neighbors complaining about the piano, management wanting to evict me

[noambenhamou]

The neighbors are complaining about my piano. I know for a fact that they can hear it but it's very faint. If they had soft background music from their stereo, they wouldn't hear my piano at all.
Quite hours are between 7am and 10pm.
I play about 2 hours per day. No earlier than 10am and no later than 9pm ever.
I have lived in apartments before where I could play at 3am if I wanted and nobody heard it, and nobody ever complained.
If I had a small crying baby, which produces 110Dbs vs the 90dbs my piano produces in F, would they be able to evict me?
I feel like I'm being harassed with the notices of noise complaints on my door, and calls from the front desk while I'm playing at 5pm after work.
The management is saying that they will evict me, and that the other neighbors are threatening to sue the building.
I feel bad that the building is not as sound proof as I feel it should be.
But I also feel it's my right to practice the piano if it's not during quite hours.

I'm in Portland, OR. USA just in case any of you know the real "rules".

Any input would help.
Noam

[keyboardclass]

You have no right to harass your neighbours.  Get a celeste rail or a DP (or a clavichord).  I have all three!

[djealnla]

You have no right to harass your neighbours.

Excuse me? What on earth is this supposed to mean?

[quantum]

This sounds like it is going to get dirty.  Maybe the best solution for all parties is for you to move to a more accommodating location.  If you really do want to put up a fight, a lawyer may be a good idea.  They would be more equipped to understand the rules and fine print involved.  

[littletune]

You have no right to harass your neighbours.  Get a celeste rail or a DP (or a clavichord).  I have all three!

       
It's supposed to be harassing if you play 2 hours a day at 5 pm??? Yeah right!  What about all the annoying babies crying and stupid cars and all those things? 

Well we kinda have the same problem with stupid neighbours... but they can't evict us cause it's our apartement. And besides the police said I have a right to play piano! But I don't play it as much as I did anyway  Just half an hour or an hour a day... (so maybe I'll get a digital piano so I can practice more, but I'll still practice on a real piano at least a little of course!) But now the neighbours haven't complained about the piano anymore, so that's cool Maybe you should ask the police or someone like that if you have the right to play... I hope things will get better! Good luck!!

[keyboardclass]

Excuse me? What on earth is this supposed to mean?

It means I live in a block that is practically silent 24/7 and I appreciate the fact.  I don't want to hear someone else's practicing.

[pianowolfi]

It means I live in a block that is practically silent 24/7 and I appreciate the fact.

practically silent 24/7 ? So you mean practically dead?

Yeah that's what people love: silence of death. And bossing others around. Not the pulsating, vibrating rhythm of life/silence/death/life/creativity. But then they go to a 120+ dB disco and heavy metal and death metal and trance and house and whatnot, dance, dance their soul out, on weekends. And take whatever drugs'n'drink they can afford with their $120,000+ salary...

I actually thought only Germans and Swiss are like that....stupid me...

[keyboardclass]

Well, I say practically silent 24/7 but there are the birds outside.

[pianowolfi]

Well, I say practically silent 24/7 but there are the birds outside.

But you don't dare to play on a real piano? Never get into a musical dialogue with the birds?
Well I have a digital too, the 50+ repeats I'll mostly do on that one. But that doesn't replace the sound of a true piano, ever.

[keyboardclass]

If I thought someone somewhere felt they were being harassed by it  - no.  I think threats of eviction could just be an indication...

[keyboardclass]

But you don't dare to play on a real piano? Never get into a musical dialogue with the birds?

Funny you should say that.  Elsewhere where I play the clavichord there's a canary.  It drowns it out!  I have to put the thing in the hall (canary that is).

[pianowolfi]

Funny you should say that.  Elsewhere where I play the clavichord there's a canary.  It drowns it out!  I have to put the thing in the hall (canary that is).

Haha for sure! That made me laugh! 

[richard black]

Damn, neighbours from hell....

Trouble is, if they want to make trouble, they'll make trouble - especially if there are a few of them. You may or may not have legal right on your side (that would, I guess, depend both on local laws and on the small print of your apartment rental agreement), but you are likely to find that any legal victory would be both expensive and pointless. I hate to sound unsympathetic - I'm actually highly sympathetic and glad not to be in your boots - but moving may just be the line of least resistance here.

