Hate reading music, what's the first step I can take to get around this?

[nickmeads]

Let's get straight to the point. I HATE reading music. I know how, but the more I have to follow this "standard" method for learning the more I put my keyboard back in my closet. Its discouraged me from playing it for 3 months now.

I do not want to be a classic music performer or write scores for movies. I simply want to have enough know-how in order to compose my own tunes in my head and some more know-how to polish them up or make them more interesting.

Can you list some things I should learn in what order? Chords, scales, arpeggios? Yes ill read whatever I have to in order to memorize them but after that I'm done!

Thanks.

[gerryjay]

Dear Nick,
the key to read is listen. So, I'll suggest a procedure. Choose a new piece, best if is something you can manage (in terms of technique). Don't even look at the score, just listen to the music. As many different recordings as you can, for at least a couple of weeks.

I mean, everyday, several times a day.

In the meantime, try to sing it, with and without the recording. Try to remember it in its entirety while away from any recording source. Divide the piece in parts to make things easier. Sing each part out of order. If the piece has an accompaniment, do the same for that part. If have a countermelody, do it as well.

Do you get the idea? You must know by heart the music as much as you can. THEN, get the score and try to read it. Tell me the results.

Best regards,
Jay.

[gerryjay]

Post scripts never end...

Of course, after doing that a thousand times, you can just read the score without a flaw, provided the technicalities won't kill you beforehand.

[nickmeads]

No no I want to learn how to play music without having to read. Im looking for guidance to an alternate path.

[gerryjay]

The path to read and to not read is the same. Don't learn to read, after it, is a shame, imho. Basically, the score only have the information that already is in your ears. I see your problem now: you read the score and you hear nothing, so you can't figure out what to play, isn't it?

Anyway, if you really don't want to read, if it is a matter of principles or the like, just do exactly what I wrote before, and skip the score: listen, listen, listen, and then sit on the piano and try. With a bit of ingenuity and lots of hard work, in a couple of years you will be ready to play whatever you want.

Of course, the classical repertory after a certain level of complexity will be unavailable, but there are tons of other cool stuff to learn. Enjoy!

[keyboardclass]

If you want to write music you need to be able to read other's writing.  If you really are interested  in composing you'll be champing at the bit to read what others have written. 

[ongaku_oniko]

I HATE working. I just want a billion dollars.

Dude, are you freaking serious? Do you know how hard it is to be able to write down melodies and embellish them? I can read music scores perfectly, learned musical theory for a few years and I still can't do it.

Wanting to achieve without hardwork is not only lazy but just... seriously, if you want to put your keyboard back to your closet, feel free, the piano community doesn't need someone like you.

[keyboardclass]

Could you be an actor if you were illiterate?  I suppose.  Would you be of any use to anyone?  Doubt it.

[pianowolfi]

You are not the only one old chap. I notice such a tendency among students since years. I'd go with Keyboardclass. How'd you even survive walking on the streets in a city if you were illiterate? Why should it be different in music?
Most people who hate music reading actually never tried to practice it seriously.

[fleetfingers]

Are you trying to read things that are too difficult? Start with easy pieces and gradually work your way up. I used to hate it, too. The better you get at it, the more you will enjoy it. Being able to pick up a piece of music and read it on the spot is empowering and fulfilling. Just as it is to read a book. It's worth it to learn.

That being said, to play by ear you'll need to learn chords and progressions. Familiarize yourself with the circle of fifths. Spend lots of time practicing and trying different things. Learn how to build a scale and how to construct chords from a scale, then how to do inversions of the chords. If you figure out the structure, you won't have to read the notes of each chord and memorize it. There are formulas you can learn that will help you out.

I know people who can't read or write music. However, they compose music and play it on the keyboard while their computer software notates it for them. It doesn't usually notate everything correctly, though, so it's hard for others to read. If that's what you want to do, then do it. Many here have suggested you learn to read, but you don't have to if that is not your goal. Good luck!

[nickmeads]

If you want to write music you need to be able to read other's writing.

I never said I wanted to write music per se, I just need to get the tunes in my head out onto the keys for my own recordings.

Could you be an actor if you were illiterate?  I suppose.  Would you be of any use to anyone?  Doubt it.

Never said I couldn't read music. I said I hate doing it after this much time.

I HATE working. I just want a billion dollars.

Dude, are you freaking serious? Do you know how hard it is to be able to write down melodies and embellish them? I can read music scores perfectly, learned musical theory for a few years and I still can't do it.

Wanting to achieve without hardwork is not only lazy but just... seriously, if you want to put your keyboard back to your closet, feel free, the piano community doesn't need someone like you.

