If not Hanon nor Czerny then what?

[hawkranger]

hey all
just wanted your opinion in this
some people say no to Hanon and it is a waste of time
and some say that Czerny is outdated and also a waste of time

other says the exact opposite

IF both are not good and a waste of time then what is good for practice and improving finger dexterity, strength and speed
beside that just playing pieces shouldn't be there something that you practice daily to improve your left and right hands and after mastering it it will become a daily exercise that you do for an hour every day or something as a warmup at least???

[pianisten1989]

Oh God, not again! This will start yet another war!

Don't care what people think of Hanon or Czerny. As you said, some people here likes them. Which means that you might like them as well.

[asiantraveller101]

Waste of time! 
Stick to basics: scales, arpeggios, broken chords, blocked chords, etc. And focus practice on passages from pieces.

[gore234]

Hanon excersizes and czerny excersizes are NOT a waste of time.  If you want to improve the dexterity of your fingers,  Hanon excersizes work.

[lelle]

Hanon excersizes and czerny excersizes are NOT a waste of time.  If you want to improve the dexterity of your fingers,  Hanon excersizes work.

Isn't the argument of "the other side" that you could spend that time practising passages in works of approperiate difficulty, giving you both musical practise, a new piece in your repertoire and dexterity in your fingers?

[pianisten1989]

yeah, I love these argument so much!  "They suck!, NO THEY DON'T!, YES THEY DO! *** YOU!, NO, *** YOU!!!!"

The only way you can get a serious opinion is to try them for yourself. Play them like 30 minutes every day for couple of weeks. If they work, keep doing them, and if they don't, stop doing them. And you haven't lost plenty of time if they don't work.

[keyboardclass]

Do Cramer with plenty of Tankard thrown in.

[gerryjay]

Dear Hawk,
please, just read the following thread: https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=13583.0
Best regards,
Jay.

[mcdiddy1]

Easy answer to the question.....Do the best pianist in the world spend 2 hours..or even 30 minutes doing Hanon...even as warm-ups. No they don't. If they didn't need them, why would we. What did Beethoven and Mozart warm up on. Repetitive drills which did nothing to help improve musical expression, rhythm, phrasing, etc? You get better at technique by learning the correct body movements to achieve the musical effect. Repetition has an extremely important place but if if should be would good technique which Hanon will not improve until you understand how to use your fingers, arms and body to play.

That being said Hanon can be used, may the first two exercise to practice having your hands synchronized , evenness of tone, but that would be only if the student needed it and had no experience in doing this. But honestly all these skills could be learned in the music you want to play anyway so why not learn it in the music. You can play all the Hanon in the world you want but the only way you can learn to play challenging pieces written by Listz and Rachmanioff etc is ...get this .....by playing Listz and Rachmanioff, All the silly exercises going up the piano will do nothing you do not understand technique, learn effective practice, and have experiences doing difficult music. Sorry Hanon is not magic and never met a stunning technical player who practiced Hanon all day. Why not warm-up on a piece that is more musical and not so repetitive

[i_am_joey_jo]

  I like Hanon, he helps me play and daydream too!

On a side note I believe it really has helped me to co-ordinate my weak left hand with my string right and has also helped me to trill more evenly.

[countrymath]

Look for Cramer Etudes

They're heaven before Chopin

[poiuytrewq11zc]

say what you'd like about Hanon, but studying his exercises will undoubtedly help you develop a strong disciplined technique. Czerny I've only used as simple exercises to relax my wrists, though its very laborious and too much study deprives you of learning any real repertoire.

[quantum]

Chopets.   

Personally, I think it is far more advantageous for a student to tackle repertoire than to spend mindless hours on exercises. 

[lorditachijr]

I haven't used Czerny more than once or twice, so I can't judge that, but I can say something about Hanon. I think Hanon has its place. Some of the exercises, like the octaves, sixths, thirds and fourfold trills are really useful and make the standard repertoire a lot easier. I don't think you should spend a good portion of your practice time on Hanon, but I also don't think you should get your technique only from pieces. The first two books of Hanon I didn't spend much time on, but some of the exercises in book three are actually pretty helpful in preparing you for what's in the standard repertoire.

Good luck!
John

[thalbergmad]

Easy answer to the question.....Do the best pianist in the world spend 2 hours..or even 30 minutes doing Hanon...even as warm-ups.

The best pianists in the world do not need to. They have acquired their technique using various methods and have the repetoire to keep it in good order.

This is a Teaching thread and to deny a student any method which may or may not be of use is short sighted.

You can come up with all the piano science in the World, but still piano forums are full of people who say it has helped. Not for everyone, but for some it has value and the proof is in the pudding.

Thal

[pianisten1989]

Easy answer to the question.....Do the best pianist in the world spend 2 hours..or even 30 minutes doing Hanon...even as warm-ups. No they don't. If they didn't need them, why would we. What did Beethoven and Mozart warm up on. Repetitive drills which did nothing to help improve musical expression, rhythm, phrasing, etc? You get better at technique by learning the correct body movements to achieve the musical effect. Repetition has an extremely important place but if if should be would good technique which Hanon will not improve until you understand how to use your fingers, arms and body to play.