[noambenhamou]

no to boast, but in the context of things I pay $5,800 / month rent to live here and I feel I should have the right to play my piano. I just bought a new Steinway D which will be coming within a month and I certainly plan on enjoying it.
For charging this much on rent, I don't blame the neighbors, but I do blame the apartment building for not taking acoustics and sound proofing into account especially when they designed the penthouse levels.
When I first moved here, I was hoping I'd be able to play at 2am if I wanted to without anyone hearing. My last apartment, I could play any time of the night and non of my neighbors even knew I owned a piano.

If I can't play the piano at 5pm, then what are quite hours for?
My piano (93 D) produces 95 Decibels at FF. A crying baby 110 Decibels. A dog barking 100 Decibels. There are plenties of families with babies, and PLENTY of dogs here. Would I get evicted if I had a little baby that cried during the day or Heaven forbid in the middle of the night?

I had two  violation notices on my door. Reported playing at 5pm monday and 10am tuesday. The other notice was the neighbors who complain about my piano playing told management I was smoking on my balcony on sunday night. This time I got those idiots! I was in NYC from wednesday to monday evening picking out my new Steinway at the factory. How could I be smoking on sunday??? They are seriously trying to bully me because i'm young.

I'm sending the dogs on management. And I'm going to bite hard! I got attorneys to get this in-front of a judge, false accusations of smoking, and harassment by management. This is not NYC. My neighbors have a choice. If they wanted complete silence, go buy or rent a house with a yard and a fence.

Apartment living has its advantages and disadvantages. It's a risk everyone makes including myself that I might have neighbors with dogs, crying babies, woodworking hobbies etc...

keyboardclass, although I want to get angry by your statement. Harassment must include INTENT. It is not my intent to annoy my neighbors. I would actually feel much more comfortable if no-one heard me practice. I find practicing a very private thing for myself and I would rather no-one hear it.

For those who sympathize with my situation, wish me luck. I am not stopping to play the piano! The neighbors will have to continue to endure the horrors of Rachmaninov.
I'll be expecting another violation notice by tomorrow morning followed by an eviction letter by monday morning. Then there will be court, trials and all the other fun things that make lawyers afford sail boats hahaha.

PS - I had my g/f meaure the Decibels in the hallway outside my door while I was playing FF on the piano. Between 59-63. Then I vacuumed inside while again testing outside my door, and about 61-64 Decibels. Perhaps I can get evicted for vacuuming as well? Better go buy a broom!!!

[keyboardclass]

Thanks for the definition of harass.  This is a space I'll be watching - your militancy fascinates!

[mussels_with_nutella]

hahaha noambenhamou, good luck!

However, i think you don't have to take this issue into courts. I don't know details about your situation, but I see your neighbours want fight. I have neighbours like these and I must say they will complain even if you painted your walls with antiacustic matter!

That's why I think the basis of the problem is, apart from the maliciousness of your neighbours, their stubborness. And this is what you should take advantage of.

If you manage to put their own requirements/words opposite them, their will stop as the situation is in accordance to their willing. It's the stupidity of stubborness. So my advice, which maybe you have already done, is to deal with them, maybe agree about your schedule of playing, or better the amount of hours and its range in the daily schedule.

You must be doing all what you have at your reach. That's why I think you should play with the "sordina" when you are learning your pieces and play normally when memorised for practising the dynamics (if your sordina is good), or maybe move your piano... I must repeat I don't know your situation in detail, so excuse me if some of the ideas sound stupid! And excuse me for the English, as i am not native speaker! Good luck with your problem!

[thalbergmad]

Get yourself a baby to drown out the noise of the piano. If it refuses to cry, just play some Schumann until it does.

Thal

[keyboardclass]

That's it, threaten to play Schumann!

[noambenhamou]

mussels_with_nutella, thank you for your comment.
Indeed I do play softly when learning notes. I doubt they can hear my piano while i'm at the early stages on a priece.

I have been living here for over 9 months now and was one of the first people to move into the top 3 penhouse levels since the building is new.