First of all, a billion dollars is a huge reach in comparison to the level of proficiency I wish to reach without reading. As stated, I do not wish to write music for others or become a legendary performer (we'll equate that to a billion dollars worth of working). Yes, "dude", I am freaking serious. I am not interested in writing down music scores, all I wish to achieve is the ability to improv solos from my mind into my own recordings/songs. And second of all, achieve without hardwork? Where did I ever say im not willing to work hard? I said I need an alternate path. I am not "lazy", you have no idea how long I've been reading music or how hard I've worked so far. I am also not interested in your "piano community" sugar cookies club, if you have this much of a problem with my questions go make better use of your life elsewhere?

You're being emotional as hell for someone who cant read simple english and bashing on me for wanting a method around reading music.

@everyone else, thank you for your advice, it's very helpful so far.

[keyboardclass]

Never said I couldn't read music. I said I hate doing it after this much time. Take your useless words of wisdom somewhere else.

Oh dear, someone's cage got rattled - and cage is as good a metaphor as any for those without good reading skills.  If you're not at liberty to play a sheet given you or browse through a composers oevre to check him out your horizons are limited for sure.   Useless is how I'd describe the nonreader!

[nyiregyhazi]

Yes, "dude", I am freaking serious. I am not interested in writing down music scores, all I wish to achieve is the ability to improv solos from my mind into my own recordings/songs.

If you're not among those who are talented enough to do this by ear, I'm afraid your only option is to learn to read better. Despite what many claim, playing by ear is what's elitist- not reading. Anyone can learn to read well, with perseverance. To flourish by ear takes a lot of talent that not everyone has. That you say you "hate" reading shows that your reading just isn't good enough- whether you're willing to admit it to yourself or not. Fluent readers of written words don't "hate" the process of deciphering books full of useful information. If they depend on the information, they make damn sure that the process of deciphering words and letters has been mastered until effortless. If reading is second nature there's nothing to hate.

If you hate the process of reading music and you do not have the sheer level of talent to proceed by ear, you have two choices. Either learn to read better or stay at your current level. Sorry if that's not what you're looking to hear, but it's true.

[silph]

whoa, i feel sorry for nickmeads!

the poor person was just asking for an alternate path to learning how to play piano without having to read music, but then s/he's told that s/he's not a worthy member of the piano community for wanting to learn this way (and called lazy and not hardworking). and right after that post (ie which makes posts following sound harsher than they perhaps were meant to be), nickmeads is told that what he wants to do is like being an actor who hates reading scripts. what keyboardclass was seemed to mean to me, though, was that keyboard class feels it's pretty impossible to play piano without reading music.. but given the harsh posts before, i can understand why nickmeads took it badly.

nickmeads, i hear you saying that you really hate reading music, and you were wondering if there was a different way to learn playing. i hear you say that it's discouraged you in the past, and so i can understand you wondering if there's a different way to learn. i also remember you saying that your goals are a little different than most others (ie writing bits of music for your own sake, rather than playing classical pieces), and personally, i totally respect those different goals -- i personally can imagine someone not being able to play classical music and not having interest in reading it, but still being able to pick out basic chord progressions from a pop song (for example) and recreating them at their own piano.

i'm actually surprised by the negative response you're getting. i'm surprised because isn't it common in some American cultures to not be able to read sheet music, but still know how to play fiddle/banjo/guitar? if that's possible, i wouldn't be surprised if piano could be learned by ear, too?



nyiregyhazi's post makes me think. s/he seems to feel that reading is a common base that you need if you want to learn; and what's more, s/he feels that a person who hates reading books is merely not fluent enough, but if they wanted to learn badly enough, they would learn to read better (and so too, a person who wants to learn piano needs to do it through reading music, and if they hate reading music, it's only because they haven't become fluent enough).

` i hope that this idea isn't correct. i, personally, am very poor at reading books, even when i like the information. audiobooks and documentaries do for me in a more accessible way what books don't.

` i can't help but wonder if there are methods/systems out there, which don't use reading music as such a core element in the method. i don't know... maybe some course heavy on ear training, teaching you to be fluent at picking out chord progressions and common melodic patterns? (in fact, i wonder if that's exactly the kind of guidance that nickmeads was looking for, from this community).
` i used to know of an acquaintence who didn't read much music, but learned through a place (NOT a conservatory) that emphasized ear training. he was able to listen to a song once and repeat most of it. granted, he had a natural talent, but his training really emphasized ear training and learning common patterns used in popular music.


nickmeads, i'm sorry that the responses you've gotten have been largely unempathic. i want to encourage you to keep looking, though. i an sympathetic, becuase i, too, am someone who tends to prefer learning in ways that aren't very common. perhaps these members are correct in that reading music THE *primary* skill you need for playing piano, but somehow i am really doubting it.


i had to chime in, though, because i felt sorry for nickmeads. he was hoping for people with more experience to see his own unique goals, and to possibly help him out; but then he gets really negative responses that shoot down his goals. i can't help but wonder if that's more because of the typical training (ie through reading music) that most members here have gotten, rather than nickmead's actual goals being unfeasible.