That being said Hanon can be used, may the first two exercise to practice having your hands synchronized , evenness of tone, but that would be only if the student needed it and had no experience in doing this. But honestly all these skills could be learned in the music you want to play anyway so why not learn it in the music. You can play all the Hanon in the world you want but the only way you can learn to play challenging pieces written by Listz and Rachmanioff etc is ...get this .....by playing Listz and Rachmanioff, All the silly exercises going up the piano will do nothing you do not understand technique, learn effective practice, and have experiences doing difficult music. Sorry Hanon is not magic and never met a stunning technical player who practiced Hanon all day. Why not warm-up on a piece that is more musical and not so repetitive

That was, by far, the dumbest response I've ever read. So if the best pianists doesn't need to practise technique, then none else needs to either? I don't follow you..?

So you're saying this: There is no need to practise octaves before trying to rock Hungarian rhapsody no 6? There is no need to practise chromatic scales before attempting the Emperor Concerto?

If you knew even a slightly bit music history, you'd know that Czerny was a student of Beethoven. He obviously got his stupid technical exercises from some wanker who thought he knew something. And then, Czerny was the teacher of Franz Liszt. Liszt spent hours on practising scales, thirds, sixth, leaps, arpeggios...-exercises that Czerny had written.

I don't know how many times I've hear renowned teachers at masterclasses tell the students to do some (not several hours a day, but, say, an hour) technical exercises. They do that either because:
a) They are afraid of some competition, and wants to ruin as many careers as they possibly can..
or
b) They know it helps...

Not everyone is skilled enough to start practising Chopin etudes as the first technical exercise in their life. So if Czerny was the teacher of Liszt, I think I know what he was doing.

And last: You're saying that, by playing technical exercises, you wont understand technique? How is that even possible? Hmm, I play arpeggios from Czerny - and I have no idea what I am doing!!!?!? OH NO! Hmm, lets play the exact same arpeggio, but in a difficult Liszt piece - Ah, now I got it... Like, what?

[thalbergmad]

Liszt spent hours on practising scales, thirds, sixth, leaps, arpeggios...-exercises that Czerny had written.

Only because the Chopin Etudes had not yet been written, otherwise he would have gone straight on to those on his first lesson

Anyway, what the hell did Beethoven, Czerny, Liszt, Kullak & Leschetizky know when we compare them to such modern wisdom as contained in this thread??

Thal

[lelle]

If you knew even a slightly bit music history, you'd know that Czerny was a student of Beethoven. He obviously got his stupid technical exercises from some wanker who thought he knew something.

I even heard this dude used to break his own instruments on a regular basis. Why would anyone want to learn from such a violent ass-hat? He was probably Communist, too

[geze]

One word.....Dohnanyi.  By far the best finger exercise book in the universe.  Hanon is ok but a little repetitive but if you mix Hanon or Czerny with Dohnanyi (Doc - according to my ex-teacher) then you cannot go wrong! For all thoses saying it is a waste of time and one can build their strength by playing pieces - the pieces are not meant for exercises, there pieces of music.  Finger exercises are supposed to sound dull and boring. They are also to be played as fast as you can and not as fast as you can't. 

[geze]

Also, I agree with gore234,  They are NOT a waste of time at all.  Scales do have their place (not just for exams) but these exercises work if you do them properly.

[mcdiddy1]

I even heard this dude used to break his own instruments on a regular basis. Why would anyone want to learn from such a violent ass-hat? He was probably Communist, too

Beethoven played with a great deal of emotion but he was also one the foremost virtuoso of his day. He wrote some of the most tender and delicate music also and was known for his ability to move audiences with his musicality and technique. The piano was also being developed at the time so chances are the instruments were not as strongly built at that time.

The best pianists in the world do not need to. They have acquired their technique using various methods and have the repertoire to keep it in good order.

This is a Teaching thread and to deny a student any method which may or may not be of use is short sighted.


Thal

Thats my point. Thats why i said in my post the first few Hanon exercises maybe useful for certain deficiencies. I have used them myself, but I would either teach them by rote or assign one or two...not the whole book. World class pianist acquire technique from repertoire, teaching, environment, experience etc. I have never seen or attended a master class where the pianist says practice 2 -3 hours of Hanon and scales everyday and that is all the technique you need. So the question I ask is what do they ask you to practice: music! The demands of the music require the learning of technique by using their bodies efficiently. Hanon does not teach you how to use your body, you learn it from repertoire  or from a teacher who can show you the correct body movement. I say this because there are plenty of people who practice Hanon who play with tension, unnecessarily high fingers, rigid wrist and complain of pain in their hands. Pain is not required for technique, they would be better served getting a teacher or a book that discusses technique rather than a group of exercise that does not tell what to do, how to do it or more importantly how it should feel.

