the audition room postings, make notes, comment, sometimes even do a video, etc. Now I could care less.  Maybe it's just a slump?  It was so exciting when Becky and oldlady pianist were here.  Wierd, isn't it?  We actually discussed intelligent things.  How is that possible a hoax and made-up people can be so utterly authentic and tangible?!
No, I think this site is wonderful and is a treasure trove of info.  I'm even playing that Dutré prelude rachfan posted a while ago, in a concert.  But like everything else, it is worth only as much as the effort you put into it.  If you have that effort.  Am I coherent?  I feel like one of those battery bunnies that are losing the juice...

[thalbergmad]

Like all forums, there are boom times and slumps and it is arguable a slump at the moment, but is it not incredible that the forum has been running for 10 years and still interesting topics come up and interesting discussions??. One would have thought that like a star it would have used up it's fuel and imploded.

We have lost many interesting members, but only today, one (Indutrial) has returned which was both unexpected and refreshing.

I predict a bright future, but that might just be my naturally sunny disposition.

Thal

[indutrial]

I'd consider any time period that doesn't include posters spamming other users with scat pornography a net plus for the forum as a whole, but that's just me.

Thanks for the welcome back, Thal.

[ongaku_oniko]

Thanks, perfect_pitch.

But I think, for the purpose of intelligent discussion, we really need a few more birbas and a few more bernhards (why do they always start with a "b"?)

People like me want to help, but just don't know enough can't contribute too much to the atmosphere. And I must admit, I know participating in useless arguments can only bring a negative vibe to the forum, though I find it hard to stop when they always post (what I perceive to be) unsubstantiated logical fallacies. But that's besides the point.

I registered just before lady pianist and becky left. I guess I've been spoiled by their presence. During those short few weeks, I've not only learned a lot about music, I also learned to love music, and many other things in life. I found the self control, the drive to practise and work hard, not only for piano but also for other things.

I'm losing my drive again, and haven't practised in quite a while. But objectively speaking, how much can we expect from a free online forum? As it is, this forum is above average; at least there are a few helpful people and some intelligent discussions going on. The "golden era" while becky was here would've probably been one of the most helpful free online forums in existence.

So we're not in the worst possible situation, but certainly we're not in the best.

But I was just thinking, what good is it complaining about it? I think there are one of three things we can do:

1. Just leave, since the forum is getting boring.

2. Stay and bare with the unintelligent discussion, while hoping for good discussions.

3. Be assertive, and help the forum return to its past glory. How? Well, I know many of you are musicians, so why not ask your musician friends to join? That would be a start.

Unfortunately I think number 1 is the easiest of the choices, and it seems as birba has already cosen it. I'm really sad to see birba go, as his videos really helped me. Then again, I bet my arguments and immaturity was part of why birba finds this place not so a home anymore. I'm sorry if I contributed to your lose of interest, briba.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

perfect_pitch is absolutely right.

It doesn't help that (not naming names) there have been posters on here who really do know what they are talking about - and as a result become a target for argumentative imbeciles intent on attention-seeking. Understandably they then eventually leave rather than have to deal with a debate conducted under a basis of pseudo-equality of viewpoints. There's still good stuff around however, just have to filter out all the garbage first..

[perfect_pitch]

You are right in saying that 'how much can we expect from a free forum'... this forum is free and it is here - but I think the disappointing thing is that many of us here know the forum from way back - and we didn't 'expect' a lot, but we 'learned' a lot from the forum.

I do still like posting threads and performances (when I get the time and ability to do so), but as ronde_des_sylphes said - you have to filter out the garbage... and that's the point.

There didn't really seem to be any garbage 5 years ago - heck, even 3 or 2 years ago there wasn't really any garbage to filter out. I know there's good stuff, but it seems harder to find these days.

Asking musician friends to join would help a little and boost the intelligence of the forum, but at the same time - considering that we've seen idiots sign up for free, and within 5 minutes - splattered the place with advertising. And again... another bloody thread has popped up asking about which Chopin Etudes are the hardest. Yes - the user may be new - but for goodness sake... considering that it seems to be asked every one or two months, which ones the easiest, which ones the hardest, which ones the most beautiful, which one is better... I feel like I'm going to kill someone.