The neighbors below me, moved in 1st right after I moved. The complained imidiatly. I even tried making friends with them and gave them my phone number so they could tell me if they needed me to stop playing in some cases. They obviously abused it. Everytime I played, they asked me to stop. I put an area rug under the piano, and also coasters under the wheels. I also lined up my entire ceilings with acoustic panels because personally, there was too much echo here due to high concrete ceilings, lots of windows, and hardwood floors. I have no doubt the rug and coasters worked, but they still complained so I took out the rug and coasters because I didn't like the look of the rug, and they complained anyway!

Until now, the management position is that I can play the piano, and play whatever I like and it's nobody's business as long as I don't play during quite hours. They offered to the neighbors down below me to move to another unit. They refused.

I think in court we will also challenge the greediness of the management company. They knew I have and play piano. They should have informed every person who was interested in a unit around me that there is a guy who has a piano and plays it before anyone signed the lease.

I would expect such courtesy that an apartment would inform me in advance if my future neighbor had small loud children so I can truly decide if I want to sign a lease or not.

My neighbors have asked me multiple times in the past to not wear my shoes in my house because they can hear me walking!!!

Like you've said, they will complain no-matter what. They want absolute silence. I think that's what quiet hours are for.

I ran into my neighbors in the elevator yesterday. I told them I'm sueing the indigo and I agree that I don't think they should be able to hear the piano and I think the building is not soundproof at all. They were being so rude to me. The wife kept saying to her husband "we shouldn't talk to him". I kept talking though. I explained I don't have a problem with them, but they both rudly said "we have a problem with you!!!! the piano is driving us crazy"
Then the husband continued to repeate " a piano is a concert instrument, a piano is a concert instrument!!!"
Then he volanteared that he went to Juliard.
Wow, I said - "I didn't go to school" and he replied, "maybe you should" and walked off.

If he's so smart and went to juliard, I just don't understand his argument regarding a piano being a concert instrument. So is a violin, and even a human voice - opera. What's his point?

My conscience is very clear. I feel bad they can hear it but it's not my problem. I told the management that I have and play a grand piano before I signed the lease. They didn't mind at all.

[roseli]

Hello!

The problem with pianist, is that they understand noise in a different way that the other people. they think that the rest of the world likes to hear piano, and when someone tells them to stop, they are offended because, after all, they have the wright to play.

Sure, but the other people may work at night and need the they to sleep, my have to study, and need to focus on what they are doing, may be sick and need to rest... or the simple fact that: they don't have to hear stuff from other people houses.

I said this, and I'm very close minded to noise in apartments, because my apartment is almost made of cardboard, and when I moved in I and a pianist below me, that played piano all day, and sometimes at 1am until we called the police.

There is nothing more annoying then to have, a guy playing in a house that he already know that is not suitable to play any kind of instrument.

So, if you have a problem, your neighbours have a bigger one with you, if you want to play, get some keyboard with phones or move to the countryside!

If you wouldn't like to have party's in the house next door, or some metal playing at 10pm, don't do the same to other people.

The babies... well... it's a baby, and babies cry and it not their fault. But you are not a baby, and know that the piano is disturbing the other people. That's why they are so annoyed.

Dogs and smoking, I can't comment because we have different rules here in Portugal. Last year we had a problem with dogs, it was my building and the other 2 builds around. The owners weren't aware that the dogs must be trained to live inside a house.

So yeah... I think you are wrong, and don't have many chances of winning on the piano's subject.

Good luck for the defamation accusations, that's not cool.

Sorry for being so little comprehensive, but you are not being comprehensive too.

[noambenhamou]

roseli, I appreciate your comment. But this is not a cardboard building. There is about 3 feet of solid concrete between my neighbors below me and me. What they can "hear" is only if they are TRYING to hear it. Period. I respect quiet hours. I do not play past 9pm although quite hours start at 10pm.
The argument can go both ways. If YOU wanted quiet, perhaps you should move to the countryside. My father hates noise from neighbors and that's why he only lives in a house. I think he's smart.

[roseli]

Are you sure? have you ever been to their house with someone playing the piano?