 

That was, by far, the dumbest response I've ever read. So if the best pianists doesn't need to practice technique, then none else needs to either? I don't follow you..

No,  the best pianist practice technique, just not mindless, pointless, and repetitive Hanon exercises. Repertoire is filled with all the technique exercises you would ever need and the best pianist can create their own exercises to achieve musical goals, teach others, and play repertoire. Have never played Hanon exercises in a Mozart piano concerto? If you wanted to learn finger dexterity why not play a piece that has that. Most students don't have a specific goal, they just buy a Hanon book, develop bad technical habits that need to be unlearn, just because someone said to use it.

So you're saying this: There is no need to practice octaves before trying to rock Hungarian rhapsody no 6? There is no need to practice chromatic scales before attempting the Emperor Concerto?

Octave fingerings- 1 -5 ,1-5 , 1-5  or 1-4 for black keys.  Chromatic fingering- 3,1 3,1 except on the half-steps on the white keys  where you play 1,2. Did you really need a Hanon to tell you that. I have fourth grade students who pick that up 5 minutes after showing them. With a little practice they can do it up and down the keyboard at a reasonable speed. I don't teach them octaves cause they don't need them for hand span and their music does not require it. If I did, they would get it pretty rapidly to. If you know they right motions why eles would you need to do it everyday for the rest of your life? Students can easily learned all that from a teacher, technique book, or how about this ....The music! The fingering is printed. You can practice all the octaves you want in Hanon, the only way you would learn the octaves in that piece, ( which I have done) is to actually get the piece and practice. Hanon does octaves as scales. What makes octaves technically difficulty is accuracy in leaping, velocity and dexterity. You can do practice the octaves all the Hanon you want but if your arms are locked, fingers tense while you do this you could injure you hand( carpel tunnel) and you wont reach that goal.

If you knew even a slightly bit music history, you'd know that Czerny was a student of Beethoven. He obviously got his stupid technical exercises from some wanker who thought he knew something. And then, Czerny was the teacher of Franz Liszt. Liszt spent hours on practicing scales, thirds, sixth, leaps, arpeggios-exercises that Czerny had written.

.

Actually I have studied Music History for years. Being that I was a piano major and music ed major yes I do actually know Czerny was a student of Beethoven which is exactly why I made my point. In my post i asked what did Beethoven and Mozart practice. Mozart sure did not spend hours banging out scales and pointless exercises and neither did Beethoven. Mozart and Beethoven were both some of the greatest pianist who ever lived without Hanon. I doubt Czerny spent money to learn from Beethoven how to play Hanon exercises but real music. If you remember your music history, Franz List did practice what Czerny gave him, and he hated it and rebelled because he wanted to play repertoire. He went on to became the world's greatest virtuosos, just a coincidence right?. Yes, Liszt later acknowledged Czerny as an inspiring piano teacher by instilling technique in him which is why he dedicated a set of etude to him. But there is something to be said that the great pianist arguably ever felt what Czerny was teaching was a waste of time. Liszt must have known what he was doing became he became a greater pianist with Czerny help not because of him.

I don't know how many times I've hear renowned teachers at master classes tell the students to do some (not several hours a day, but, say, an hour) technical exercises. They do that either because:
a) They are afraid of some competition, and wants to ruin as many careers as they possibly can..
or
b) They know it helps...


And last: You're saying that, by playing technical exercises, you wont understand technique? How is that even possible?

Exactly the give them technical exercises that are specific to what they need at that moment in their development. My point exactly. Did you ever attend a master class where they said go plan Hanon exercise 6 and play it until your hand hurts? NO! They show them how to do it, by using the right body movements. Is Hanon the best and only exercise for this....no because you can make any repertoire an exercise. Which is why Hanon is worthless. I was judging a piano competition and cannot tell you  how many students misplayed the fingerings of major scales. So yes, it is possible to play a technical exercise and not understand what you're doing. I was in a piano class where everyday we played Hanon but none of them could sight read, play with expression, establish strong abilities in technique. You many have the correct body motions but many students practice Hanon with tight restricted muscles, up held wrist, flat fingers, collapsing arches , locked elbows, slumped body positions, harsh unmusical tone. Is this the magic of Hanon..no I feel it is poor teaching or lack of information. Does Hanon mention anything about these concepts: the answer is a resounding no. You learn this information for specific exercises, teacher, or technique books.

 Before you label me a Hanon hater consider the source. I started by teaching myself piano and yes I went through most of the Hanon exercises. I have actually assigned specific Hanon exercises every now and then. But not the whole book. Why does a beginner who is having difficulty counting, maintaing posture, reading notes, or playing with expression need Hanon octave exercises. Hanon does not help with that, experience with real music does. The advance student-unless he/she is playing a piece that requires it ...why do they need Hanon for? People who " benefit" from doing exercise could learn every they need by one of the other options. If you throw a student a closet with Hanon , the will not come out a Liszt-sounding pianist...sorry but it is true.  However if you threw a student in closet with a dvd of piano technique, a teacher, some appropriate repertoire for their skill level,  the student will have a clue about what technique looks and feels like. Its just an opinion though....If you want to spend your valuable time repeating over and over again, repetitive dull exercise up and down the piano thinking this is the magic key to piano technique more power to you... It just sure didn't work for me and I haven't met anyone with top level technique who it did.