[nyiregyhazi]

nyiregyhazi's post makes me think. s/he seems to feel that reading is a common base that you need if you want to learn; and what's more, s/he feels that a person who hates reading books is merely not fluent enough, but if they wanted to learn badly enough, they would learn to read better (and so too, a person who wants to learn piano needs to do it through reading music, and if they hate reading music, it's only because they haven't become fluent enough).

Indeed. Plenty of people with dyslexia struggle to read easily. Do they say "I hate reading" and decide to only learn from a television set? Perhaps some do sadly, but a great many choose to fight against such a disadvantage and make an effort. To say "I hate reading" is simply a bad attitude to come at it with. Do people think music notation was designed to confuse people and hinder them? It is there to HELP- just like written word. Is the written word some kind of elitist device- or is it exactly the thing has enabled education of wider masses? Music notation is exactly the same thing. Anyone who's just going to turn their nose up at it, should be made aware that they are turning their nose up at what is one of the single most beneficial sources of learning. Those who flourished by ear are usually extremely talented to start with. If the poster wants to take the hard way around then that's up to him. If he's hoping for a shortcut, he ought to realise that notated scores ARE the finest shortcut to learning available.

[Derek]

Acquiring discipline is definitely harder for some than for others. I couldn't stand piano lessons when I was a kid. I tried lessons at 7, 11, and 15 and quit all of them. Then at 17 I got guitar lessons and that changed things for me because it was very practical and straightforward...just start learning a scale or two and mess around. Turns out that works for piano too---have you tried this? Of course, you can take the "I hate practice" thing too far and never start learning anything--and I'm afraid there's no advice for that other than..in order to do something you have to start doing it...and nobody can force you or give you a tip for that, I'm afraid.

If you do pick scale and and learn it on the piano...you might enjoy harmonic minor, it sounds cooler than majorwhen you're just starting out, I think. And, if you don't require your first efforts to be really complex, then it'll never feel like work. Well...good luck.

BTW--I didn't learn to read music til later. So yes, it is quite possible to learn to play and create music without ever reading a note.

[keyboardclass]

Glenn Gould said he could teach everything you need to know about playing the piano in 30 minutes.  I agree - the rest is all about how to read music!

[silph]

(offtopic)
keyboardclass... maybe i would for a half hour lesson with glenn gould, if i could get access to him, lol. i wonder what he meant by that statement.

--------------
(on-topic)

@nickmeads,
i wonder if one of the posts on a thread i started might be relevant for you?
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=41587.msg460125#msg460125
the bullet points in particular made me think of you. it seems that the poster in this thread did the following things:
- learn basic music theory (eg "what is a chord?")
- try imitating accompagniment in the left hand, and melody in the right hand, of music that is simple enough to get your ear around
- learned what the pentatonic scale is, and what the circle of fifths is (to modulate), and used this to improvise

also a book that i came across came to mind, if you can find it: it's called "how to play piano despite years of lessons" by ward cannel and fred marx. there is not much music notation in it (as far as i read, which is about half); it teaches you what chords are, from simple to more advanced onces, and gives you a basic way to play a song if you have the chords written out. it seems to be written especially for people who don't want to go the traditional piano route. maybe this book might be to your taste?

[keyboardclass]

(offtopic)
keyboardclass... maybe i would for a half hour lesson with glenn gould, if i could get access to him, lol. i wonder what he meant by that statement.

He meant the physical aspect of playing can be taught in 30 minutes (but may well take some a life time to learn).

[go12_3]

From my perspective, to hate reading music isn't going to help you at all.
Just use your gift of listening to the notes and trying to comprehend what is
being played upon the keyboard.  It's not going to be instantaneous. 

[piano_channeller]

Option 1:
Persevere with the reading.

Option 2:
Learn by ear.

Option 3:
Do both 1 and 2. My preference.

(Putting the piano away for 3 months is not an option however)

It takes time but, as nyiregyhazi said reading, IS the shortcut. A big catalyst for it catching on was because in the 11th it allowed the singers at the cathedral in Arezzo, under Guido, to learn the Church's entire plainchant repertoire in 2 years instead of 10 years, which had previously been the case when plainchant was learned by ear. Sorry for the musicology lecture but I'm really into my plainchant at the moment. 

As for learning by ear it's really just a case of getting the keyboard out and messing around until you like what you hear. Listen to the music you like and then try to re-create it on the piano.

Can you list some things I should learn in what order? Chords, scales, arpeggios? Yes ill read whatever I have to in order to memorize them but after that I'm done!