[keyboardclass]

Which one makes you want to kill...

[birba]

Oh, I'm not leaving.  I was just saying if you do leave, you just leave with no notice.  No hard feelings, no animostiy.  You just leave.  I would never leave because of someone else or something said.  And certainly not because of you, Ongaku wo niko!  I think you've added a little spice and turbulence to this forum!

[ramseytheii]

Personally I am not bothered by the people advertising their website or piano method or whatnot, but I have noticed that lately, maybe it is the past few months maybe longer, the subjects are just more amateurish than they were in the past.  There are certainly a lot of "Chopin etude" and "What should I play" threads but there always have been.  Now there is just less of interesting discussion on advanced technical issues, or more specialized pieces.  As a result I don't post as much, though I still do monitor what is being posted out of curiosity.

I especially used to enjoy the music theory room (I was probably the one who enjoyed it the most) but the topics have been really brutal there lately.

Walter Ramsey

[ahinton]

We're left with a bunch of new people, and a bunch of arrogant worthless people who seem to think that their arrogance is somehow abated by writing "Best" at the end of their posts.

Leaving aside your reasoning, if any, for the above assertions, do you by chance have a list of members that fall into the latter category, or is your self-confessed ignorance a bar to your ability to provide one?

****,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Stay and bare with the unintelligent discussion

I'm not sure that nudity is allowed here. "Bear", surely (in the mention of which I am reminded of member "ada"'s quote about the American constitution's enshrining of the right of that country's citizens to arm bears).

++++,

Alistair

[perfect_pitch]

Okay... That's it... I am getting REALLY PISSED OFF at the amount of spam we've gotten in the last few days.

Let's see...

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=41772.0

Then there's...

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=41815.0

and ultimately... one of the worst disasters this week...

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=41755.0

and that's only in the last 4 bloody days.



Is it possible to maybe disallow any new members from inserting a hyper-link for the first couple of days or something to try and cull this inane crap that seems to become more and more common???

Personally... since these guys signed up simply to post their tumultous crap, I'd wish them to be banned from the site, but obviously the great Nilsjohan is in charge of that...

But I'm just sick of people signing up to post their shitty products. To those who have been long time members... can you think of any ways that may help curb this growing problem???

[ted]

No, short of deletion, which as you say is the prerogative of the forum owner, I cannot think of any other way except just ignoring them, which I have been doing for years here and elsewhere.

Any course, method or system which states that playing or creating really meaningful piano music, even for oneself, is "easy" in any way usually causes me to stop reading about it right away. To be really good at playing, composing or improvising with any sense of achievement is an exceedingly difficult, deep and protracted activity for all of us, taking a lifetime regardless of natural talent. Nothing worthwhile is ever easy.

There was only one such course, the Shefte series of books, popular many years ago, which did seem to make the odd self-taught, fluent player in its particular, restricted swing style. Well, I knew a couple anyway. But it needed an awful lot of discipline and perseverance, and at no point did it suggest otherwise.

There just may be something of real merit out there, I suppose, but I have yet to find it.

[pianowolfi]

To those who have been long time members... can you think of any ways that may help curb this growing problem???

Hitting the report button used to work quite efficiently...

[nilsjohan]

can you think of any ways that may help curb this growing problem???

As suggested by ted and pianowolfi, ignoring or making use of the "report to moderator" link are good ways to deal with spam. When spam posts are reported they are removed and the user banned, usually within a day or two.

However, discussions about products or methods which may not be of the highest pedagogical or artistic standard can somtimes be quite healty. Just removing a link or posting an insulting comment will not make the product/website fall off the face of the earth. If we are concerned about quality in our area (piano playing, teaching and music) open discussions about all kinds of methods and products should be welcomed on this forum.