[thalbergmad]

If you want to spend your valuable time repeating over and over again, repetitive dull exercise up and down the piano thinking this is the magic key to piano technique more power to you... It just sure didn't work for me and I haven't met anyone with top level technique who it did.

I don't think anyone is suggesting it is the be all or end all of piano technique, just a possible aid that will assist some but not others.

Thal

[pianisten1989]

WALL OF TEXT!
Really, is that how you argue with someone? Hey, lets write an essay with 5 billion words, and no one will bother reading it if it starts with "I don't teach technique, I teach music".

Fine, I don't need to convince you about anything. If you think it's enough to know the fingerings of a scale to be able to play it perfectly, that's obviously your problem.. Though I do feel sorry for your students.. Oh well...

[gore234]

A beginner who has never touched the piano will notice that some of their fingers are stronger then other fingers when they do play the piano.  Some people have a stronger right hand and some have stronger left hands.  Hanon exercises are designed so that you can build strength in all your fingers.  You dont need to learn the whole book but you might overestimate your ability.  Some beginners have difficulty playing easy things like alberti bass in the left hand.  If your an advanced student, I would recommend playing some hanon exercises for just 5 mins as a warm up.  When playing hanon excersizes for the first time,  it takes time to read it and use the right fingering and then you practice to build up speed and accuracy.  The book says to play each "NEW" excersize 5 times on the day you are learning it.  It doesn't say spend 30 mins or an hour on it.  You can spend 30 mins or an hour if you want to.  Some students take 5 months or a year to learn classical peices.  Someone could probably learn 100 excersizes faster than someone who learns one classical piece.  With that much excersize, wouldn't they beable to learn classical peices faster?

Mozart and Beethoven were child prodigies so why are we trying to compare ourselves to them. They grew up in a time with no tv, internet or video games.
If someone really wants to push themself to be the next mozart or beethoven then why not practice 12 hours a day 7 days a week or more?

[mcdiddy1]

I don't think anyone is suggesting it is the be all or end all of piano technique, just a possible aid that will assist some but not others.

Thal

I agree with you, what I am against is some people put so much emphasis - practicing 1-2 hours on Hanon and all I am saying is Hanon does not scratch the surface of piano technique and can easily be abused( which is a common complaint by many on this site)

WALL OF TEXT!
Really, is that how you argue with someone? Hey, lets write an essay with 5 billion words, and no one will bother reading it if it starts with "I don't teach technique, I teach music".

No, I am not really arguing just stating why I believe Hanon is pointless and explained the reasons why. Someone called it a dumb statement and I just stated evidence why I believe it.

Honestly I was just scratching the surface of why it is not useful. If no one bothers to read it, its cool doesn't really bother me. I just state my beliefs until someone can prove me wrong and then I might change them.

 I really feel this is how you grow as a teacher by constantly finding ways to better yourself and grow. I personally don't believe in don't teach technique, I teach music statement.

I believe technique is the front door to musicianship so I teach technique all the time. Not sure what that statement had to do with anything.

Fine, I don't need to convince you about anything. If you think it's enough to know the fingerings of a scale to be able to play it perfectly, that's obviously your problem.. Though I do feel sorry for your students.. Oh well...

Nope, thats over simplifying everything I said. Actually I teach technical techniques all the time, I just don't believe in wasting peoples time by having them devote most of their practice time to repetitive exercises that do not achieve what they were meant to achieve.

If you're talking about a chromatic scale-after keeping your fingers close to keys, curved and relaxed the fingering is the easy part ( or should be if your well-taught).

My point is Hanon does not teach you how to do this. I will say though there some  publication of Hanon that has more discussion on technique but most people do not use it unfortunately.-[

As far as my students, in my Jazz class, we warm-up with scales every class, private students playing Revolutionary etude, Prelude in g minor, Beethoven sonatas,Debussy, Mozart, Bach, without the supposed magic of Hanon. There a waiting list to take with me, I keep getting referred by other students, and my schedule is full. I think my students are doing just fine and don't seem to be losing sleep by repeating Hanon exercises everyday.

A beginner who has never touched the piano will notice that some of their fingers are stronger then other fingers when they do play the piano.  Hanon exercises are designed so that you can build strength in all your fingers. 

Good point , beginners will discover some fingers play easier because they are more independent and not as co dependent as the fourth finger is. For a student who has difficulty coordination and dexterity, I do believe Hanon has some benefit. We definitely agree on that.

Some students take 5 months or a year to learn classical pieces.  Someone could probably learn 100 exercises faster than someone who learns one classical piece.  With that much exercises, wouldn't they be able to learn classical pieces faster?