Yes learn these things, any order. [sigh]

[nickmeads]

Oh dear, someone's cage got rattled - and cage is as good a metaphor as any for those without good reading skills.  If you're not at liberty to play a sheet given you or browse through a composers oevre to check him out your horizons are limited for sure.   Useless is how I'd describe the nonreader!

I want an alternate path. I didn't ask you or anyone else here to convince me with your negative comments to go on your traditional path just because you can't think of anything.

That you say you "hate" reading shows that your reading just isn't good enough

With this logic, a neurosurgeon who hates using proper cutting techniques to open up the human scalp (even though he has to) clearly isn't good enough to right? Even after he's had years of experience? You're just talking out of your hole. You have no idea how good or not good enough I am. Stick to the topic or don't post at all please.

whoa, i feel sorry for nickmeads!

the poor person was just asking for an alternate path to learning how to play piano without having to read music, but then s/he's told that s/he's not a worthy member of the piano community for wanting to learn this way (and called lazy and not hardworking). and right after that post (ie which makes posts following sound harsher than they perhaps were meant to be), nickmeads is told that what he wants to do is like being an actor who hates reading scripts. what keyboardclass was seemed to mean to me, though, was that keyboard class feels it's pretty impossible to play piano without reading music.. but given the harsh posts before, i can understand why nickmeads took it badly.

nickmeads, i hear you saying that you really hate reading music, and you were wondering if there was a different way to learn playing. i hear you say that it's discouraged you in the past, and so i can understand you wondering if there's a different way to learn. i also remember you saying that your goals are a little different than most others (ie writing bits of music for your own sake, rather than playing classical pieces), and personally, i totally respect those different goals -- i personally can imagine someone not being able to play classical music and not having interest in reading it, but still being able to pick out basic chord progressions from a pop song (for example) and recreating them at their own piano.

i'm actually surprised by the negative response you're getting. i'm surprised because isn't it common in some American cultures to not be able to read sheet music, but still know how to play fiddle/banjo/guitar? if that's possible, i wouldn't be surprised if piano could be learned by ear, too?



nyiregyhazi's post makes me think. s/he seems to feel that reading is a common base that you need if you want to learn; and what's more, s/he feels that a person who hates reading books is merely not fluent enough, but if they wanted to learn badly enough, they would learn to read better (and so too, a person who wants to learn piano needs to do it through reading music, and if they hate reading music, it's only because they haven't become fluent enough).

` i hope that this idea isn't correct. i, personally, am very poor at reading books, even when i like the information. audiobooks and documentaries do for me in a more accessible way what books don't.

` i can't help but wonder if there are methods/systems out there, which don't use reading music as such a core element in the method. i don't know... maybe some course heavy on ear training, teaching you to be fluent at picking out chord progressions and common melodic patterns? (in fact, i wonder if that's exactly the kind of guidance that nickmeads was looking for, from this community).
` i used to know of an acquaintence who didn't read much music, but learned through a place (NOT a conservatory) that emphasized ear training. he was able to listen to a song once and repeat most of it. granted, he had a natural talent, but his training really emphasized ear training and learning common patterns used in popular music.


nickmeads, i'm sorry that the responses you've gotten have been largely unempathic. i want to encourage you to keep looking, though. i an sympathetic, becuase i, too, am someone who tends to prefer learning in ways that aren't very common. perhaps these members are correct in that reading music THE *primary* skill you need for playing piano, but somehow i am really doubting it.


i had to chime in, though, because i felt sorry for nickmeads. he was hoping for people with more experience to see his own unique goals, and to possibly help him out; but then he gets really negative responses that shoot down his goals. i can't help but wonder if that's more because of the typical training (ie through reading music) that most members here have gotten, rather than nickmead's actual goals being unfeasible.

Exactly, thank you for understanding. Asking for an alternate route scares half the people on here just cause they aren't experienced enough to come up with a different answer.

I say if you don't know how to help, don't post in this thread. As bad as it may itch to get your opinion in, it really isn't helping. I don't want 100 people to convince me to read more music after I just said I hate it. No one said reading isn't helpful and isn't a great method. After all this time DOING IT, It's just not for me. If my piano teacher couldn't teach me the way I wanted, I'd get rid of him. I know how to read music, have so for a while, and still hate it. I never said it was hard, I'm just tired of it because it's not leading me to the goal I wish to achieve.

[silph]

i didn't ask but i meant to, 'cause i'm curious:
do you have any feelings about ear training programs? i'm assuming they exist... and my guess is that they are exactly part of what may help you achieve what you're going after?

in honesty, so many guitarist have no idea how to read music, but yet they can copy chords by ear from a song they hear... so i still suspect strongly that it should be possible with piano, too?

