Theory of Technique is Dead

[nyiregyhazi]

"Luckily my fingers are attached to my body, and theoretically have 170 lbs at their disposal. Realistically, it is the weight of my elbow and forward in a completely untensed state. I would assume that any pianist was aware of this mechanic."

Oh, so now there is weight bearing down on a relaxed finger? And you are telling me that a "relaxed finger" is going to remain in position when there is an additional force bearing down on it. That isn't going to have the whole hand collapsing and then being dragged off the piano?You are confusing relaxation and COMFORT. As I stated before, I am saying there is nothing to relax FROM- unless you are compressing against the keybed in the first place by involving unnecessary pressure from the arm. You go straight into the position of comfort, in what I am referring to. We are both using the exact same effort to stop the finger collapsing. It's just that you refuse to acknowledge it.


"But not you I guess.There are many relaxed methods, which one are you talking about?"

The one where you literally relax the fingers, rather than simply move into comfortable balance.


 "No doubt you are doing it wrong if you came to the conclusion that dropping and bouncing is the best solution."

? Would you please read my posts before making any further replies? You seem to be arguing against somebody else entirely. What I pointed out was that if you follow YOUR explanation of a relaxed finger, THAT would bounce. A key does not settle against the bed unless something is keeping it there.

"First an obvious observation can be made, which is that:
If you aren't completely relaxed, then you have more mass.
If you are completely relaxed, then you have less mass."

This is perhaps the most bizarre claim of 'science' I have ever encountered.

"If I play this chord only using the knuckle and beyond, and you play this chord from the wrist on."

Where on earth did you pluck that from?  You post is riddled with these illogical and unfounded assumptions. How about if we both play from the knuckle- considering I never suggested anything about playing from the wrist? Please take the time to read my posts and stop arguing against a strawman.


"And finally, back to the trampoline thing:
A hand which hit's the ground going 10 m/s and bounces back up at 10 m/s has had a 20 m/s change in velocity. Comparing the energy of bouncing to crashing, a bouncing hand (all else equal, i.e not a comparison to my method) has *4 times* as much energy put into it.
KE = .5mv^2.
Double the change in velocity means quadruple the change in energy."

Assuming zero conservation of energy? That's a "bounce"? Did you honestly study engineering? Did you pass? These irrelevant figures aren't even accurately calculated. After contact with the key and bed absorbed the energy (even if it passed zero energy back and the muscles instigated the ascent- contrary to anything I suggested) the energy it would be carrying at 10 m/s upwards would be equal to that it initially had downwards. So these bizarre and irrelevant calculations (that are compromised by omission of countless important factors- eg. a hand can't instantly reach 10m/s upon ascent) ought to shows DOUBLE the input of energy- not quadruple. The equation should accurately contain the absolute velocity- not change in velocity. Where on earth did you study?

[keyboardclass]

Quite sincerely, i believe that understanding how to redirect momentum in such a way that notable impact is not even on the radar of possibility is the single most important issue in a healthy piano technique. Years of attempting the tension-release approach proved worthless to me.

That's just Matthay's 'don't keybed' poorly reframed.  If your attempts to acheive what certainly is 'the single most important issue'  proved worthless then it's quite obvious where the fault lay.

[nyiregyhazi]

That's just Matthay's 'don't keybed' poorly reframed.  If your attempts to acheive what certainly is 'the single most important issue'  proved worthless then it's quite obvious where the fault lay.

It's an explanation of what keybedding actually IS (or at least the type of keybedding that is bad)- seeing as Matthay failed to clarify. Matthay's explanation perpetuates the myth that you can bang it any old way if you relax after. Not so, sadly. If the arm causes a head-on landing, relaxation is futile. And we have your video illustration of what happens to the sound when a person tries to hold back from it. It's all about the direction and source of motion as you contact it- which Matthay failed to explain.

[keyboardclass]

And we have your video illustration of what happens to the sound when a person tries to hold back from it.

That's a physical impossibility - a DP is sampled sounds.

Matthay's explanation perpetuates the myth that you can bang it any old way if you relax after.

That certainly wasn't Matthay's view but It is mine.

[nyiregyhazi]

That's a physical impossibility - a DP is sampled sounds.

So, holding yourself back from going into the keys properly in passages that are supposed to be loud obviously wouldn't change the volume at which those sounds are triggered...

