Hate reading music, what's the first step I can take to get around this?

[bleicher]

Most music in the world manages perfectly well without notation. It's only Western classical music that uses notation. Pop and rock, folk music from all over the world, Indian classical music, Chinese classical music and millions of other types of music have no notation at all. Jazz often uses notation but much of it is improvised. So no, you don't need to be able to read music to be a good musician. Get a midi keyboard and a music composing package such as Logic or ProTools and start composing. The results will be very different from the kind of composing that people who use notation write, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's worth any less artistically.

[keyboardclass]

Indian classical music, Chinese classical music and millions of other types of music have no notation at all.

There I think you're wrong.  A good check of facts is always useful!

[bleicher]

Ah, I stand corrected. There is a notation system for Chinese music. But plenty of other music is not notated.

[keyboardclass]

I think you'll find the notion of 'classical' in any culture involves some form of notation.  It's kinda what it's all about - preserving the past.

[piano_channeller]

Most music in the world manages perfectly well without notation.

I beg to differ. I'm going to sound overly harsh but this is the kind of argument that I hear day after day and it is largely born out of ignorance.

DISCLAIMER: No, the OP doesn't need to bother with written music if he/she really doesn't want. Yes, this is another rant. 

Even if you learn by ear from recordings, or whatever, you are largely copying, whether you know it or not, from other musicians who have learned to read. Yes a pop or rock band can exist just fine without notation but how much of their music derives from written forms? Most of it I'd say. And if they want to get the session players in ie. strings or horns, then they'll more then likely need an arranger.

Look at rock players like Jon Lord or John Paul Jones. Jon Lord wrote the “Concerto for (Rock) Group and Orchestra” while John Paul Jones has since gone on to conduct orchestras and compose film scores. Speaking of which, no notated music means no film music as we know it. The Beatles may not have been able to read music but George Martin sure as hell could. You say Michael Jackson, I say Quincy Jones. The influence of those who can read and write is all over those who can't.

People talk about jazz as being improvised but much of it derives from written forms such as Ragtime. Big bands always use notation.

Pop and jazz owe a huge debt to classical forms and  western harmony and temperament. I doubt whether the concept of an equally tempered keyboard, a system that nearly everyone uses whether they are aware that it is a system or not, arises without being the logical endgame of our system of notation. Hmmm, discuss.

As keyboardclass points out notated music has enabled us to preserve the past. Much folk music, though originally passed down orally, is preserved for us through the efforts of those who went around collecting songs from different communities in the 18th and 19th centuries.

Noel Coward, who couldn't write a note, once wrote an article where he described the business of music notation as boring. One doesn't need to bother oneself with such trifles in order to compose popular ditties was his attitude. True but he then went on to describe how once he had written the lyrics and worked out the tune on the piano he would show it to an arranger (ie. someone who had bothered to learn how to write music) who would work out the harmony and write it all down for publication. It was only at this point that he could make money from his “labours” so I'm not sure why he wasn't more grateful.

[mcdiddy1]

I kind of emphasize with his struggle because of my recent experience with learning and teaching, When I am teaching people with disabilities I know that even though many of the students have problems determining the difference between the right and left hand. For some students the letters appear backwards in just reading common English. When you consider how complex notation is by its self and how many years of practice we teacher have has to get it right, you can imagine how difficult it would be for a student.

The other experience I had was I recently tried to learn how to play the flute. I have a huge background in music, understanding of complex notes, chords, notation,phrasing , musical expression, rhythmic feel, finger dexterity, tone, basically things needed to be a strong musician but it mean nothing because I could not get a sound out.  Does this I have no musical talent or I am lazy, stupid, and should never touch music again? I would hope no one would feel that way because I play a number of instruments very well. The way my body was made and embouchure and set up made playing the flute very very difficult for me although other woodwind instruments I did pretty well at.

 From this experience I very reluctant to slap a " lazy "  or an untalented label on someone I do not know and especially someone who is willing to go the difficult route to learn the piano. This experience helped me become a better teacher because when I see students struggle at notes, I honestly cant get mad because I have no idea where their background is or how their brain works.

 Some people work better aural rather than visually because we were not all created equal. Giving students the ability to learn how to read notation may be the greatest gift you can give them because this may be the finally challenge before unlocking the ability to play anything they want. I think if we were to trade places with our student we would be a little more understand of the difficulty of reading notation,

[floydcramerfan]

Not trying to be a straightie here, but can we please stop referring to playing by ear as cheating or taking the easy way out?  I'm kind of proud to be able to play by ear.  I'm seriously not trying to sound hateful, but it's just a pet peeve of mine.

