Hate reading music, what's the first step I can take to get around this?

[eartraininghq]

How do you improve past the basics I think that is more important. Anyone can learn the basics in many fashions but how you develop from there is important and not something you can learn from any single program.

Of course it's important to work out how to develop beyond the basics, but that didn't appear to be the question of the original poster. His post said:

I do not want to be a classic music performer or write scores for movies. I simply want to have enough know-how in order to compose my own tunes in my head and some more know-how to polish them up or make them more interesting.

Can you list some things I should learn in what order? Chords, scales, arpeggios? Yes ill read whatever I have to in order to memorize them but after that I'm done!

Thanks.

I merely made some suggestions that I felt might help him to move in the direction he appears to be interested in.

This is overly optimistic as to how easy playing by ear is. You may be able to do basic ear work easily but as it gets more advanced simple formula that work for beginner stuff will not suffice. Go try to listen to Kasputin and play one of his pieces by ear.

Perhaps I should have been more clear about this. Reading music is an essential part of classical music. I doubt that the style could have developed the way that it has without the notation system that we have, and a lot of the complex pieces would be impossible for most of us to play by ear.

However, I'm not being optimistic about how easy it is at all. If the original poster had said that he wanted to play fast, complex, chromatic music without reading, then it would be very difficult. But he specifically said that he doesn't want to be a classical performer.

It's possible to learn to play any style of music by ear, quite easily. Obviously, when it gets very fast and chromatic, there's a lot more that you have to learn, but it's still not entirely impossible, although for most of us it would take a number of years of work.

Playing by ear is merely a different approach to music, which unsurprisingly requires different approaches to learning.

I'm aware that it's commonly thought that playing by ear is impossible for us "mere mortals" but that's a concept that we're trying to change at Ear Training HQ. The problem isn't with us, it's just with the approaches that a lot of people have tried. When you approach it in the right way, i've always found that people see results quite quickly.

[lostinidlewonder]

Of course it's important to work out how to develop beyond the basics, but that didn't appear to be the question of the original poster.

What he asked for is asking for help beyond the basics or have you forgotten what the basics of ear training are?

I merely made some suggestions that I felt might help him to move in the direction he appears to be interested in.

You give basic ideas but no idea how to grow from there. I could say to you go learn some scales and that will help you, but if I don't give any rhythmic training then its useless. Notes on their own don't do much.

.... a lot of the complex pieces would be impossible for most of us to play by ear.

However, I'm not being optimistic about how easy it is at all. If the original poster had said that he wanted to play fast, complex, chromatic music without reading, then it would be very difficult. But he specifically said that he doesn't want to be a classical performer.

At least you admit not everything can be done by ear, but certainly you can't generalize that all challenging classical music is fast, complex or chromatic. If your ear training cannot deal with these three issues then it is certainly not going to be able to allow the student to grow very far.

It's possible to learn to play any style of music by ear, quite easily. Obviously, when it gets very fast and chromatic, there's a lot more that you have to learn, but it's still not entirely impossible, although for most of us it would take a number of years of work.

Playing by ear is merely a different approach to music, which unsurprisingly requires different approaches to learning.

But you have also admitted that some pieces might take a number of years of work if attempted by ear. Why bother with such inefficient methods? Improving your reading skills will allow you to do this and more simultaneously, coupling that with good ear training will increase the rate furthermore.

I'm aware that it's commonly thought that playing by ear is impossible for us "mere mortals" but that's a concept that we're trying to change at Ear Training HQ. The problem isn't with us, it's just with the approaches that a lot of people have tried. When you approach it in the right way, i've always found that people see results quite quickly.

You are still avoiding my clear point, your ear training will never be enough to deal with more advanced music, if you claim you can learn all of Kasputin's music for example via ear then you are yet to demonstrate that. You are being too optimistic over the power playing by ear has and its use by all students at all levels. Of course you are trying to sell a product so why wouldn't you have this optimism!

[eartraininghq]

lostindiewonder:

I felt that the advice I gave the OP was relevant. If he wants to use it he can, if he doesn't find it helpful then that's also fine, and if he wants to find ways to extend it he can ask.

I would certainly say that all technically challenging music has some level of complexity to it, otherwise what would make it challenging  , however obviously there is a lot of challenging music that is neither fast nor chromatic. My point was more to say that chromaticism and fast tempos are two features that make a piece more difficult to learn by ear.

My stance, in regards to ear training is this:

Anyone can develop their ear, to easily recognise simple music so they can play it by ear.

I think this is essential to developing a high level of musicianship.

Once your ear reaches this point, you'll often find that it will improve alongside your technique.

So as you either learn pieces from written music or transcribe them from recordings, your ear will learn the phrases/harmonic structures etc.

This will make it much easier to understand similar music aurally, so you can rely less on the music on the page.

I think they go hand in hand for most people, but that doesn't mean the the OP has to stick with just reading, and I think that ear training is ignored by far too many musicians.