I takes someone 5 months to a year to learn one piece? That sounds like a person who has problems with practice or is playing a piece beyond their level. I would argue you could learn if you are playing the right level you could learn maybe 10 to 12 pieces if you new how to practice efficiently. It would depend on how the practice the exercise.

If you are reinforcing errors in your playing of exercises, if would have the opposite effect. Drilling technical drills in an unmusical way is not short cut to musical artistry.

 Wouldn't you want to make music rather than drilling?

It is like trying to learn how to dance by just running. Yes, you will get better at speed and being in shape, but you won't be able to dance until you learn the right body movements. I feel it is lazy teaching to assign an exercise rather than breaking down the technical difficulties for the student.

Mozart and Beethoven were child prodigies so why are we trying to compare ourselves to them. They grew up in a time with no tv, internet or video games.
If someone really wants to push themselves to be the next Mozart or Beethoven then why not practice 12 hours a day 7 days a week or more?

I agree we should not emulate them because they were definitely not characters I would want to emulate. But we can and should learn from what the great masters did to reach musical artistry.

True there is less time to practice because of distractions of tv, internet and video games. So doesn't that mean we should spend our time more efficiently and not waste it by doing repetitive exercises?

If Mozart and Beethoven were alive maybe they would discover more efficient ways besides practicing as much as they do. With all of the new information about piano technique, I believe they would be things differently.

 I seriously doubt Mozart and Beethoven would be handing out Hanon exercise to their students, don't you? I would imagine them composing beautiful etudes with musical content( well maybe Mozart, Beethoven had a huge temper and may be to arrogant to write an exercise for a student). I But yea ...in short
 
12 hour a day practice/ Hanon exercise/ reinforcing bad technique/ lack of musical content/ wasting time=Bad

shorter sessions/ clear musical goals/musically rich content/ correct technique/ simple, yet appropriate repertoire/ saving time =good

[gerryjay]

With that much excersize, wouldn't they be able to learn classical peices faster?

Dear Gore,
I don't know what are your empirical data, but based on my own pedagogical experiments and on what I did read all of those years, the answer to your question is very clear: no. Actually, they have more problems learning after a good, old, brain-washing Hanon. I think there are a few explanations to this fact.

1. Hanon premises are wrong, which leads to a faulty piano pedagogy. It results, obviously enough, in misconcepted and mistargeted exercises.

2. The way Hanon suggests to use his own exercises - and the way it is normally used - makes everything even worse, because it leads to focusless (and preetty pointless) repetition. To be fair with him, he did spot the right problem - piano mechanics - but it treated it in a mechanical and positive way.

3. Of course, many good pianists did use Hanon. Some give it a credit, but I assure you that they developed a a perfect technique in spite of Hanon.

4. About my own students, there is an interesting feature: those who used Hanon have serious issues with focus, a couple developed unsolvable technical problems and I feel lucky to never send any of them to the hospital. On the other hand, with the ones I don't use (which occurs for a bunch of years already), don't have those shortcomings and have all the technique they need.

5. To be fair, I knew one or two fellows that might have developed good technique with a consistent use of Hanon and - then - it is possible to be useful for one case in a million. But the result is not that good to consider the risks and to use precious time with it.

Best regards,
Jay.

[gerryjay]

Post script, to the original poster, and about the thread itself (If not Hanon nor Czerny then what?):

You don't need recipes: you need creativity. That is what technique is all about. Why do you want to have, let's say, very fast scales on your belt? I assume you want to use them in a piece you want to play. So, use this piece (or a group of pieces) to develop the precise exercises and routines that will make you play that with ease and with the result you want. If you are a student, find a teacher: that's her/his job!

In a single phrase: technique is developed while you play anything. Focus on what you are doing and use your ingenuity, and you will be fine (with or without hanons, czernies, or the like).

[bachbrahmsschubert]

In my experience, Hanon had its uses, but I refuse to treat it like the holy grail of piano technique. If you have a good teacher, ANY technique book will serve its use. If you don't have a good teacher, well, they may be a waste of time and even force you into bad habits. Bad technique habits take weeks to master and years to undo. I DO NOT recommend ANY technique books to students who do not have private piano teachers.

In my opinion, you really only need Bach. From Bach, you will learn everything. I don't see the point in drumming out Hanon exercises when great technique can be achieved through a single composer.

[gerryjay]

In my opinion, you really only need Bach. From Bach, you will learn everything.

That's quite a point. An unabridged Bach background is the most important part of a solid piano - and musical, for that matter - study.
Best regards,
Jay.

[keyboardclass]

Unabridged Chopin maybe.  Bach is only good for Bach-like passages.

[nyiregyhazi]

Easy answer to the question.....Do the best pianist in the world spend 2 hours..or even 30 minutes doing Hanon...even as warm-ups. No they don't. If they didn't need them, why would we.

Because we're not the best pianist in the world? That's not a very hard question to answer.

[gerryjay]

Unabridged Chopin maybe.  Bach is only good for Bach-like passages.

