One thing i noticed about some piano students in school

[rich2k4]

I noticed a bunch of them can play really complicated things with sheet music, but then if you tell them to vamp on a I vi II V progression in A for example, they look at you like you are speaking gibberish. Especially if you tell them to play around with that progression and improvise over it.

Is this a result of bad teaching? Seems like there are a bunch of pianists who are completely lost without sheet music.

Now if you play purely for enjoyment and don't care for chords, etc thats fine.  However I would think that if one is going to school for piano, they'd be able to be self sufficient on the instrument and be an actual musician.  But sometimes, that's not the case

[faulty_damper]

It's not jazz they are studying.

[Bob]

It's the split between classical and jazz. 

[rich2k4]

being well versed in music theory and being self sufficient on your instrument doesn't = jazz

[jesc]

Improvisation does not necessarily mean jazz. I improvise a lot when I'm bored on the piano. I improvise music I've learned by ear. When I feel up to it I jumble up some random chords and try to make "pleasant" music out of it (feels like a puzzle game to me). The music I make is laden with arpeggios, scales, and trills which churn out a classical feel.  

The problem I have when I'm learning classical music is that I'm unconsciously filling up notes in the long run. This is very subtle but quite a big problem for me. For example, the concerto I'm memorizing right now, I have to go through it regularly to make sure I didn't make up any notes.

(to date, the worst crime I committed was when I was learning Gnomenreigen. I got lazy on the last part and conjured out of thin air a different version of the scales near the end)

[vandermozart3]

I agree!! It's quite depressing

There's a video somewhere of Horowitz playing some cool piece. The person taping him says "I have no idea what he's playing". Horowitz replies, "I'm improvising. I'm still a musician!"

I think that says it all?

[pianisten1989]

It's not jazz they are studying.

Yeah, cause there has never been anything like classical improv...

[mcdiddy1]

Probably because the school are more focused on performance rather than students actually knowing knowing the the way music is structured and created. Schools are looking for validation of a music program to keep its finding and are not impressed by improvisation or if the students really understand harmony. They just want to see the kids sound good. As someone who has tried to teach theory and improv, it is challenging to teach students theory and expect them to go practice their piece unless they are very motivated to learn it. Theory class is best taught by a class devoted to that only but many schools are not willing to give up that kind of money for music unfortunatly.

[faulty_damper]

If you were to say to me "I vi II V progression in A", it would take some time before I know what you mean because this is not common speak except in a theory class; I'd have to convert the numerals into something more familiar, solfege (do, la, fa, sol), and convert solfege into depressing keys.

The way you asked it makes the assumption that classical piano studies uses this kind of language with regularity - it isn't.  It is very common in jazz studies but not in classical performance study.

they look at you like you are speaking gibberish

Because you are. 

[lelle]

To me it'd be easier if you said "tonic, dominant" etc

[floydcramerfan]

Oh, wordy mcWord.  I noticed that a lot when I started college.  I thought that since I was studying music, I would have the opportunity to jam with people because in my experience at the School for the Blind, the really good piano players could play by ear as well as classical, and actually, most of us were taught to play by ear.  I was in for a rude awakening when I got to college.  The only people who would jam with me were the recording industry majors and people who just played for fun.  I guess I didn't realize there were people who only played classical.

[gore234]

I have a twin brother who plays guitar really good and rather than jam together, we try to compose together.  It depends on what style of music you want to play.  Someone who plays piano and does not play guitar would have to ask the guitar player what he is playing unless you are jamming in a simple chord progression.  Jamming and improvising over chord progressions can sound good and are fun but I don't think it would have a classical feel or even a metal feel to it.  I think jamming and improvising on the spot is done mostly by jazz musicians and other types of musican in my opinion.  Everyone has their own opinion and everyone jams and plays together differently.  When a marching Band plays together they wait on the conductor to start them and they sightread and play at the same time.  People in high school marching bands normally are just playing because they want to play and are not serious musicans (Not all).  People playing jazz know alot more theory and they need to know theory to play jazz because of the complexity of it.  Classical music is hard because of technique and other reasons. Piano players playing piano sonatas play alone and practice alone.   If you put a classical piano player together with a blues guitar player and expect them to start jamming right away, it's not going to happen unless some organizing is done first.  Some one who can play classical, jazz, ragtime, blues, and plays more than 3 instruments and can compose would be an awesome musican but some I'd rather be a master of one and not a Jack of all trades.  I guess that depends on how fast you can learn and master things.