[soitainly]

 Nickmeads, you are starting to sound defensive if not downright combative. People are trying to give you sound advice. You can learn music by ear but it is a lot of work. I grew up playing rock music on guitar so reading wasn't an option, there was no music available that showed what the players were doing. You sat down with a record player and just figured it out, or if you were really lucky some one who had figured it out could show you. It was a painstaking process, though with years of practice I got decent at figuring out simple music. More complex music is another thing though, it takes a really good ear and a lot more work to learn some of the more difficult pieces.

 Having the written music is so much easier. You can go the ear route but you are in for lots of study. You can learn all there is about theory, if you learn what different chords and harmonies sound like it gets easier to learn by ear. You can be a lone wolf and figure out your own names for things so you can remember them, but the smart thing to do would be to use the universal established language of written music. What we are saying is that if you want an alternative path, you have to invent it on your own.

 You might find several like minded people to hang out with and exchange ideas with, find some jamming buddies. Pop music is largely started with bands that barely know chords or notes, but if they listen to each other they can make music. Again, it is usually easier to have some language, whether its chord charts or written music. I won't say that this is the only path, but you better be really talented and hard working to be able to choose a different path.

[nyiregyhazi]

I say if you don't know how to help, don't post in this thread. As bad as it may itch to get your opinion in, it really isn't helping. I don't want 100 people to convince me to read more music after I just said I hate it. No one said reading isn't helpful and isn't a great method. After all this time DOING IT, It's just not for me. If my piano teacher couldn't teach me the way I wanted, I'd get rid of him. I know how to read music, have so for a while, and still hate it. I never said it was hard, I'm just tired of it because it's not leading me to the goal I wish to achieve.

No, you're here asking what paths might be out there because you haven't found one. That's exactly why I made my point. You've already shut out one of the quickest paths available for you to learn from- but you haven't found an alternative. It sounds to me like your search for an alternative is highly wishful thinking. If you're not going to learn from music then, unless you are extremely talented, you are going to have a far harder task. There's no easy alternative for anyone but the ultra-talented. The alternative is basically to go and do it. There's little advice anyone here could give you in doing that. It's down to you to go and figure out for yourself, if that's the route you wish to take. It's easy for the talented and hard for everyone else. Conversely, reading music does nothing but open doors and requires very little talent.

"With this logic, a neurosurgeon who hates using proper cutting techniques to open up the human scalp (even though he has to) clearly isn't good enough to right? Even after he's had years of experience? You're just talking out of your hole. You have no idea how good or not good enough I am. Stick to the topic or don't post at all please."

That you feel reading a few notes on a piece of paper is tantamount to making an incision says it all. When you've learned how to do it, it's as effortless as reading words. There's nothing to hate- unless you find the process hard to do. What's to hate about seeing musical information that you can do whatever you like with- unless you're finding it hard to decipher. There's no shame in finding music hard to read. It just takes perserverence and understanding of the simplest approaches to doing it. You're clearly reading this an attack, but all I am saying is that you're making a mistake if you think there's an easier way. Reading IS the easiest way to get access to musical knowledge.

[silph]

this recent post has got me thinking about what most people here seem to be saying..;
they seem to be saying "you COULD try the by-ear route, but it's SO MUCH EASIER doing it through reading music".

(soitainly had something we hadn't seen yet in this thread (unless i missed something): someone who /did/ do the by-ear route first, and /then/ did the music-reading route. maybe this is why i got these thoughts just now.)



i wonder if i even understand nickmead's goals, though? i wonder if more clarity about what he's wanting to do might be helpful?

i mean, everyone is saying that reading music IS the shortcut, and IS learning to play piano. but now i'm wondering:

• reading music makes EXACTLY WHAT easier? playing classical pieces, obviously, but that isn't what nickmeads is after. copying popsongs to begin with? maybe nickmeads is willing read music to do that -- at first. composing melodies? maybe reading music here isn't so necessary?

i feel like everyone is reacting so strongly to nickmead's statement that s/he "hates reading music", but aren't looking past the statement to see what s/he /means/ by that.
` for example, s/he says that following the "standard" method of learning music had discouraged him/her, so much to the point that s/he put aside the keyboard for months at a time. there was clearly something not working, something discouraging, and s/he wants a different method.
` nickmeads then says that s/he knows how to read music, and will do it -- but only temporarily.

` this makes me wonder:

• what's this "standard" method that was so discouraging? to nickmead, it struck him/her as having to do with "reading music". maybe this "standard method" = "do these scales, these etudes... and then here's a piece of music to learn", and doing that ad nauseum: ie, most of the learning method is about *learning printed sheet music*
• maybe nickmead IS willing to use sheet music, as the language/shortcut that everyone is telling him will work. maybe s/he just only wants to use it *for different goals*, goals that are more about training the ear and learning composition/improvisation and copying simple songs, than learning pieces.

so in short, i wonder if part of the frusteration/defensiveness from nickmead is that his/her goals are being shot down, being told that they aren't feasible... when in actuality we forum members are completely misunderstanding his goals?



nickmeads, how would you feel about telling us more about what your goals actually are?