[lostinidlewonder]

The worst type of threads is where two or three people are talking to each other only and then the topic ends up getting 10000 responses and it is over a subject that no one else in the community really cares about. Other members end up getting sucked into the contributing to these threads because they see it every day for a month shooting to the top of the forum list.

The "fake expert" is also something that is starting to become more rampant on pianostreet. People who pose as an expert or specialist in a particular train of thought and start throwing famous books around the place without even knowing the context of what was written, skewing valid ideas into unimaginable misinformation which is directed through posts with tangents that completely miss the point.

When a real issue is talked about we notice that these fakers keep away and have no idea what to say. Sometimes they try to contribute but what they say is just totally irrelevant to real musical study. Ok this might be ok, we can pick and choose, but really this type of content on forums is extremely damaging to beginners who do not know what is right or wrong. As a professional musician and teacher I can see through the posts as clear as day, but for the beginner students they will merely get totally confused at pianostreet.

More posts and views on stupid threads vs serious threads. I noticed some serious threads get like 6 views per day but then some stupid threads get like 100! It just goes to show what people want to read about.. even on piano forums. It is annoying when stupid threads get so much response and thought, but when a serious thread is posted people ignore it because it takes too much brain power to think about.

[keyboardclass]

The worst type of threads is where two or three people are talking to each other only and then the topic ends up getting 10000 responses and it is over a subject that no one else in the community really cares about.

You know what?  They don't even have to open them let alone contribute!

[pianisten1989]

Okay what to do in the "theory of technique is dead" topic?
It's impossible to contribute. The only way to get a respond is to either make fun of the person, being rude, or plain stupid. If you're trying to add something you get some sort of "No, you're wrong"-respond.

What to do if I actually wanted to discuss with them? I mean, what they do isn't against any rule, but it's super annoying, cause you can't have a normal discussion.

[oxy60]

I think that for a music forum there is very little discussion about music.

For example, how Beethoven constructs a piece, how a key is chosen, or in what way should an harmonic sequence be altered. Somewhere along the road to becoming a working musician one will be required to harmonize a given theme. Depending on the level it could range from putting a new harmonic sequence to "God Save the Queen" or fleshing out a twelve tone theme.

Rather here we get discussions about which digital might be best, how to muffle an acoustic upright, or identifying old pianos. All valuable topics within the broad umbrella but somehow they have become the umbrella. 

[mrba1979]

People like me want to help, but just don't know enough can't contribute too much to the atmosphere.

I'm losing my drive again, and haven't practised in quite a while.

But I was just thinking, what good is it complaining about it? I think there are one of three things we can do:

1. Just leave, since the forum is getting boring.

2. Stay and bare with the unintelligent discussion, while hoping for good discussions.

3. Be assertive, and help the forum return to its past glory. How? Well, I know many of you are musicians, so why not ask your musician friends to join? That would be a start.

bump

First time ever using the bump expression!  Seriously I am no longer a bump virgin.  This is the only forum I am on and have ever used and if you look through all my posts no bump.

I think that for a music forum there is very little discussion about music.

For example, how Beethoven constructs a piece, how a key is chosen, or in what way should an harmonic sequence be altered. Somewhere along the road to becoming a working musician one will be required to harmonize a given theme. Depending on the level it could range from putting a new harmonic sequence to "God Save the Queen" or fleshing out a twelve tone theme.

Rather here we get discussions about which digital might be best, how to muffle an acoustic upright, or identifying old pianos. All valuable topics within the broad umbrella but somehow they have become the umbrella. 

bump.  Well all be there it is again.

I have been with this forum since sometime in 2008, and though you can see I am not a prolific poster I check here at least once a week.  The above two quotes echo my thoughts with this forum.  Though do I need to say that since I bumped each one of them.  I am not sure since I am still new at bumping. 

I am for one not as engaged with my piano playing.  Seems to me more like we are married now and are ignoring each other.  However I still and have always enjoyed classical piano music and I love the audition room.  There may not be as many nice recordings being posted but there is a wealth of great recordings which are conveniently cataloged.  There is also a large resource of knowledge all at the tip of a search function.  Overall this is still one of my favorite and I still believe one of the best websites to visit. So maybe I am not a great contributor, but perhaps I can best help by thanking all of you who are dedicated to making this a great forum.