[faulty_damper]

Most music programs on the classical performance side do not have any class or requirement for improvisation.  As a result, it is not a skill that is learned by most classical music students.  The emphasis is exclusively performance of written repertoire. 

[mcdiddy1]

Oh, wordy mcWord.  I noticed that a lot when I started college.  I thought that since I was studying music, I would have the opportunity to jam with people because in my experience at the School for the Blind, the really good piano players could play by ear as well as classical, and actually, most of us were taught to play by ear.  I was in for a rude awakening when I got to college.  The only people who would jam with me were the recording industry majors and people who just played for fun.  I guess I didn't realize there were people who only played classical.

Lol is "Mcwordy"  supposed to be me? Anyways, I agree with you unfortunatly many college players are uncomfortable playing by ear because of their back ground.

 

Most music programs on the classical performance side do not have any class or requirement for improvisation.  As a result, it is not a skill that is learned by most classical music students.  The emphasis is exclusively performance of written repertoire. 

Yes, I wish it was more encouraged in the school it is really an important of music making .

[nanabush]

I notice that, as well as students playing loads of music, but having no opinion on it!  Great technique, and will play anything you throw at them, but you can't have an intelligent conversation with them!  I was trying to explain to this girl how the Rachmaninoff Etude Op 39 #6 had the 'red riding hood story' and she kept saying she's never heard the piece.  Another girl had never heard of Ravel!!! This is a university for the love of god!

It's also hilarious if you ask a classical student to improvise on ANY chord progression for that matter (I'm generalizing, a lot of classical pianists can improvise), and they just play root position triads.  There's no curiosity among so many students!  They play what they are given, and that is it.  Half of the reason I play the piano is because after taking so many years of lessons, I like what I'm able to come up with on the spot 

[floydcramerfan]

Wordy mcWord is just an expression I use sometimes, lol.  I guess I can see that, though.  I've heard stories from older students from my school that had teachers who would get mad or some would even slap them for playing by ear or improvising.  Thankfully, my teacher encouraged it, but she did have a time trying to get me to follow scores because I don't like being told how to play.  As long as she could tell we had practiced what she wanted us to learn, though, she didn't care what else we played.  I had the greatest teacher.  Even though she didn't dig the country stuff I played, she respected that it was what I liked to play.  If I would have had one of those teachers who insisted I only play classical, I would have probably quit piano.

[nanabush]

I agree; having a motivating teacher who also gives you some 'breathing room' is amazing.  For someone whose final goal isn't to be a concert pianist (I'm not using that as the peak of a musical career, just one of MANY choices available), experimenting with different styles can stimulate a creative side that a teacher might not be able to 'teach you'. 

[delark]

Ive always thought that real musicians are those capable of improvisation, even when my friends tell me i know more about music because i used to go to the conservatory i always tell them theyre wrong.
I have even composed a couple of pieces javascript:void(0); and still I dont enjoy improvising at all because of my lack of knowledge.
Doing a little reserch ive found that it has been proved that personality influences in the way of learning (as teachers may understand well xD) so it may depend on personality if someone could or couldnt improvise.
Another thing ive noticed because of expirience is that those that are good improvising arent so good performing, this may be linked to a better motor memory.
and all ive said its just my opinion.

[venik]

Didn't liszt improvise hungarian rhapsody in 2 or something? or Atleast use it as a basis of improv?

Either way i know he improvised, and one time asked a girl playing his music why she didn't improvise off the sheet music.

Jazz is almost pure improv, but that does not mean it is the only venue of improv.

[dcstudio]

the fact that I could play jazz when I went to music school and those monster classical players couldn't always made me quite happy....      I have always been able to work when a lot of those monster players I went to school with now work in IT.   