There are many factors that plays with the sound of the house, for example the level of furnishing of the house, yours and from neighbours

Maybe the law is different in the US, but here, any noise that disturbs the neighbours during the day, can give a 500€ charge to the person.

The fact that you only play off the quiet hours, doesn't mean you are not disturbing.

I would like to know the full story on this. You are just like all the noisy neighbours I had and have. The actual ones think no one can hear their music, or hear them talk.

Last Monday I woke up with loud music at 8h40am, I passed the rest of the day with 4h of sleep. The guy have the wright to dress up with is fav music, but don't I have the wright to sleep during the morning? In my house? The one I bought? Where I live for 10y?

[keyboardclass]

roseli has a good point.  Could you get him to play your piano while you  listen down stairs?  Presumably that would also help with your legal argument against the company.

[noambenhamou]

The management have been at the neighbors while I played and said that it's very soft and almost undistingushable. The sound omitted from street noise is greater than that of my piano. Yet, they are bullied by threats from the neighbors to SUE management and in turn management finds it would be easier to evict me.

[keyboardclass]

I still think you should hear it for yourself - at least see if the guy really is from Julliard.

[littletune]

Why are people talking like piano is the only noise that people make during the day?   That's weird... here we have all sorts of noise during the day all the time... so it's sooo stupid to complain only about the piano!!! I think people who think everything should be quiet all the time should move somewhere on a deserted island or something!

And about the babies... so ok the babies don't know they're bothering people with their crying but their parents know that if they'll have babies they'll probably be crying and annoying people... so I guess people who wanna have babies shouldn't live in apartments!!!     How completely stupid!!!!!!!!!!!  

[roseli]

Why are people talking like piano is the only noise that people make during the day?   That's weird... here we have all sorts of noise during the day all the time... so it's sooo stupid to complain only about the piano!!! I think people who think everything should be quiet all the time should move somewhere on a deserted island or something!

And about the babies... so ok the babies don't know they're bothering people with their crying but their parents know that if they'll have babies they'll probably be crying and annoying people... so I guess people who wanna have babies shouldn't live in apartments!!!     How completely stupid!!!!!!!!!!!  

We are saying the piano makes noise, because the person that opened this tread is concerned that is playing will take him to court.

We all here know that there are plenty of other noises in the street and in the apartments.

A baby is not a piano, I don't understand how can you compare those things.

[littletune]

Ok... well I know a baby is not a piano  But I really don't know why I couldn't compare a baby and a piano... if it makes noise it makes noise!  And some people like to make babies and some people like to make music     
*Littletune thinks that was funny*    And then there are some people who don't like babies and some people who don't like music... people are different but they should learn how to get along anyway... and talk about things and find the best solution for everyone... 

[pianowolfi]

Hello!

The problem with pianist, is that they understand noise in a different way that the other people. they think that the rest of the world likes to hear piano, and when someone tells them to stop, they are offended because, after all, they have the wright to play.

What are you doing on a piano forum  

[roseli]

What are you doing on a piano forum  

I have a yamaha p-85 :p

[pianowolfi]

I have a yamaha p-85 :p

That's great for practice and keep fingers in shape. I too have a digital because I don't want to "harass/kill/terrorize/torture" ( ) my neighbours. But you can never develop any real relation to sound, tone, to the real piano sound, the magic of music, if you only practice on a digital. You have to transfer at least one hour per day onto the real piano what you have practiced.

[keyboardclass]

I have a yamaha p-85 :p

Damn, I only have a p-60!

[noambenhamou]

I prictice in bits throughout the day. Probably around 2 hours total per day. Sometimes a bit more, sometimes a bit less.
I can only imagine if I practiced scales 2 hours a day.

There is no difference between a baby crying and a piano except that baby crying cannot be controlled during quiet hours without ending up in jail.

[tb230]

I think you have to ask the building management to soundproof your floors. You write that you have hardwood floors and if there is not sufficient insulation between the floor and the concrete construction, sound will travel into your neighbour's apartment. Clearly, since they can hear you walk as well, there's something wrong (or insufficient) with the construction. Adding a soundproofing underlayer to the floor should be possible and not too expensive (just google it, there's lots of commercial products available). Also, your neighbours should support you in this claim, since it's made in their interest also. Best of luck!