[piano_channeller]

Please don't take this personally but I have exactly the opposite peeve in that I come across people (not your good self) who think that playing by ear is what the true artist does and playing from sheets is for robots who have no musical soul. It's a kind of anti-intellectualism specific to music among the arts. There are many writers on music who appear to be simpathetic to this viewpoint, which doesn't help.

[floydcramerfan]

Well, I don't feel that way, but I'm not crazy about hearing people who follow the score and only play what's on the page.  I know you have to for classical and I respect people who play it, but I'm just saying for me, no thank you.  This is why I sucked at classical.  I've never liked having a score in front of me and being told, these are the notes you have to play.  I respect the composers, but to me it's like I was stealing their stuff.  I think maybe what those people are criticizing is the fact that some people can't play with out a score, not necessarily people who use a score.

[nickmeads]

"I don't want to read music because it's hard". What kind of a lame excuse is that?

Do you realize that nowhere in this thread have I said that reading music is hard? You're just reading words you think are there but really arent, your english reading comprehension is quite terrible to be judging me on how I read music.

The attitude that you want to avoid something and cheat your way past it is what is making me angry.

Then stop posting in this thread. I've asked you multiple times, control your hormones and be man enough to find something better to do with your amazing piano skilled life.

[keyboardclass]

Wow, what excellent rants!

[vandermozart3]

Do you realize that nowhere in this thread have I said that reading music is hard? You're just reading words you think are there but really arent, your english reading comprehension is quite terrible to be judging me on how I read music.
Then stop posting in this thread. I've asked you multiple times, control your hormones and be man enough to find something better to do with your amazing piano skilled life.

 
Go nickmeads

[keyboardclass]

Do you realize that nowhere in this thread have I said that reading music is hard? You're just reading words you think are there but really arent, your english reading comprehension is quite terrible to be judging me on how I read music.

Maybe ongaku hates reading?

[bleicher]

piano_channeller - I agree with a lot of what you say, but I still maintain my original point. I agree with you that it's incredibly annoying when pop musicians say they don't need to read music, when all they've done is play a tune and paid someone else to do the notation and arrangement for them. I also agree that Western classical music is all about notation, and it's not possible to be a classical musician without being able to read music (or braille equivalent) because a classical musician playing by ear is just copying someone else's performance, not developing their own from the score. I also agree that Western classical music, and music notation, are two of the great inventions of mankind.

I absolutely wouldn't advocate someone trying to be a classical musician without learning to read music, because I don't think that's possible.

But, I still maintain that there are other types of music out there that don't rely on notation, and someone who doesn't like music notation has the option to get out there and explore those types of music. Whether that's what the original poster wanted to hear is a different matter.

[floydcramerfan]

From the way I interpret the op, I don't think he/she wants to play classical music.  It is true that reading is a necessity for classical, but a lot of other types of music is not written down.  Yes, they use chord charts, but you don't strictly follow the score like you do in classical.  For example, bluegrass, which is something I know a lot about, is pretty much all by ear.  You sit down with the records/CD's and try to figure out by ear what they're playing, but for pity's sakes, don't copy 'em!!!  You're supposed to listen to all the pickers and use their influence along with stuff you figure out on your own to create your own style.  Remember, I'm just speaking specifically of bluegrass.

[nyiregyhazi]

Do you realize that nowhere in this thread have I said that reading music is hard?

What do you hate about it then? Just because a person reads from a score does not prohibit them from changing the notes or improvising freely. A score can just as well be a source of freedom. It's only a source of restriction, if you choose to treat it that way. So what's to hate unless you find it hard?

When you listen to a song, can you identity every chord and melody note by ear? If so, sure, who needs scores? However, if not (as is the case for most of us) what's to hate about having all the vital information laid out in front of you to learn from? Sorry, but I cannot make sense of this. Who "hates" having instant access to a song- unless it's the effort of gaining access that is what you hate? There's a difference between being capable of slowly figuring out notes and being able to read a line music in an instant. From what you've said, I feel sure that this difference is why you feel you "hate" reading. Fluent readers have nothing to hate. It barely even occurs to me that I am reading. It's simply the quickest way of putting musical information inside my brain. Whether I choose to play that exactly as written or if I wanted to analyse it in order to aid improvisation, there's no easier way that I am capable of. I'd have to have the ear of a true genius to come even close to what basic reading ability enables me to do.