[keyboardclass]

This whole thread seems a little facetious if you ask me.  There is only one alternative and that is playing by ear.  In the Baroque period it was expected of any keyboard player that they could do this to a high degree.  It's said by some of WF Bach that one reason why so little of his work survived (he lived to be 74) is that he couldn't be bothered to write much down - not that plausible, but certainly telling in this context.  And nick, it ain't exactly good netiquette to attempt to control who can and cannot post in threads.  As far as I can see no one's actually gone OT.

[vandermozart3]

Ok, I'm going to try to stay out of forum politics for now.

Nickmeads, I know exactly what you are feeling.
I play from both written music and by ear and think both are invaluable, and help each other.

So you can already read music? GOOD You don't have to learn, like everyone's telling you :O ignore them, they misinterpreted everything

I think all you need to do is to make sure you know basic things like circle of fifths etc.

- Play through (with chords) songs you like and just pay attention to what progressions sound good.
- When you're listening to music, sit down at the piano and play the melody OR the chords, and find the progression
- Just sit at the piano with NO PRESSURE on yourself, and muck around playing random melodies (doesn't matter if they sound way off) and find chords to go along with them. Even if the chord sounds completely wrong just experiment with different combinations of notes and make cool sounds
- Do a mixture of these and eventually it will just become second nature to you

Sorry if that's not really what you wanted, but through my experience it works
GOOD LUCK!

[pianisten1989]

If he doesn't want to read music, then don't tell him over and over again how much better life would be if he did.
Most people who play the piano know where c is. If he want to write music, that's enough. It's just about counting up and down, I think he can manage without being the best sight reader ever.


Anyhow, I think you just should play and improvise. I wasn't taught this way, so I have no idea if it woks or not. But I don't see any other way than to practise like that.

If you have tunes in your head, just sit down and play them until you get it right. At first, it will probably take forever, but the more you do it, the easier it will get.

[nyiregyhazi]

If he doesn't want to read music, then don't tell him over and over again how much better life would be if he did.
Most people who play the piano know where c is. If he want to write music, that's enough. It's just about counting up and down, I think he can manage without being the best sight reader ever.

Why isn't he already just doing this then instead of complaining how much he hates reading music? My guess is because it's not actually terribly easy for the average person to just sit and figure things out for themself. The talented flourish and those who don't start with a great ear often end up lost and wondering where to go. That's why reading music is so useful. Even if you're not super talented, you have something to learn from. Just because you do not want to be stuck in following instructions from a page does not mean you should abandon scores- particularly if you find yourself lost as to how to progress. They are as valuable for improvisation approaches as anything else. Scores are not only there to be played literally as written. It's a simple way to be able to learn from others, regardless of whether you have a superb ear or not. Those who have the God-given talent not to need written texts don't need to ask what the alternative is. They just do it.

[pianisten1989]

Being able to build a grand piano is also very helpful.

Why is it so hard to just say something different from what you're used to? If this guy doesn't want to read music, how is that your problem?! Instead of being a douche and telling him that he should start reading music, maybe you could either:
a) Don't join the discussion, or
b) Give him some advice he's actually asking for.

[nickmeads]

Okay let me simplify things. Pretend this had nothing to do with reading or not reading notation.

Besides scales, fingerings, chords and arpeggios, what other "categories" of music theory exist that will boost my music making skills more?

My biggest issue right now is the very beginning of coming up with a new tune, I'll just sit on the keyboard and play random things and of course ill follow some progressions that sound good in one song or some basic textbook progressions or scales but whats the key to making a very unique catchy melody? Is it a lot of luck? Experimentation? Just going with a tune and customizing it more and more daily til it sounds better and better?

[floydcramerfan]

All I can say is just to know about chords and figure out progressions.  I play by ear and also don't like reading music.  Some of the best musicians can't read a lick of music.  As for improv and composing, I would say just play with it.  Also, if you know the number system, that's pretty helpful to know how chords go together.  If you are going to play by ear, it would be a good idea to learn basic music theory.

[mcdiddy1]

You should try Jamey Aebersold Jazz method....he has more than 30 books and believe some of them are not jazz but different styles. He has play along Cds that play harmonic progressions and gives you tips on improvising in every book. The basic advice he gives for learning to play by ear is to listen, listen, listen, sing what you play so you can learn to audiate your musical ideas, record yourself so you can hear the results of your improv, what you like and do not like, dedication to mastering your craft, understanding some music theory ( the different qualities of chords, what scales go well with what), practice scales to develop finger dexterity and to help create your own melodies or short ideas called motives or licks, and practice playing in every key so you will not feel limited to certain keys.