[chopinaninoff]

I totally sympathize for you. I can't stand these type of people. Extremely ignorant and oblivious to other people. My piano teacher has a model B Steinway at her apartment, in NY, which is like a block away from The Dakota...Everyone loves her, all floors, all people. no one minds the music or the practicing. I wish you all luck in this incident. You have every right to play during the hours you are allowed. And if they are threatening to evict you...than leave. I take it you are wealthy? Not too many people can buy a Steinway D, which is a concert hall instrument, and pay 5 grand a month for rent.... It should be easy for you to find another place. This is YOUR home. You should not be surrounded by stupid fools who will always have negative thoughts about you every time you pass. If this does get to court I will testify for you!!!
Richard

[noambenhamou]

Thanks Richard
Kind regards,
Noam

[noambenhamou]

This morning I waited till about 10am to play the piano since I have a lesson this evening. Quiet hours end at 7am but I like to wait till 10am usually. NEVER earlier than 9am.
As soon as I start playing, the neighbor below me starts pounding his ceiling (my floor) with what sounded like a sledge hammer! Super loud, the entire apartment was shaking.

I called the cops but they are useless, they just didn't care. They said "you live in an apartment, your neighbors have the RIGHT to make noise" so I replied, so I have the right to play the piano then right??? And the officer said Yes.

I'm still irritated that there was no police report at least. I feel like "intent" has much to do with this. When I play the piano it is not my intent to harass or intimidate my neighbor. But when they banged on the ceiling, their intent was definatly to harass, intimidate, and annoy me.

I've always felt like the law was NEVER on my side.

[mussels_with_nutella]

In this period of time there is no consideration for intention but for facts and rigid laws and rules which are superior to Mankind, reaching the point that who forges those rules is not able to infringe them or, at least, interpretate.

However, I think in this case law is with you, noam. You are playing piano and they making noise with an "evil" purpose hahaha If there was a court (hope there wasn't) judge will definitely consider this evilness as it is a man who judges, so don't care about law but about the humanity of whoever judges.

Just think that smashing a hammer against the ceiling is tedious and knackering, while playing piano is relaxing. Relax yourself while they selfdestroy!!! hahaha

[chopinaninoff]

My suggestion.
Play Chopins Marche Funebre extremely loud whenever they do that. Or if you want to creep them out, play it at 2 in the morning, quietly and eerie..but just loud enough for them to hear it faintly.  or if you just want to piss them off really bad than I suggest Prokofiev 7th sonata. At least the police officer said you had the right to play...

[quantum]

Play Chopins Marche Funebre extremely loud whenever they do that. Or if you want to creep them out, play it at 2 in the morning, quietly and eerie..but just loud enough for them to hear it faintly.  or if you just want to piss them off really bad than I suggest Prokofiev 7th sonata. At least the police officer said you had the right to play...

Could also  repeat the rhythm of their banging on the piano.  Create tunes to it.  If their banging pattern works in consistent cells, you could start playing fugues to it.  It's a good composition / improv exercise you could ... practice 

[keyboardclass]

Of course it just shows, money doesn't buy happiness!

[mussels_with_nutella]

Could also  repeat the rhythm of their banging on the piano.  Create tunes to it.  If their banging pattern works in consistent cells, you could start playing fugues to it.  It's a good composition / improv exercise you could ... practice 

+10 

[noambenhamou]

Of course it just shows, money doesn't buy happiness!

I 100% agree with this. It does on the other hand buy natural light even in the dead of winter, and it also buys a steinway D. I did not inherit, I worked really hard for this, and I plan on enjoying

Thanks everyone for making light of this. Humor sometimes is the only, and best solution

[keyboardclass]

I'm poor and own 80 sq ft of south facing window in my living room (the north windows look out to Big Ben and the London eye).  Sometimes luck can serve you just as well as money!