[piano_channeller]

bleicher - agreed. I merely wished to challenge the assumption that "Most music in the world manages perfectly well without notation." Even though, if you take all indigenous music into account, this is almost certainly true.

Do you realize that nowhere in this thread have I said that reading music is hard? You're just reading words you think are there but really arent, your english reading comprehension is quite terrible to be judging me on how I read music.

This is your whole problem, why can't you admit that you find it difficult? There's no shame in that. You keep asking about scales, chords and arpeggios but if you can read so well you would have learned them already. There are only 12 major scales and, in each key, 7 basic triads. The information is all over the internet and if you can play around in those keys for a little while you'll also be able to improvise in the natural minor keys.
Here:

Major Scales
https://www.jasonbrame.com/theory/fundamentals/scaleimages/allmajor.gif

Diatonic Triads
ttp://www.mypianoriffs.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/C-Major-Scale-Diatonic-triads-1.png

and just for good measure and because it's probably easier when you're starting out improvising:

Modes
https://www.learnmusicfree.com/lesson/fundamentals/images/scales_modes.jpg

Then stop posting in this thread. I've asked you multiple times, control your hormones and be man enough to find something better to do with your amazing piano skilled life.

I don't believe that it is for you to tell other people to stop posting in this thread. Especially when they are trying to help you.

By the way, "hate" in capital letters is a very strong word and probably the main reason why you've had so many negative responses.

[nickmeads]

This is your whole problem, why can't you admit that you find it difficult?

I'm not going to admit to something I don't feel. I've read music for too long now and playing other people's music all day long just isn't clicking with me as to how it's helping me make my own music. After sitting here playing sheet music hour after hour, and then removing the sheet, I'm at a blank stare when trying to compose my own music. Hence me hating it, not because of its difficulty (it's an easy thing to do, I just memorize small segments at a time, i'm not interested in sight reading or classical), I'm just tired of reading other people's music and at the end not really coming out with the feeling of "hey I can make my own now!" Maybe things haven't clicked for me yet.

I don't believe that it is for you to tell other people to stop posting in this thread. Especially when they are trying to help you.

By the way, "hate" in capital letters is a very strong word and probably the main reason why you've had so many negative responses.

Trying to help, and actually being helpful are two different things. His nasty attitude automatically invokes me to respond in a similar manner. And yes hate is a strong word, but it's how I feel. Maybe "greatly dislike reading music as my only method to pump out music from my piano" wouldve been better suited. But I'm not here to sugar coat things, I'm here to actually get advice from the guys who have felt the same way as I have and learn how they've gotten to their goals. Hence, when someone like ongaku comes into this thread calling me lazy, a cheater, arrogant and whatnot, I am surely at a liberty to ask him to stop flooding this thread with his nonsense - especially since his path and my path are much different. He has no idea what to answer my question with so his anger is a little immature at this point. He's not the person I'm looking for, as he doesn't know the answer. If I wanted more convincing on "read more music you lazy piece of sh*t" I wouldn't have made this thread.

Once again, I'll try to clarify since most of the people here seem to read their own thing:

My goal isn't to read music better, it's to understand how it's actually helping me make my own music, because like I said, my mind goes blank when the sheets are gone. It's discouraging to me. And i'm at a standstill wondering here how to start from scratch to make my own melodies (through scales, chords, and whatever people suggest). Didn't think this question was that mind boggling and uncomfortable, and I apologize for most of the spam and useless banter going on in this thread.

[keyboardclass]

My goal isn't to read music better, it's to understand how it's actually helping me make my own music, because like I said, my mind goes blank when the sheets are gone.

Now I find that strange.  Most of what I play I've memorized but it's really a combination of memorizing the harmonic progression and a bit of playing by ear and visual memory.  I couldn't possibly be left 'blank when the sheets are gone' because I have a whole bunch of progressions residing in my head from this process.

[nickmeads]

Now I find that strange.  Most of what I play I've memorized but it's really a combination of memorizing the harmonic progression and a bit of playing by ear and visual memory.  I couldn't possibly be left 'blank when the sheets are gone' because I have a whole bunch of progressions residing in my head from this process.

Well yeah I don't forget what I played I just mean when I get on the piano without any sheet music I'm not sure how to begin my own music.