In regards to your point, I feel that it's untrue. With effective ear training, anyone can deal with advanced music by ear.

I haven't listened to Kapustin before, although I looked him up and even bought a CD after you mentioned him. I really like his music.

Could I play his music by ear from one listen? No.

Could I work out the majority of his work? Yes.

Would it take me a while? Yes - I'd probably have to slow some sections down, just as anyone would when sightreading it.

The pieces that I've listened to so far use a lot of large intervals in the melodies, which is something I don't focus on a lot, and there are some sections that would get me into trouble because I'm not a very good piano player (the saxophone is my primary interest), so they use piano technique that I'm unfamiliar with.

Now ask me if I could work out John Coltrane or Michael Brecker by ear and it's a different story. But they play in the styles that I've learned, so of course I can learn them more easily. 

Anyway, I was just trying to help. I guess I've irritated you because I plugged my product? which is fair enough.

And to the OP or anyone else who wants more freedom to get away from sheet music: start singing!

I forgot to mention that originally. If you can sing something, you can hear it in your hear. So sing everything you hear. Soon you'll start combining all the musical ideas that you sing in your head, and some original ideas that you can call your own will start coming out!

[allthumbspiano]

I love playing piano but I hate moving my fingers, what is the first step I can take to get around this?

[mcdiddy1]

I love playing piano but I hate moving my fingers, what is the first step I can take to get around this?

Lol ...thats funny..kind of harsh....well it sort of possible if you imagine yourself playing ..lol

[lostinidlewonder]

... if he wants to find ways to extend it he can ask.

I feel he did ask for extensions such as: to have enough know-how in order to compose my own tunes in my head and some more know-how to polish them up or make them more interesting.

The creative path of knowing how to improvise fill ins for your music is not something done solely by ear. It is something that you need to experience and know you are observing when experiencing it, an intellectual approach to guide your creative efforts. So to start answering this question appropriately one would have to know what kind of rhythms the OP is interested in. We can then start listing off all the rhythmic styles there are and ensuring that he knows of all the different types there are. But I have no real interest to do this myself because 1) it would take a deal of one on one time to work out a personalized approach. 2) He is not a paying student, the type which I would devote my private time in searching for this.

The basics of ear training can be approached in many ways, however if one wants to then start extending their skills into compositions/improvisation or being able to decorate standard works with freedom, there is no single method that will help you from beginning to end, the approach simply must be personalized for the individual. And I do not know of composers who do not write their music down in some form or another. So I would encourage the OP to develop a writing style that suits them as well. Fake Books for instance are a favorite amongst many "jazz" musicians who dislike reading standard sheet music. If you refuse to do any reading or writing of music in any form at all, then I believe this limits how much you can actually share you music and develop it. Although with recordings these days it might be fine to capture your music this way, although inaccessible to others who might be interested to learn your music and do not want to do so by ear (which constitutes the greater amount of musicians).

My point was more to say that chromaticism and fast tempos are two features that make a piece more difficult to learn by ear.

These are hardly any more difficult than other elements you may find in music, are you saying that ear training can solve everything but these two issues? There are certainly more issues where ear training is challenged a great deal more so than sight reading which doesn't put much confidence in ear training standing on its own. This also goes to say that sight reading without any concept of listening to what you are doing is also no good, the both work hand in hand for the efficient learner. Good sight readers know when there are passages that they can listen to more closely and it solves what type of notes they will read next, it is almost like precognition, knowing what will come before it comes because the sound you are hearing encourages it to be (this is mostly an experience based skill, playing many pieces allows you to understand how music is generally written and thus be able to infer where what music lead towards without having to actually read the notes, some people might call it "filling in the blanks" yourself.)

With multiple sight reading attempts certain things become automatically learned, where with relying on ear training you may need to take conscious attention to many more instances to begin with, quite strenuous. The beginning stages of ear training is most difficult when experiencing issues you have not deal with before, where sight reading allows you to deal with unfarmiliar issues with more confidence since you have the issue layed out in front of you in the score, where those who work via ear only have what they are observing in a recording or in their heads which have no real mathematical proof such as sheet music to reference. But this is only talking about music which has sheet music written for it, certainly there are plenty of jazz works which only exist in Fake Book form, but I have already explained how you would work out how to develop this in my first paragraph.  

Sight readers do not find challenging speed of notes because through the score they learn how to deal with the issue in an intelligent manner. Learning everything by ear is extremely difficult especially when you admit yourself even that you have to slow complicated music down to learn it. Now this would require that you are able to hear the piece in slow motion when it is being played at normal tempo, unless you use tools to slow down a recording. This method might seem attractive to learn your music, but it really is slowing your learning efficiency down.