I do miss the exchanges between Thal and Susan.  When nothing good was on TV they could at least keep me entertained.

[brogers70]

I don't post all that much. It is easy to ignore offensive or boring threads; the internet is full of pointless arguments, anyway. Best just not to let it bug you.

This forum has been very helpful to me for (1) Bernhard's old threads and (2) when I ask a specific question about a technical problem, and give enough details about what the problem is and what I've tried to do about it in a particular piece or with a specific technique, I always get several helpful, thoughtful answers.

[pies]

Do not worry; I am back. 

[gerryjay]

Dear folks,
A suggestion to prevent spam. Why newbies don't have some sort of quarentine before being allowed to start a new thread? I know a forum where this is made by time: three months to start your own thread. But I think that contributing would be a more effective way: let's say, 50 posts before that.

Best regards,
Jay.

[sordel]

Just a few words from a complete novice to the site.

These forums aren't intended for me because I don't play piano. I was briefly concerned by the message that posting in the repertoire and performance forums was meant for advanced pianists. Then I read through a few threads, and realised that I could scarcely do worse than some of the people already posting in them.

So I started posting, which was made easier because many of the threads are no more technical than the threads I contribute to over on the Head-Fi forums: i.e. totally non-specialist. I'd actually welcome reading a thread where I felt I had no basis for comment, and even read one of the teaching threads today because it was actually about piano technique.

I think that if you want to build back up from where you are to a more specialised forum, you really need to stop getting waylaid on every stupid thread that someone starts ... maybe a bit of active moderation locking unpromising or derailed topics would help. Or maybe set up a junk sub-forum and just prune every junk thread to it straight away so people can chatter away on subjects that entertain them without bringing the general standard of conversation down.

[thalbergmad]

This place would be greatly improved if the Sorabji lovers used their own forum and not this one.

Thal

[djealnla]

This place would be greatly improved if the Sorabji lovers used their own forum and not this one.

Look who's talking.

[thalbergmad]

Alas, as yet, I do not have my own forum.

[oxy60]

We wish you did but we would miss you here. And we would be constantly going from one to the other to keep up.

What is more of a concern is that most posters only ask questions to which we do our best to answer. However, that form of posting won't start discussions.  It's not their fault, the Q&A form of conversation is all to common these days.

A declarative  statement is a very rare . Even more rare is another one in response.

[sordel]

A declarative  statement is a very rare .

That one's going in my next book on semantic logic. 

[thalbergmad]

We wish you did

I do plan on creating a small website/forum for the CPS.

Thal

[ahinton]

This place would be greatly improved if the Sorabji lovers used their own forum and not this one.

There are quite a few problems with this statement, including but by no means limited to the following:
1. On what evidential basis and in what ways might it be so "improved" and according to whom?
2. What evidence do you think that you have that Sorabji lovers do not use both the forum dedicated to his work to which you have drawn attention and this one as well?
3. On what basis would you surmise that exclusivity of forum use might be  an "improvement"?
4. Why would you seek to single out Sorabji as distinct from any other individual piano composer in making your statement here?

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

https://www.sorabji-archive.co.uk/forum/index.php?sid=14f6751486db95055b718d4364158a91

[ahinton]

https://www.sorabji-archive.co.uk/forum/index.php?sid=14f6751486db95055b718d4364158a91

__________________________________________________________________________________

SPARE ME THE ADVERTS

Fortunately, you are not sparing us this particular advert; thank you!

Best,

Alistair

[pianoplayjl]

Before I joined this forum there were many experts who popped up now and then to give us invaluable advice but then disappear again. Those people are what I call real PS members unlike trash like me(regretfully) . I joined this forum because I wanted to obtain as much help as possible to improve my playing by searching threads, contributing and occasionally attempt to try and help others in the best way possible even though my advice is really bad.