[mcdiddy1]

If you want to improve at making your own music, you may want to consider taking a composition/ theory lessons at a local college so you can learn the way composers create music. You could also find a number of good music writing books. You would benefit from getting a background in writing in music if you explore the jazz music route with Jamey Abersold series which takes you step to step to improvising.

Melody is derived from harmony so if you want to improve your ability to create music it would help to know how to create chord progressions. In order to learn that you have to copy what others have done before and then maybe spin your own.

Just the other day I had a recording sessions where I was asked to improvise some music for a singer's album. I asked what the key was and the chord progression and figured out a scale that would mess well with the chords. What's funny is after this session , the producer and singers got some ideas and used notation to write some ideas they had gotten from the recording.

My point is we were easily able to communicate different musical ideas between each other not necessarly because we read music ( which we all could) or playing by ear but because we knew about music harmony, chords and such.  Whenever I see composers exchanging ideas, they are always speaking about dominant sharp 5 chords, D7 ninth chords, basicily jazz sounding progressions. If your mind is blank then you might not be thinking  harmonically. Simply reading a great deal of sheet music is not going to teach you how to compose but really how to imitate not create. Knowing harmony gives you knowledge to kick out scales, create melodies that work with the harmonic progression you are using.

[nyiregyhazi]

Well yeah I don't forget what I played I just mean when I get on the piano without any sheet music I'm not sure how to begin my own music.

Begin by analysing and understanding what other people wrote. Are you expecting to reinvent the wheel from scratch? How is throwing out scores going to help- when the scores contain the easiest access to the processes you need to understand? If you don't like just following instructions about which keys to press then the answer to is to start UNDERSTANDING why those are the keys you're pressing- not to throw out scores. Sorry to be blunt, but it's no surprise that you're feeling lost if you go straight from simply following instructions to simply trying to make something up. Real reading is as much about understanding the forms and harmony behind the notes as it is about playing them.

[keyboardclass]

Well yeah I don't forget what I played I just mean when I get on the piano without any sheet music I'm not sure how to begin my own music.

Presumably you don't forget the chord progressions, the aural sheet on which you can write? 

[loops]

If I understand the OP correctly, then the question is:

"I can play other people's music 'til kingdom come, but I want to play *my* music. How do I do that?"

There are some nice books available that talk about composing music suitable for people with elementary to more advanced levels of notational skills, but I hesitate to list the ones I look at as I'm not an expert who knows the best books and I don't want to be seen to endorse a product which is probably not allowed. In any event, it's important to find book, teacher or course that "speaks" to you.


(Warning: The rest of this post addresses the question above in my own terms and in my own way. I am writing this to help myself think about it as I have nearly the same problem, and if it is of interest to others, great!)

The question of self-expression resonates with me because while I am strongly creative in several areas of my life, my musical creativity re composing and improvising, seems tentative and undeveloped.  Nevertheless, I feel driven to play music. Part of my musical creativity problem is that when I'm playing Mozart (for example, currently the Adagio in B minor), I know I lack the craft that goes into making his music so satisfying, and so I lose courage to try to compose or improvise myself.

So here is a summary of my thinking and reading on the problem of musical self-expression.

1) Many writers bemoan the myth that there are special people with melodies written in their hearts and that 'real' creatives don't need any kind of training. The writer of the Foreword of 'Improvising jazz' (by Jerry Coker, and I give the reference as I'm quoting it) refers to the myth of musical creativity existing in only special people, and writes, "this myth consists of the unfortunate notion that the creation of music is a vague, nebulous act....that there is a state of 'inspiration' which periodically descends from 'above', being granted only to those composers who, for equally nebulous reasons, are especially endowed to receive such inspirations. A corollary of this fantasy is that such ingredients as thought and work (other than the mere notating of the 'inspiration' on music paper), in fact any intellectual activity whatever, are anathema to 'true' artistic creativity."
2) There is a gulf between passive and active knowledge, between understanding on some level what someone else does, and doing it yourself.
3) Nevertheless, passive knowledge necessarily comes before active knowledge.  This is because:
4) Inspiration comes to a well prepared mind.
5) I'm always being told that young children can compose and improvise easily because they are 'free'  and it's only that I'm an adult and therefore necessarily damaged in some way that I have a problem with self-expression. Now I'm a big fan of emulating how children learn and I learn things that way as far as I can. However, the free improvisations of children are judged by the achievement of making any kind of quasi-musical noise at all, while adults are judged by their deficit from a professional standard, so what is applauded when a child improvises is viewed as self-indulgent twaddle when an adult plays something similar. Further, children can't be creative in the ways that I am because you need 15 years plus to learn the stuff that you need to know to do what I do.
6) All things considered, I see no reason why musical creativity, that is worth listening to, doesn't take as long to develop as other serious forms of creativity, ie years.