That certainly wasn't Matthay's view but It is mine.

A bit like how you can't be injured if you relax after running into a brick wall?

[keyboardclass]

So, holding yourself back from going into the keys properly in passages that are supposed to be loud obviously wouldn't change the volume at which those sounds are triggered...

And you know what volume I had it set at?

[nyiregyhazi]

And you know what volume I had it set at?

So your keyboard has no touch sensitivity? Funnily enough, the way you act upon the keys still affects the sound.

[keyboardclass]

So your keyboard has no touch sensitivity? Funnily enough, the way you act upon the keys still affects the sound.

None that affects the quality of the sound.  All the sounds are 100% superbly sampled by Yamaha!

Actually I must point out this edit from above.  It's the one time you agree with Matthay and I don't!:

Matthay's explanation perpetuates the myth that you can bang it any old way if you relax after.

That certainly wasn't Matthay's view but It is mine.

[nyiregyhazi]

None that affects the quality of the sound.  All the sounds are 100% superbly sampled by Yamaha!

Who said I'm talking about absolute tone? I'm talking about THE RESULT THAT IS HEARD when you play sounds together. If you think the way you move will have no effect on that, why not go ahead and turn off the touch sensitivity off on your keyboard? Are you blaming the thin and tentative sound of your performance on the person who made the samples?

[keyboardclass]

Are you blaming the thin and tentative sound of your performance on the person who made the samples?

If you hear such a thing it's the keyboard not me.  How you can possibly know the volume it was set at, the record volume and the level of compression is beyond me.  Even I don't know any of those for that recording!

[nyiregyhazi]

If you hear such a thing it's the keyboard not me.  How you can possibly know the volume it was set at, the record volume and the level of compression is beyond me.  Even I don't know any of those for that recording!

Sure, they were responsible for the uneven and excessively thin tone production. Perhaps you also blame them for the correspondingly tentative quality of movement on display and for the inaccurate execution of the notated rhythm?

[keyboardclass]

Sure, they were responsible for the uneven and excessively thin tone production.

Yes!  The tone was produced by them!  Maybe you're getting the point.  You are making totally subjective comments on a physical impossiblity.  Richard Black was right when he said using a DP for technique discussions was bizarre.  You're crazy for thinking there's any relevance.  Technique is about quality of sound not quantity.  DP's come with quality built in. 

[nyiregyhazi]

Yes!  The tone was produced by them!  Maybe you're getting the point.  You are making totally subjective comments on a physical impossiblity.  Richard Black was right when he said using a DP for technique discussions was bizarre.  You're crazy for thinking there's any relevance.  Technique is about quality of sound not quantity.  DP's come with that built in.  

The RELATIVE COMBINATION OF AND INTERACTION OF SOUNDS. If you don't think that matters in piano playing then go ahead and turn the touch-sensitivity off. Stop being so willfully obtuse- especially as you've said elsewhere that you won't even acknowledge absolute tone on real pianos.

[keyboardclass]

The RELATIVE COMBINATION OF AND INTERACTION OF SOUNDS. Stop being so willfully obtuse.

There is no interaction of sounds!  It's numbers in a computer chip!  You're crazy if you want to discuss creating tone on a DP.  I certanly won't.

[nyiregyhazi]

There is no interaction of sounds!  It's numbers in a computer chip!  You're crazy if you want to discuss creating tone on a DP.  I certanly won't.

Numbers that have nothing to do with the person playing the instrument? If it's only numbers, why are you uploading videos of yourself playing the number machine? Maybe I'm mistaken, but I certainly heard some sounds coming out of that machine and I can't help but feel that you had something to do with how those sounds came out. Is this why you never use a real piano? So you can make such pathetic excuses for your stiff technique and lack of control over the sound?

[keyboardclass]

Numbers that have nothing to do with the person playing the instrument? If it's only numbers, why are you uploading videos of yourself playing the number machine? Maybe I'm mistaken, but I certainly heard some sounds coming out of that machine and I can't help but feel that you had something to do with how those sounds came out. Is this why you never use a real piano? So you can make such pathetic excuses for your stiff technique and lack of control over the sound?