Well, I am not advocating the unabridged anything, but Bach is far more important than that because it teaches you to have control. That's all you need to play the piano. Of course, that's just my opinion and it was not my background (unfortunately, my teachers do not believe that much in Bach and it was in my conservatory some sort of Bach-related trauma among students). However, my students have a heavy component of Bach in their studies and it works.
Best regards,
Jay.

[lostinidlewonder]

Hanon and Czerny are excellent resources for piano study and to say they are worthless is somewhat short sighted. It ignores the art of using these resources i.e. finding parts which are of interest for the individual student AND provides information relevant to their musical training. Sure Czerny has many boring pieces but does that diminish using it in effective ways for sight reading training? Do we ignore the Czerny pieces that actually interest our ears? Why not explore his works you may find wonderful gems.

If the music totally is uninteresting for you and you are self taught then ignore it you may come back to it some day. If your teacher submits you to it ensure they personalize the piece for you, that is make you understand what you are exactly learning from the work and why it is relevant for you to learn (you should ensure that you generally like a piece though, I know some students submit themselves to anything their teacher throws at them but in all honesty one should have a musical taste, there are many paths through music and it should be based on your own enjoyment more than merely wanting to become a master at the instrument which is much less sincere approach and doesn't fuel ones desire to work towards it really.)

I have taught several students who claim to have been taught Hanon for years only to realize that their previous teacher only taught them the notes and ensured that the notes where even, ignoring their physical efficiency, control and balance. The students usually look at me confused when I mention to them what does their hand feel like when they play a passage, once they start thinking about parts of their hand and how it is moving then they can start understanding how to use Hanon to observe/practice technical efficiency in a simplistic model. Generally more beneficial for Beginners/Intermediates.

As advanced students who are uninterested in Hanon or Czerny I would say you must be able to play the content of these works otherwise there is something missing in your musical toolbox. I rarely learned any Mozart until much later in my piano playing life but I had no problems learning the music even though I had little experience playing him. This is an important indicator that your musical path has allowed you to respond to situations effectively and not required you to recreate the wheel each time. There are many paths in music and we can actually solve problems that we have never attempted simply because we have so much other experience to draw from. Hanon might not be used to acquire any technique for more experienced pianists but certainly can be used to test if you can achieve certain patterns, if you can do it then never look at it again.

[keyboardclass]

Well, I am not advocating the unabridged anything, but Bach is far more important than that because it teaches you to have control.

Actually I'd say he's also good for Beethoven but play some Beethoven with Bach technique and you could well get injured.

[mcdiddy1]

Because we're not the best pianist in the world? That's not a very hard question to answer.

I brought that up because every advanced pianist starts off as a beginner.

Like the people who use Hanon lack the coordination to play both hands together, no knowledge of technique, and not idea about musical notation. They do not come our of the womb gifted and talented. In order to reach their highest potential many of them do something the average pianist does not. Therefore, we could learn from them.

I have talked to concert pianist about they're training and from what I gathered they learned technique from a huge amount of practice and learning an extensive and broad repertoire.

Never met a great pianist who relied on Hanon and Czerny and never will.

Doing the same thing and expecting a different result is insanity. So why do people continue to do repetitive Hanon exercises expecting for them they will reach their highest potential when it has not ever worked??? Sure, there is some benefit but you will never get past a very unmusical, remedial and beginner level if you rely on it so why do people love it so much??  Too each his own.....

Hanon might not be used to acquire any technique for more experienced pianists but certainly can be used to test if you can achieve certain patterns, if you can do it then never look at it again.

Exactly, I dont think Hanon should be banished, just not relied on . I would think technique from Hanon should be 5 to 10 percent, the rest coming from scales, repertoire, learning from others players and other resources.

[bachbrahmsschubert]

Unabridged Chopin maybe.  Bach is only good for Bach-like passages.

I couldn't disagree with this more.

If Bach is only good for Bach-like passages, why do classical musicians bother with other technique books at all? With that mentality, Czerny etudes are only good for Czerny-like passages. Which is what, exactly? Scales and arpeggios that you easily find in every piece by Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven.

Not to discount Mr. Czerny as a pianist and composer, there are just better and more efficient composers to select from. The same can be said for Hanon. There is not one exercise in Hanon that you can't also learn from Bach. Not only do you get the necessary finger training, the student grows from playing a true piece of music and not a technical exercise.

Personally, the only technique book I've truly studied is Pischna. I am also a big fan of Dohnanyi. Though one has to be very careful not to injure themselves with those ungodly finger stretching exercises.

[keyboardclass]

So you think Bach technique will get you the tenths in Beethoven's op 54? and without injury?

[gerryjay]

Not to discount Mr. Czerny as a pianist and composer, there are just better and more efficient composers to select from. The same can be said for Hanon. There is not one exercise in Hanon that you can't also learn from Bach. Not only do you get the necessary finger training, the student grows from playing a true piece of music and not a technical exercise.