With sight reading you can tackle multiple sections of music and they do not even need to be connected to be practiced. You can't do this very effectively when you play by ear, it is too confusing. I know this from my own experience predominantly learning music via ear in my early years of piano playing. I could learn almost anything at my level by ear, but I couldn't skip around the place and play random passages without some difficulty, they all had to be connected to one another in sequence. This is a weakness that those playing by ear have and an advantage that sight readers have over them. Sight readers can more effectively learn the music because they can absorb multiple regions at a time and be able to understand each part effectively even though its sound might be disjoint from one another. We can constantly recheck if what we are playing is the right notes and fingering where those who play via ear must trust that the memory that they have inside them is accurate, they have no other source to check if what they are doing is correct, over many years this may cause unintentional changes to memorized music. Unless you listen to your favorite recording again and again to check, but how slow an ineffective is that? Why not just look at the score find the passage in seconds, check it and be done with it!

Anyone can develop their ear, to easily recognise simple music so they can play it by ear.

I agree! The keyword is simple music however, and simple is defined differently for the individual but learing solely via ear is something that should be true if the piece is indeed simple.

...as you either learn pieces from written music or transcribe them from recordings, your ear will learn the phrases/harmonic structures etc.

This will make it much easier to understand similar music aurally, so you can rely less on the music on the page.

Rely less yes, but you still require to use your sight reading skills to play the music. Your vision needs to be able to identify what type of form you are playing before you play it, as I said you can have some future telling ability if you know a lot of pieces because the style of music generally goes the same way, but you still are using the sheet music and sight reading it, you are just reading it more efficiently and filling in the blanks more effectively and accurately. This doesn't mean that you are predominantly playing by ear however, you are playing via your fingering/technique training AND ear training when you sight a score with mastery.

I think they go hand in hand for most people, but that doesn't mean the the OP has to stick with just reading, and I think that ear training is ignored by far too many musicians.

I would have to disagree with you and if you went to any reputable music univeristy or teacher they will crucify you for that comment

In regards to your point, I feel that it's untrue. With effective ear training, anyone can deal with advanced music by ear.

What do you mean by "anyone can deal with advanced music by ear"? Even with good ear training sometimes although you could learn a passage without reading the score if you try it by ear, it would take you a great deal longer by comparison to sighting it on a score and learning it the normal way. So you may be able to deal with it solely via your ear but it is an inefficient method.

I haven't listened to Kapustin before, although I looked him up and even bought a CD after you mentioned him. I really like his music.

He is really a rare gem!

Could I play his music by ear from one listen? No.

I doubt any human could ever achieve that however to meet a musician who could sight read his music at tempo on first attempt (it would certainly surprise me to the extreme if it where a difficult example) is not unfathomable.

Could I work out the majority of his work? Yes.

Define "majority" of the work? If you can absorb 10% of a complicated Kasputin via ear on first hearing and play the exact notes and rhythm on the piano you are quite talented, if you are saying more than that I am starting to not believe you unless you have a huge amount of past experience with playing jazz piano which you do not. If you are just talking about being able to replay the piece in your head after first listening, then this isn't too crazy of an idea and something I am sure many of us have experienced in some form or another. But then to transfer the sound of the mind to the piano, now that is another question. The technique to do that is quite difficult and not something I have even been able to simply explain in words since it depends on the work you are dealing with. And we are taking about a complicated work, we certainly can do this with easier works.

Would it take me a while? Yes - I'd probably have to slow some sections down, just as anyone would when sight reading it

How long is a while? Although with sight reading we slow things down we can bring it up to speed faster and more naturally than doing it completely via ear. It is very difficult to play large sections via ear slowly, you usually can only focus on smaller parts, however with sight reading you can control more parts without the need to be able to control it via the ear. However like I said both ear and sight should work together, sight guides the ear to understand more of what it is listening to, the ear helps the sight to appreciate (both enjoyment and validation that what you are doing is correct) what it is reading and also anticipate the future.

The pieces that I've listened to so far use a lot of large intervals in the melodies, which is something I don't focus on a lot, and there are some sections that would get me into trouble because I'm not a very good piano player (the saxophone is my primary interest), so they use piano technique that I'm unfamiliar with.

Piano we can play a hell of a lot more notes than the sax simultaneously. Not to say that the piano is more difficult of an instrument or anything, but certainly reading piano music is much more complicated. Thus relying on ear training for piano is much more difficult than what it is for instruments that predominantly only deal with one note at a time. That is not to say it isn't done I have met many non-classical pianists who can't read music and play everything by ear. All of them relay to me the type of pieces they learned to get to where they are and each of them define a clear journey of interest based on rhythmic styles.

[faa2010]

What it works in me is to listen first to the piece, the times I need, then when I look for the score, becoming easier the reading because one can have the idea of how should it be sounding.

[floydcramerfan]

Wow, all this talk of sight reading, not very effective if you read braille.  With braille you basically have to memorize it before you play it, bit by bit.  I'm sticking with playing by ear, thanks.

[lostinidlewonder]

Wow, all this talk of sight reading, not very effective if you read braille.  With braille you basically have to memorize it before you play it, bit by bit.  I'm sticking with playing by ear, thanks.

Good for you, we are fortunate that most people who play piano are not blind.