It seems there is a lot to be done to learn the language of music, and then write my own poetry in it. For this reason and others, I am pushing myself to learn to sight-read, as opposed to figuring stuff out bar by bar and then memorising it which is my current modus operandi. (One reason is that I can't do it, which makes me determined to do it!!)  However, I'm told that if you can sight read fluently then you are having to grasp musical words and phrases in order to perform them. Logically then, if you pay attention to these phrases and remember the good ones, you then have acquired a vocabulary and a store of sentences with which to start to speak yourself, since imitation comes before innovation. I objected to this on the grounds that there was a semi-infinite vocabulary to learn and I'd never get to the point of writing something myself, but my teacher assures me that things clarify and suddenly I'd "get it".  

Finally, I know from experience that when the brain has the information it needs to articulate what it is trying to say, it says it. So, I have to trust.

all best, loops

[nickmeads]

Good points loops. This is something that takes years to master or even a lifetime depending on your definition of master. Im mostly self teaching so I don't have anyone to push me in the right direction (if there even is one for my goals).

Right now I can look at a few consecutive notes and tell if its a chord or not but thats the best I can really do. My knowledge extends as much as much chords and some of their inversions (if you havent gotten it by now I'll reiterate that reading music is all ive pretty much done and im bored of it) and some scales. I know im supposed to look at music notations and figure out what theyve done and how theyve done it and all that, but im just not sure how to do that. Essentially, I DO want to study others' music but I don't know HOW. Hence me asking what to learn in order to get started on being a better studyer.

[keyboardclass]

Start by looking for all the V-I's.

[vandermozart3]

For studying other works, the first thing that came to mind was the development sections of mozart's piano concertos. When we study them we use these middle sections to analyze the chords (mostly arpeggios) and see how thy modulate.
Obviously it's nt only mozart's piano concertos but any other composer, genre, or instrument...these were just the first to come to mind

If you want me to clarify what I just said, tell me

[davidjosepha]

Due to the negative amount of responses in this topic, I feel obligated to point out that written music is merely a means to convey audible music to another person so he can learn it. I'm sure that Mozart (nor any other composer) could have composed as well as he did without first having learned the principles of music, which I'm sure he learned through written music. However, after learning all that, I'm sure Mozart could have said, "To Hell with this cheap imitation of art!" and never written a note down again and STILL created amazing music. He just wouldn't have been able to let others learn it. If OP's goal is to play classical piano, he's going to have to read music because there really is no other practical way of learning a piece. However, if he's interested in writing his own music to play, there's absolutely no need to read music. I know several amazing guitarists that know the names of the notes and chords, know tons of theory, but would be completely baffled if you put a sheet of music in front of them and told them to play it. To say that you must use written music in order to compose is comparable to saying that you need to read and write in order to tell a story. Look at The Iliad and The Odyssey. They weren't written down till centuries after they were created.

That being said: I highly recommend finding some way of getting over your hatred of reading music, if you possibly can. You'll open many more doors for you musically if you learn to love reading music. However, it's better to avoid it if the alternative is to just throw your keyboard in your closet.

[mcdiddy1]

After defending the importance of ear training, there is also an option of becoming so skilled at reading that is can help you improvised. I personally got in to the habit of sight reading so many pieces, I could take melodies and come up with accompaniments for them. By learning a great deal of musical patterns I have the ability to improvise different musical styles.

[rmbarbosa]

Please, do something you like but not music.

[floydcramerfan]

Please, do something you like but not music.

Am I halucinating or did I just read someone encouraging this guy not to play music?  So what, are people that don't want to read music not supposed to play?  I guess the only music that should be allowed is classical.  Wow.  If this was not what you meant, sorry for being hateful.  Please clarify.

[nickmeads]

Please, do something you like but not music.

Yeah I'm gonna listen to some nobody like you lol. Please, do something you like but don't breathe.

[floydcramerfan]

Way to tell off the straightie, lol.

[nickmeads]

I picked up some great books I feel comfortable with, particularly Alfred's "The Complete Book of Scales, Chords, Arpeggios & Cadences" which explains a ton of stuff including fingerings for each scale, Circle of Fifths, how to create chords and scales instead of remembering them only (which I absolutely love doing, I can create 24 scales without memorizing now, and am learning to play songs which use them).