I hope that helps, and that being said what people say about note reading is true about it being a simpler way of learning music but the great classical masters like Beethoven and Mozart improvised all the time and I have little doubt they would not play their pieces note for note as written on the page. Sorry for all the negative post towards you, truth is you went to a forum filled with piano teachers who spend their day getting students to understand the complexity of notation so you might want to try a improv forum or jazz piano based forum for more specific ideas rather than here.

The truth is you should be applauded for having the determination to want to go a more difficult  path of ear training but regardless of what people say you can easily be come successful if you have the talent at music making ( although you would make more money and not be as limited if you read music). I really wish us music educators would encourage all avenues of music making rather than just the one we are most familiar with.

[floydcramerfan]

Just have to say a big wordy mcWord to your post.  It seems like so many people look down on playing by ear.  I even heard someone in college say it was cheating.  Unfortunately, I sort of went off on her for that.

[vandermozart3]

Just have to say a big wordy mcWord to your post.  It seems like so many people look down on playing by ear.  I even heard someone in college say it was cheating.  Unfortunately, I sort of went off on her for that.

WOAH, cheating? I'm pretty sure it's the reading that's cheating?!??

[lostinidlewonder]

Go study how to read fake books, although then you need extensive rhythmic training and a good ear for hearing rhythms. I was taught this way by my father who was taught by jazz musicians who played in his fathers restaurants back in the 50s. I was taught how to read guitar tabs and how to form them around different rhythmic styles like bosa nova, rock, latin jazz etc etc. You know those rhythmic beats you can have preset on digital pianos or organs? Learn these type of drum rhythms and how to play them on piano.

Playing by ear is a wonderful path and very rewarding however much harder than learning to read music. With reading music you can make progressive improvement, with playing by ear you can certainly plateau based on your ear's "talent". For instance my hands could play anything by my ear could not catch more developed rhythms without someone (my father) showing them to me. Playing by ear requires that you have someone who also is trained in that ability mentoring you, self learning ear training is very very difficult and slow if you rely on recordings to help you.

[Bob]

You could go with easier music so reading isn't so much of a pain.  then work up from there.  

Or work on some jazz piano material.  Trickier rhythms probably but not as much reading and it would translate into other pop styles.

[nyiregyhazi]

whats the key to making a very unique catchy melody? Is it a lot of luck? Experimentation? Just going with a tune and customizing it more and more daily til it sounds better and better?

You're not going to like hearing this, but the trick is to learn from others- which is exactly why for all but the most talented it's important to read. Analyse songs by others and think about the scale used- is it simple or does it feature chromatic notes. Which melodic notes belong to the harmony underneath and which ones clash with it etc. To hope to grasp such details by ear alone is difficult. To follow them on a basic chart with a single line melody and chord symbols is very quick and easy- provided that you are a fluent reader. It's the simplest way to get information and learn from it. You can just fiddle around and see what happens- but it's a very slow way to learn, unless you are especially talented. That's why most people feel lost this way.

to the poster who feels anyone is frowning on playing by ear, I certainly am not. I'm pointing out how much harder it is to do so when you close off some of the most useful avenues of learning. There are more ways than slavishly following scores and throwing them out entirely.

[sharmayelverton]

Depends largely on what you want to do. However developing good aural skills will invariably help you regardless what you want to do.

One of the most useful reasons to read music is simply because it is the language in the majority of music is archived. If you want access to the repertoire without reading music you need to find other sources. The most widly available source is recordings so if you can figure out by ear then your laughing. Most people however, (am happy to stand corrected) will find reading music, if not significantly easier, certainly a far quicker way of learning the notes than by ear. Of course it depends on the complexity of the music.

On the other hand the large majority of jazz (as well as a significant amount of other popular music) is written in the form of a lead sheet. That is a melody line in standard notation with corresponding chord symbols. The real and fake books are the biggest collections of jazz lead sheets. To make good use of these you need to develop an understanding of the conventions of the style. You need a knowledge of chords, voicing and associated scales and improvisation. These terms may sound daunting but it's all very achievable if thats what you want to do. There is mountains of information on the net about all this but a classic tome for playing jazz piano is Mark Levin's 'the jazz piano book'. Whilst jazz is possibly the most complex of popular music, the principals learnt in this apply to manny other popular styles such as blues, pop, rock and roll.

I think that reading music is an extremely helpful skill to have so it's good to maintain a foundation in it. Good luck with everything.

[ongaku_oniko]

The negative posts (or at least mine) was not directed at a search for another method of learning music.