[ramyfishler]

Do movie actors have to know about script writing? about fliming angles and the structure of the plot? of course they do. Do they have to writers by their selves or be able to improvise text and write interesting stories by themselves? of course not! they should only know what they need in order to perform the most convincing and meaningful act.
Same goes for classical piansts. We have to know what we are playing we have to know the theory, and try to analyze and understand the music the best we can. for example we should know that we are playing a dominant, and feel that it is "going to" the tonic, because this understanding helps us to put more meaning to our playing. but we don't have to be able to improvise.
As for me, When I do improvise, I don't trouble myself with thinking about chords and scales, Although I know the theory. I usualy play "whites only" or "free style" (which could sound auful I admit) but this how classical musicians think, we don't like to think so much when we're paying. we just want to play and feel the music.

[dcstudio]

Do movie actors have to know about script writing? about fliming angles and the structure of the plot? of course they do. Do they have to writers by their selves or be able to improvise text and write interesting stories by themselves? of course not! they should only know what they need in order to perform the most convincing and meaningful act.
Same goes for classical piansts. We have to know what we are playing we have to know the theory, and try to analyze and understand the music the best we can. for example we should know that we are playing a dominant, and feel that it is "going to" the tonic, because this understanding helps us to put more meaning to our playing. but we don't have to be able to improvise.
As for me, When I do improvise, I don't trouble myself with thinking about chords and scales, Although I know the theory. I usualy play "whites only" or "free style" (which could sound auful I admit) but this how classical musicians think, we don't like to think so much when we're paying. we just want to play and feel the music.

lol..funny, it still makes me happy.  

ok, that was rude.  not really a valid "actor" analogy.  because I play jazz and you play classical (which I do as well, btw     does not make you and "actor" and me a script writer--we are both actors--but your "acting" is serious only, whereas I can easily do either "serious" or "comedy"--and I earn a living playing both.  I can step into your world my very young friend, but you are not yet capable of surviving in mine.
and btw as far as "not having to think"  ---I am MUCH freer to "feel" the music and "not think" in Jazz.  I have enough exp. in both genres to know that.  You cannot yet say whether jazz is "free" or not because you can't play it--  and that, is what got me through music school.   sorry, I still have a bit of music school neurosis, after all these years.  I don't mean to be so harsh, but classical players drive me crazy trying to tell me how they think it "feels" to play jazz.  I have a student with a masters in performance trying desperately to learn to improvise--and paying me to teach her.  she's not the first or only classically trained pianist I've met who didn't SERIOUSLY regret not learning how to improvise.  

and you are on the right track in learning to improvise with your "white key" thing that you think sounds awful--it's your classically trained brain telling you that it sounds bad, not your chops. 
best of luck to you in your musical pursuits.  

[pbryld]

Didn't liszt improvise hungarian rhapsody in 2 or something? or Atleast use it as a basis of improv?

Either way i know he improvised, and one time asked a girl playing his music why she didn't improvise off the sheet music.

Jazz is almost pure improv, but that does not mean it is the only venue of improv.

There is a cadenza in Hungarian Rhapsody no. 2.

[sheedahg]

Ive always thought that real musicians are those capable of improvisation, even when my friends tell me i know more about music because i used to go to the conservatory i always tell them theyre wrong.
I have even composed a couple of pieces javascript:void(0); and still I dont enjoy improvising at all because of my lack of knowledge.
Doing a little reserch ive found that it has been proved that personality influences in the way of learning (as teachers may understand well xD) so it may depend on personality if someone could or couldnt improvise.
Another thing ive noticed because of expirience is that those that are good improvising arent so good performing, this may be linked to a better motor memory.
and all ive said its just my opinion.

I sort of agree with you - sometimes the ability to improvise on the spot may be a personality thing.  My father was very much into Charlie Parker, Art Tatum, Thelonius Monk, and Oscar Peterson and I remember just listening to those LPs over and over again when I was a kid.  When he finally put me into a music conservatory, he made sure that I had a classically trained jazz pianist so I could learn how to improvise and become a female version of OP or TM.  Despite of the years of my teacher trying to steer me away from the Chopin and try to do some improve on a jazz tune, I never had the knack for improv. While a lot of things I write have that classical/jazz fusion style (much to my theory professors' dismay), it takes me a bit to process what's going on in a jam session so what I play sounds so forced and...off.  It doesn't make me any less of a "real" musician, but after years of learning from a jazz pianist, it may not be for me (I still love listening to the masters though). 

However, I don't think that better improv= bad performance.