I also have two amazingly easy to understand but very thorough Scale theory books for my guitars, which is helping me understand piano a lot better too. They both interchange and help each other out.

I hope this is the right first step (after learning how to read music and doing it for some time) in my musical career (if you will call it that) for advancing to the next stage. I hope if theres anything I'm missing someone will come in to correct me.

[floydcramerfan]

It sounds like you're headed in the right direction.  Theory is your friend.

[brother_ali]

Greetings

Let's get straight to the point. I HATE reading music. I know how, but the more I have to follow this "standard" method for learning the more I put my keyboard back in my closet. Its discouraged me from playing it for 3 months now.

I do not want to be a classic music performer or write scores for movies. I simply want to have enough know-how in order to compose my own tunes in my head and some more know-how to polish them up or make them more interesting.

Can you list some things I should learn in what order? Chords, scales, arpeggios? Yes ill read whatever I have to in order to memorize them but after that I'm done!

Thanks.

This post seems custom made for me.

My name is Ali Rashada, and I am the developer of EasyKey, a groundbreaking new music notation, that virtually anyone in the world can read immediately, with no prior training.

More than that, we have created the very tools you seek, specifically the scale and chord diagram.
This document shows all the notes (the scale)  within each key Ab - G, then it shows the root position chords, and finally shows you how to play the most used chord patterns, or cadences. All this is done in the EasyKey notation, so all you really have to worry about is making your fingers play what you read.

Please take a look at the website:

www.easykeymusic.com.au

and download the freebies, which contains the scale and chord diagram for the key of C.
Please use these materials, then let me know if they meet your needs and expectactions

Sincerely

Ali Rashada
www.easykeymusic.com.au
www.mp3.com.au/Alirashada/music

[nickmeads]

I didn't ask for a new method of reading music. Thanks but no thanks.

[rmbarbosa]

To me, Music is a very serious thing. And play piano is also a very serious thing. In order that one can play well, to put the hands on the keyboard and make the keys go down and up isnt to play, it is make sounds, only. To play well needs the understanding of the struture of the composition, the knowlege about what the composer had in his mind and heart, etc. If one guy hate learn music, how can he understand all this? and how can he give us something really important when he "plays" something? He can be a mediocre player, only. And, in Music, no one may choose mediocrity, I think. Music is a "tremendous manifestation of the human spirit", not a "joke". That`s why I said: do anything else but not music.
Best wishes
Rui

[mcdiddy1]

It sounds like you're headed in the right direction.  Theory is your friend.

That exactly what i said in few words.lol

[floydcramerfan]

I just don't see how anyone can tell someone they should quit playing.  Some of the best players out there can't read a lick of music, and besides, there are other types of music besides classical.  Music should be for our enjoyment.  For you to say that only the people who want to read music and play classical should be allowed to play is just elitist and sad.  If you had read his posts, you would have seen that he can read music, but he wants to go past reading and playing the notes on the page.  He is trying to understand how music is put together so he can create his own music rather than copying what someone else did, even if they are the great composers.

[pianowolfi]

Please, do something you like but not music.

That's a really stupid comment.

[nickmeads]

To me, Music is a very serious thing. And play piano is also a very serious thing. In order that one can play well, to put the hands on the keyboard and make the keys go down and up isnt to play, it is make sounds, only.

It's getting tiring having to defend myself but I really don't care if you find music very serious. You're not the only musician on earth. Music isn't surgery, I don't have to follow exact procedures as everyone else to get to where I'm going. Music for me is 90% fun and 10% serious, because well, I'm not you, and I can go to sleep at night just fine knowing I don't have a piano up my read end all the time.

To play well needs the understanding of the struture of the composition, the knowlege about what the composer had in his mind and heart, etc. If one guy hate learn music, how can he understand all this? and how can he give us something really important when he "plays" something? He can be a mediocre player, only. And, in Music, no one may choose mediocrity, I think. Music is a "tremendous manifestation of the human spirit", not a "joke". That`s why I said: do anything else but not music.
Best wishes
Rui