It was against the fact that the OP's attitude in learning music deems him unable to progress either in music or in life. "I don't want to read music because it's hard". What kind of a lame excuse is that? I always support anyone who tries hard to achieve what they want regardless of talent, but when you don't try and just want to cut corners, that's unacceptable.

Don't be so arrogant in thinking you're the only one open to new ideas and new ways to learn; you're not willing to take any of the good advice given here at all.

The attitude that you want to avoid something and cheat your way past it is what is making me angry. Such people won't have what it takes to do music.

[pianowolfi]

Warning, rant ahead

Of course some of the reactions here (including my own one) might have been different if the situation was the other way around, that most people are proficient readers and only 20 % could play by ear! Probably I'd get angry at those who don't want to play by ear. Both is important and of course music itself is the real thing and not note reading.

 But to refuse reading just out of sheer lazyness is what I am fighting every single freaking day as a "piano teacher"! I am in reality not a piano teacher, I am a bad psychologist/babysitter/spoonfeeder!! At least that's what I feel people expect from me! I hate teaching note reading, I hate it with a passion! I'd rather teach music!! But 80% of the people are more or less great at playing by ear and implicitely expect me to show them every single note and chord so they won't have anything else to do but copy, and won't have to think and decipher "oh so difficult notes", and they aren't realizing that they behave like a 4 year old!! And that for a person with normal intelligence note reading isn't hard at all, once you practice it regularly. But they just don't feel like practicing it! They would never get able to understand nor play more complex music nor would they ever get able to work independently on their own if I let them get away with it. And they freaking don't understand that I can't do my job properly if they are not willing to do their part of it. And these people have completely intact brains, ears and eyes. Why not use them if you have them?

[/rant]

[floydcramerfan]

Well, when your eyes don't work at all, but your ears work perfectly, you play by ear.  If I couldn't play by ear, I would be severely limited because braille music is not that easy to find.  I can decipher a braille score, but I'm very slow at it, or I can play by ear and learn very quickly.  I think I'll play by ear.

[pianowolfi]

Well, when your eyes don't work at all, but your ears work perfectly, you play by ear.  If I couldn't play by ear, I would be severely limited because braille music is not that easy to find.  I can decipher a braille score, but I'm very slow at it, or I can play by ear and learn very quickly.  I think I'll play by ear.

Yes of course you are right, because you don't have vision and because braille music is hard to get. But really, people with handicaps or disabilities have never been a problem with me, I have had a few dyslexic students and we had mostly a great time together! My problem are people who have every sense and every normal mental and bodily function but are just lazy at thinking!

[floydcramerfan]

Well, if I had vision, I would probably learn to read, but I sure wouldn't play strictly by the score unless I was playing classical.  I mostly play gospel and bluegrass, and you don't have a score in bluegrass and copying the score in gospel sounds very dead.

[pianowolfi]

Well, if I had vision, I would probably learn to read, but I sure wouldn't play strictly by the score unless I was playing classical.  I mostly play gospel and bluegrass, and you don't have a score in bluegrass and copying the score in gospel sounds very dead.

Yes of course different styles require different approaches. Anyway, I listened to your piece in the audition room and it sounds beautiful and I think you have a good understanding of musical structures and elements

[floydcramerfan]

Well, I don't want to brag, but I did really good in music theory and basically taught myself to play.  I had lessons, but that was mostly classical.  I had to teach myself the other stuff.

[keyboardclass]

Warning, rant ahead

[/rant]

Couldn't have put it better myself!

[john90]

Seriously check out this video. Go through it a few times. It is less than 15 minutes. It seems to cover an amazing amount, clearly and easily. Circle of fifths, building chords, good stuff.
 

I can't believe it is so good, and yet has only 500 views.

[flapdragon]

im teaching my friend how to read sheet music. he could've settled for the easy way out, just continuing to learn everything by ear—but he actually has a genuine desire to improve his piano playing, even if the process is painstaking and unbelievably boring. but to each his own i guess.

but as for your question, i can read sheet music but i can also play pretty much anything by ear (not like rachmaninoff or some classical piece with crazy counterpoint which i'd need sheet music for obviously, just pop/rock songs). i'm not sure what my 'process' is. i usually picture the keyboard in my head, and i know automatically what every note sounds like because i've memorized all the scales and intervals.

so that's my advice i guess. memorize the scales, intervals, chords, etc. start out with a simple melodic pattern like c to e to g. if you can figure out what that sounds like in your head, keep expanding to more complex patterns. for example, if you can figure out internally what this melody sounds like: g, f, f, a, b, c#, d, e, f, e, d, d... as well as being able to process chords like F, A, and D minor in your head—boom, that's Yesterday by the Beatles.

this is probably terrible advice and i dunno if it will work for anybody, but that's my process.