Dear BBS,
(since we are in the superlatives) I couldn't agree with you more. Of course Czerny and Hanon can work. Basically, anything can work given a proper situation and time. Nevertheless, yours is the point: efficiency.

As fas as Bach is concerned, he is the composer who contributes the most to any keyboard player. You can learn through his music from the absolute zero to an astonishing level of virtuosity.

(to be continued)

[gerryjay]

So you think Bach technique will get you the tenths in Beethoven's op 54? and without injury?

Dear KC,
what tenths are you talking about? The only portion of this sonata - that is quite manageable, imho - that could turn into a problem are the octaves (e.g., bars 25-29), which normally use a wrist/forearm technique that is foreign to Bach's music. In that sense, I agree with you: playing these tenths with a straight Bach technique would do no good for the pianist or for the sonata.

Nevertheless, read what I wrote above: Bach teaches you to have control. This means to have discipline and to solve every single aspect of notation-technique-expression-usw. Why? Because when you don't do that, his music becomes quite harsh - the single motive why so many students don't like him.

When you face something new (something that was created after Bach's time) you simply use these things that Bach's music taught you and you are fine. If we are really talking about the passage I quote from this sonata, I'd say we have an example of the procedure.

Finally, other composers (Schumann, Bartok) could do the same trick. However, Bach do it better and faster. An early pianist who goes all through the 15 inventions will eat for breakfast anything else that is the same level or slightly above. If you don't believe, pick one of your students and try it. It's amazing to see the difference.

Baroque regards,
Jay.

[keyboardclass]

When you face something new (something that was created after Bach's time) you simply use these things that Bach's music taught you and you are fine. If we are really talking about the passage I quote from this sonata, I'd say we have an example of the procedure.

Sorry, I wrote 'octaves' then got confused with op 90 - another bit of Beethoven for which Bach technique is of no help to you - and changed it to tenths.  The assumption above just doesn't make sense.  All the Bach knowledge in the world won't lead you to the solution to the Beethoven techniques, let alone Chopin.

[nyiregyhazi]

Never met a great pianist who relied on Hanon and Czerny and never will.

Pianists in Russia used to have to play the entire Hanon before they were admitted entrance to proper Conservatoires. I don't know if this still goes on, but it used to be standard.

[gerryjay]

Sorry, I wrote 'octaves' then got confused with op 90 - another bit of Beethoven for which Bach technique is of no help to you - and changed it to tenths.  The assumption above just doesn't make sense.  All the Bach knowledge in the world won't lead you to the solution to the Beethoven techniques, let alone Chopin.

Dear KC,
it is not a matter of making sense or not: it works that way. I can provide you some views to stand for my point (talk about proof would be an overstatement):
1. technique itself developed this way. Beethoven is as much based on Bach as Chopin is based on both the elder. It leads to another thread - a current one - about "the most difficult work ever". I'll not dig into that, but I must assure that it was not composed by Bach. Nor Beethoven. Nor Chopin. Piano is a living thing and thus it develops itself constantly.

2. if we rationalize this premise through an epistemologic foundation, we can easily explain why a Bach foundation leads to a deeper Beethoven-related technique. As I said before, and I will say it again, this octave passage is a proper example of how you can apply Bach to Beethoven. Notice, please, that I'm not saying that you use the same technique, but the same principle of technique construction. It is a much more complex level than playing the octaves themselves, because it explains how you can play a single octave, and then, how you can solve any octave-passage you need.

3. it's me writing that - so, take it with a grain of salt - but I have had many students that developed their piano technique with Bach alone. I mean, no hanons, czernies, scales, etc. Just Bach and whatever repertoire they wanted (sometimes, Bach as well ). In a comparison with my previous experience - based on a much more traditional approach - I am talking about two different worlds. Of course, I think I did improve as well, but I can't claim the results, because using Bach that much is nothing new.

4. And that's my final remark. From composers to pianists, from conservatories in Italy to postgraduates in the US, there are many conceptions of the piano, and many syllabi and whatsoever. A single point in common: Bach's music. From the very beggining to almost the very end. Neither Beethoven nor Chopin can offer that, and other composers who can are not that overspread (you can include Schumann in the list, because there are certain places that are whipping him out of the ring...

I rest my case . Of course, we can discuss it back and forth and we will only reach a conclusion: use what do work best. The rest is theoretical rubbish.

Best regards,
Jay.

[gerryjay]

Pianists in Russia used to have to play the entire Hanon before they were admitted entrance to proper Conservatoires. I don't know if this still goes on, but it used to be standard.

Sometime ago there was a whole thread about the Russian Piano School (https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=1775.0). It worth reading.

[mcdiddy1]

Pianists in Russia used to have to play the entire Hanon before they were admitted entrance to proper Conservatoires. I don't know if this still goes on, but it used to be standard.

Don't know which Conservatory you are talking about but listening to hundreds of pianist playing the entire Hanon book is pretty doubtful. I would imagine they pick a couple of excersie, which is appropriate.