I'm guessing you have trouble reading too, or didn't bother reading past the first post (which is very important in understanding the author of a book rmbarbosa, don't just read the first page, how shameful of you! reading is VERY serious!). To be honest, I really couldn't care about who's the composers girlfriend was, that's something for someone like you to know. I'd like to do is understand the structure of the composition yes, but you can't read something 1000 times and understand it without education of what it is you're reading behind it. If I want to be a mediocre player and that'll make me happy, then so be it. If it's a joke to me, then so be it. Who the hell are you to tell me I can't make music because I'm not as snobby about it as you? Some of todays biggest producers have made a successful living off just knowing a couple scales or none at all and just having fun with it - you surely aren't one of those with that attitude. I know what I want, and what kind of level of proficiency I seek (it's not that high). That's MY goal, as mediocre as it may be, but it's not yours to shut down. You're nobody to me on the internet. I come here asking for help on how to achieve a certain level of mastery and I get told to not do music because I don't want to be a stuck up robot in the way I learn? Man some of you probably lack most of the musical soul you claim I don't have.

How many times do I have to repeat, I CAN READ MUSIC. For the last time, I will repeat, it's not helping me learn how to make my own music if I'm blindly playing other peoples work. It took me one person who actually took the time to private message me and explain why scale construction and chord formation is important in advancing to the next stage of UNDERSTANDING the music instead of just reading it and pushing keys.

"If one guy hate learn music" ... are you kidding me? Did anyone here say they hate learn music? Reading notation all day long and hate learn music is different.

I swear it's the people who can't read simple english that criticize me for not wanting to read more music all day long. It's sad.

[nyiregyhazi]

"I swear it's the people who can't read simple english that criticize me for not wanting to read more music all day long. It's sad."

Please don't tar everyone with the same brush. What most of us were pointing out is that reading music is the easiest way to gain open ACCESS to musical ideas. Musical scores are literally the very opposite of anything elitist, regardless of what anyone else may say. They are there to make information widely available. Readings musical scores is like reading words. Just because a person can read English doesn't mean they will obey everything they see in print. Anyone who is mindless enough to do so does so off their own back. Both exist because they make things easier- not to limit people or make anything exclusive.

[nickmeads]

How many times are you going to tell me that? I never once said music won't help me get farther quicker or it doesn't have ideas in it. I just don't know how to explain what I'm reading besides "that's a quarter c note, and right after is a whole g note". I know what keys to push but I don't know why I'm pushing them or why these notes sound so comfortable with each other. I told you the whole point of this is that I don't know what it is i'm actually reading beyond the notes, what should I study to break down where the note progressions actually originate from, why were they placed this way and how can I make my own? And you keep saying "reading music will easily get you there".

But you don't want to be tarred with the same brush?

 

[nyiregyhazi]

How many times are you going to tell me that? I never once said music won't help me get farther quicker or it doesn't have ideas in it. I just don't know how to explain what I'm reading besides "that's a quarter c note, and right after is a whole g note". I know what keys to push but I don't know why I'm pushing them or why these notes sound so comfortable with each other. I told you the whole point of this is that I don't know what it is i'm actually reading beyond the notes, what should I study to break down where the note progressions actually originate from, why were they placed this way and how can I make my own? And you keep saying "reading music will easily get you there".

But you don't want to be tarred with the same brush?

 

When you take the chip off your shoulder and stop implying that those who believe reading music is extremely useful and stop portraying it as something elitist.

If you are not using YOUR brain to understand what YOU are reading then the failure is on YOUR part- not the nature of notation. Sorry to be blunt, but you have no business blaming your own limitations on printed music in general. Notation was designed to convey information. It's down to the person reading it to actually understand it, rather than repeat it like some monkey.

[nickmeads]

If you are not using YOUR brain to understand what YOU are reading then the failure is on YOUR part- not the nature of notation. Sorry to be blunt, but you have no business blaming your own limitations on printed music in general. Notation was designed to convey information. It's down to the person reading it to actually understand it, rather than repeat it like some monkey.

How can I have understood what I was reading if I had no knowledge of music theory? I'm supposed to magically figure it out with my brain? And when did I say music notation was limiting me? You're just like the other guys who don't get it, read whatever you think you see on here, and repeat 'read music' over and over again lmao.

Forget it, I give up trying to get any advice from you folks. I'll go read some more music to make you happy. I got my answer anyway from the very few who told me why theory was important on this thread and through PM, much thanks to you guys.

[nyiregyhazi]

How can I have understood what I was reading if I had no knowledge of music theory? I'm supposed to magically figure it out with my brain? And when did I say music notation was limiting me? You're just like the other guys who don't get it, read whatever you think you see on here, and repeat 'read music' over and over again lmao.

Forget it, I give up trying to get any advice from you folks. I'll go read some more music to make you happy. I got my answer anyway from the very few who told me why theory was important on this thread and through PM, much thanks to you guys.