[allthumbspiano]

It only depends on the rules of the apartments you are living in, not much else.  Their rules for noise can be more strict than actual laws but can't be more lenient.  If you aren't breaking any rules than there really isn't much that can be done.  Post a copy of the rules on your neighbors doors, if they can't stand it they should move to a place with rules to accommodate what they want.  If you get evicted you could file a lawsuit as long as you weren't breaking any rules.  If it were me I would play Justin Bieber on the radio all day long (during normal noise hours) as loud as possible till they couldn't take it anymore and decided that hearing me play piano for a very short time isn't so bad.

[floydcramerfan]

People who insist on silence irritate me.  It doesn't exist, people.  Even if it is what most people call quiet, you can still hear that repetitive B-flat of the fluorescent lightbulb or refrigerator or any other electronic appliance.  Now that's flippin' evil.  I'd definitely rather hear someone play the piano or even Justin Beeber over that crap.  That's probably why those neighbors are such straighties, they've been listening to that constant B-flat.

BTW, I used to live in a trailer park and the people living around me liked the piano.  One guy would even stand on his porch to listen whenever I played.  If I wanted to play late at night, though, I played the keyboard so I wouldn't blast everybody out.

[lostinidlewonder]

I wouldn't waste my time ringing police or going to court. Who are you going to take to court? The entire apartment block? Is it worth your money? I don't think so.

Just keep playing and let them complain, if you cannot deal with their wrath then you will have to move out. Your playing could be terrible in that case I sympathize with those living around you, I lived next door to a girl who was learning violin and every morning without failure before she went to school I had to listen to something that resembled a cat dying.

If they start accusing you of this and that I would just shrug my shoulders at them. Tell them to mention it to someone who cares, if the management listens to them and gives you violations I would tear the violations up and put it on the managers desk and tell him/her to get their facts right (if they only listen to one side of the story then they shouldn't be in management). Like you say you pay good money to rent and you have all the freedom to play that piano, just..... if you are no good or play pieces which are not relaxing to observe while practicing, please consider.

Read up on Tenancy Laws for your area.

[chopinaninoff]

I wouldn't waste my time ringing police or going to court. Who are you going to take to court? The entire apartment block? Is it worth your money? I don't think so.

Just keep playing and let them complain, if you cannot deal with their wrath then you will have to move out. Your playing could be terrible in that case I sympathize with those living around you, I lived next door to a girl who was learning violin and every morning without failure before she went to school I had to listen to something that resembled a cat dying.

If they start accusing you of this and that I would just shrug my shoulders at them. Tell them to mention it to someone who cares, if the management listens to them and gives you violations I would tear the violations up and put it on the managers desk and tell him/her to get their facts right (if they only listen to one side of the story then they shouldn't be in management). Like you say you pay good money to rent and you have all the freedom to play that piano, just..... if you are no good or play pieces which are not relaxing to observe while practicing, please consider.

Read up on Tenancy Laws for your area.

I highly doubt someone who would invest into a Steinway D is a bad player hahah  :

[roseli]

That's great for practice and keep fingers in shape. I too have a digital because I don't want to "harass/kill/terrorize/torture" ( ) my neighbours. But you can never develop any real relation to sound, tone, to the real piano sound, the magic of music, if you only practice on a digital. You have to transfer at least one hour per day onto the real piano what you have practiced.

Not everyone s rich to afford an acoustic, and since I live in an apartment, I don't see the point of having such instrument, I'm quite happy with what I have.

[pianowolfi]

Not everyone s rich to afford an acoustic, and since I live in an apartment, I don't see the point of having such instrument, I'm quite happy with what I have.

I hope there will come better times, where making music is not anymore treated like a crime, where music isn't anymore treated like either opium for the masses (pop) or an elitist hobby of rich people (classical). And, especially, where music isn't treated any longer from a mainly or only capitalist view. Yes I admit I was exaggerating with my "one hour on a real piano" but nevertheless, I can at least say that I had the luck of having grown up with the real sound of real instruments, so I can better deal with the restraints of digital ones. I am afraid that the new generations will lose all real contact to real music. Already now it's really hard to convince some people of the value of a real piano. They rather spend thousands of $ on the most fancy cars/TV's, game stations/iPhones etc... or on jetting around and living in luxury hotels for weeks, during every school vacation.