 It I had piano auditions I would use Hanon as a test of finger dexterity also. Although Hanon would be a part, I would imagine most of audition would based on scales and repertoire.

Because scales are included in Hanon they may say they need to learn the entire Hanon but they really mean "they need to be able to play all their scales" like all pianist should be able to.

If all that was required was playing Hanon ,I would imagine there would be a high drop out rate because if they did not study repertoire their in for a shock when faced with technical compositions from Bach and Beethoven which require independence of both hands and no longer imitation of Hanon.

 Keyword you said was USED to be a standard. I hope your right and they keep Hanon in the past where it belongs and moved on to better, modern ways to checking musical skills.

[keyboardclass]

The only Russian trained pianist I know is an alcoholic.  Maybe there's a connection.

[nyiregyhazi]

Don't know which Conservatory you are talking about but listening to hundreds of pianist playing the entire Hanon book is pretty doubtful. I would imagine they pick a couple of excersie, which is appropriate.

I don't think there's much value in tackling light speculation with even greater speculation. What I do know for certain though is that countless virtuosos of the past went through such rigorous training. I have a student from Russia and from what he's told me, it doesn't sound especially different today, in terms of how young pianists are brought up.

PS. I didn't say they played the whole thing in auditions and neither did I refer to "only" playing Hanon. I said that they had to work on the whole thing in preparatory schools.

[mcdiddy1]

I don't think there's much value in tackling light speculation with even greater speculation. What I do know for certain though is that countless virtuosos of the past went through such rigorous training. I have a student from Russia and from what he's told me, it doesn't sound especially different today, in terms of how young pianists are brought up.

PS. I didn't say they played the whole thing in auditions and neither did I refer to "only" playing Hanon. I said that they had to work on the whole thing in preparatory schools.

Point taken but what is important is results. Do the students leave appreciation for music and acquired a various set of musical skills?

 I never been to Russia, but I know there are different schools with different philosophies. One may emphasis Hanon and the other uses wonderful easy pieces of Bach, Bartok, Beethoven. The students who receive their learning of technique from pieces would be better suited for developing their skills in the future.

The countless virtuoso succeed by in spite of this time of training not because of it. Hard working persistent people become skilled at the piano. That information is not new and people can succeed at the piano despite ineffective exercises.

What about the hundreds of students who quit because they lost their love of music because they could not play exercise 20 accurately? If there in a handful of virtuosos and hundreds probably thousands who loss passion for music I would argue that method is not worth it.

[nyiregyhazi]

Point taken but what is important is results. Do the students leave appreciation for music and acquired a various set of musical skills?

 I never been to Russia, but I know there are different schools with different philosophies. One may emphasis Hanon and the other uses wonderful easy pieces of Bach, Bartok, Beethoven. The students who receive their learning of technique from pieces would be better suited for developing their skills in the future.

Maybe, but from what I understand it is standard to use both. Regarding virtuosos who don't take this route, where are the pianists today who can breeze through the Rachmaninoff 3rd at the proper tempos? There are very few. I'm not convinced modern technique is necessarily so good as people think today. There are lot of very solid pianists but very few who display true facility of the kind the greatest artists of all time had. Most just play accurately and competently- not with real ease. Having done this stuff and forgotten about it may have been invaluable to many performers.

[gerryjay]

The only Russian trained pianist I know is an alcoholic.  Maybe there's a connection.

Very difficult to stand on the line when there are so many perfect vodkas to drink!

Let me check my freezer, btw...

[mcdiddy1]

Maybe, but from what I understand it is standard to use both. Regarding virtuosos who don't take this route, where are the pianists today who can breeze through the Rachmaninoff 3rd at the proper tempos? There are very few. I'm not convinced modern technique is necessarily so good as people think today. There are lot of very solid pianists but very few who display true facility of the kind the greatest artists of all time had. Most just play accurately and competently- not with real ease. Having done this stuff and forgotten about it may have been invaluable to many performers.

Makes sense. The ability to play things with ease has more to do with practice and work habits and the experience of playing concertos all the time. My old piano teacher was a concert pianist who sight read pretty much everything with relative ease and she is not even the best in the world.

 The ability to play with great ease I feel is an illusion. Sometimes pianist give the illusion something is hard when it really is not for them and sometimes the music is difficult and they make it appear it is not. If you can play accurately, competently, and musically then you know the piece regardless of how you look like.

The repertoire has a great deal of exercises built in them. In one of the pieces I am working on there is a G# diminished chord that begins in the left and and begins on a different note in the left. I have practices hand separate, hands together, fast, slow, changing rhythms and can play it accurately though. The thing is I have never seen this exercise printed in any book. I honest learned the most about diminished chords from Beethoven and  playing arpeggios that begin on a different note from Chopin Etudes. If I open Hanon, there is nothing like that in there.  My old piano teacher said at the age of 13 she learned to play all 32 Beethoven Sonatas. If you look at the prestissimo sections of the Walstein the final C major section would blow anything in Czerny and Hanon out of the water.