A lot of people have given you a wealth of advice now. Why don't you go and use it- instead of keep claiming that everyyone who tried to help said you have to spend "all day" reading music. You don't. But if react by throwing it out, you're only going to limit your ability to learn.Take the chip off your shoulder and start analysing some basic songs, via the easiest means of doing so.

[nickmeads]

A lot of people have given you a wealth of advice now. Why don't you go and use it- instead of keep claiming that everyyone who tried to help said you have to spend "all day" reading music. You don't. But if react by throwing it out, you're only going to limit your ability to learn.Take the chip off your shoulder and start analysing some basic songs, via the easiest means of doing so.

Fantastic advice bro, thanks.

[eartraininghq]

Hi,

I'm completely new to this forum, in fact this is the first thread that I've read, but my reaction to this thread has been so strong that I felt compelled to join and write a (quite possibly way too long..sorry in advance) response to it.

What Nick seeks, contrary to the opinions of many posters in this thread, I believe is completely achievable, and I can't believe that there haven't been more people helping him out. So here's my take on it.

All you need is an understanding of some basic musical concepts.

1. A piece of music is in a keycentre.

2. The notes of that piece of music will mostly come from the major/minor or another scale that is built on the tonic note of the key centre.

3. Most of the harmonic movement is outlined by chords made up of notes from the major/minor scale of the piece. These are called the diatonic chords.

This is basically all the theory you need to get started. Try playing a C major scale. Now play any diatonic chord from that scale - C maj, D min, E min, F maj, G maj, A min, B dim (notice that these chords all only use the white notes of the piano - the notes of the C major scale.)

Try moving between these chords. Start with C major, and return to it relatively frequently, as it's the tonic chord. F maj (the IV chord) and G maj (the V chord) will also sound very natural, especially going from G maj to C maj (the V - I progression - a perfect cadence).

Try making up different chord progressions like this, and creating your own melodies using notes from the C major scale. You'll be making up your own music in no time.

You can advance on this by learning how to modulate to a new key centre, or learning how to use chromatically altered notes (the black notes when we're in C major).

This, in my opinion should get you started. To make the tunes that you play more interesting, you can improve your voice-leading between chords if you don't feel it's great, learn new voicings for the chords, learn to play them in new rhythms, or find new ways to outline the chords melodically rather than playing them in blocks.

You can learn to recognise the chords and melodies as you hear them in your ear with some ear training. Contrary to popular belief, training your ear and learning to play by ear require no talent whatsoever. Anyone can do it. The course that we've developed at Ear Training HQ is designed to allow you to do this easily, and with it you'll start to learn to identify things in music very quickly.

Anyway, that's my 2 (or is it 10 or 15 cents). You can find out more about our ear training method at our website, and you'll probably find the information in our free video series: Ear Training Essentials useful for what you wish to learn. (Sorry about the shameless plug, it's only because I feel it's relevant)

https://www.eartraininghq.com

Anyway, I think that's about enough from me. I hope this information is useful for some people

(and I hope I haven't broken any forum rules by putting a link to my site in, I didn't see that it's against forum rules so I figured I'd just put it in.)

And as a P.S. - I found this thread because someone contacted me through Ear Training HQ asking for resources to help them learn to play basic piano. I assumed when I read the original post that I'd get a list of great books that would help Nick to play in the way that I described, and I couldn't believe it when there seemed to be barely anything of that nature. So if anyone does know of a book that teaches piano in this way, please post it!

[lostinidlewonder]

.......This, in my opinion should get you started. To make the tunes that you play more interesting, you can improve your voice-leading between chords if you don't feel it's great, learn new voicings for the chords, learn to play them in new rhythms, or find new ways to outline the chords melodically rather than playing them in blocks.

How do you improve past the basics I think that is more important. Anyone can learn the basics in many fashions but how you develop from there is important and not something you can learn from any single program.

You can learn to recognise the chords and melodies as you hear them in your ear with some ear training. Contrary to popular belief, training your ear and learning to play by ear require no talent whatsoever. Anyone can do it. The course that we've developed at Ear Training HQ is designed to allow you to do this easily, and with it you'll start to learn to identify things in music very quickly.

This is overly optimistic as to how easy playing by ear is. You may be able to do basic ear work easily but as it gets more advanced simple formula that work for beginner stuff will not suffice. Go try to listen to Kasputin and play one of his pieces by ear.