You are using your usual strategem of assuming your own subjective impressions, i.e. 'thin tone', as somehow a universal truth.  But this time it's built on a physical impossiblily!  The statement is wrong in the first place - a DP can't have a 'thin' tone.  All it can vary are the dynamics.   You know even less about acoustics than you do about mechanics (if that we're at all possible).  Thin tone?  Could just as well be worn capacitors!

[nyiregyhazi]

You are using your usual strategem of assuming your own subjective impressions, i.e. 'thin tone', as somehow a universal truth.  But this time it's built on a physical impossiblily!  The statement is wrong in the first place - a DP can't have a 'thin' tone.  All it can vary are the dynamics.   You know even less about acoustics than you do about mechanics (if that we're at all possible).

A thin tone refers to the fact that a forte passage is executed with extremely low dynamics- creating a very thin resultant sound. Stop pretending to be a complete imbecile. The capacitors are working just fine when you actually move with confidence in the loud chords that follow. It's only when you play like you're scared of the keybeds that the resultant sound is thin and weak.

[keyboardclass]

A thin tone refers to the fact that a forte passage is executed with extremely low dynamics

Well then it's extremely low dynamics (in your opinion) and not thin tone and I disagree.

[richard black]

Anyway, why does keybedding matter? I've watched some very great pianists at close quarters and some of them certainly drove the key pretty hard into the bed at times.

[keyboardclass]

Anyway, why does keybedding matter? I've watched some very great pianists at close quarters and some of them certainly drove the key pretty hard into the bed at times.

Too much like hard work.

[nyiregyhazi]

Anyway, why does keybedding matter? I've watched some very great pianists at close quarters and some of them certainly drove the key pretty hard into the bed at times.

Exactly. Great pianists never shy away from it. However, I think there's a substantial difference in the quality of movement WHILE they contact it- not merely after as Matthay would have us believe. Matthay noticed a very important issue, but he didn't quite get to grips with the details- or uncover what the true difference is between advanced players and your average amateur. It's only "hard work" if you haven't discovered what the secret is. Relaxing after contact (which is where the damage is done) will never yield the secret to anyone.

[keyboardclass]

Matthay noticed a very important issue, but he didn't quite get to grips with the details- or uncover what the true difference is between advanced players and your average amateur.

Yeh, even with a distinguished career (and while creating a national school of pedagogy).  If only he'd stayed at home and wrote a blog instead!

[nyiregyhazi]

Yeh, even with a distinguished career (and while creating a national school of pedagogy).  If only he'd stayed at home and wrote a blog instead!

I don't care how famous he is. I care about what works in practice and what is rationally feasible. Pretending that stress followed by relaxation is healthy is not going to help anybody. The only rational issue worthy of discussion is HOW impact occurs. Matthay's explanation deals with the aftermath of a bad contact. That would be enough of a pointer to help some people find the right action during the contact, but it doesn't actually clarify how to improve contact itself. Sorry, but you're living evidence of how futile it is to relax AFTER heavy contacts. You motions are riddled with strain and effort, no matter if you should flop afterwards. Of course it's "hard work" when you contact the keybeds. Your whole method is based on trying to fix things after it's already too late, rather than focus on the moment that matters. Accomplished pianists learn to contact keybeds safely (even in the loudest of passages)- they don't base their approach on how to set about mopping up the proverbial blood afterwards.

[keyboardclass]

It's obvious you don't care - you exude disrespect like a tank does carbon.  Statements like this show you've never even read him:

Matthay's explanation perpetuates the myth that you can bang it any old way if you relax after.

Matthay never said anything that would lead to that conclusion.  This thread's about Matthay.  Why don't you see if you can find a thread where there's a chance you'll know what your talking about?  Doubtful I agree, but dang it all, give it a try.

[nyiregyhazi]

It's obvious you don't care - you exude disrespect like a tank does carbon.  Statements like this show you've never even read him:Matthay never said anything that would lead to that conclusion.  This thread's about Matthay.  Why don't you see if you can find a thread where there's a chance you'll know what your talking about?  Doubtful I agree, but dang it all, give it a try.

I'm sure that Matthay had many valuable things to say elsewhere. However, this particular point inadvertently encourages people (notably yourself) to forgive stress and impact and focus on the aftermath instead. How can you relax from anything- unless there was a moment of notable stress or impact in the first place? When I lever my arm around the finger on a table, there's no release anywhere. I go from one state of effortless comfort to another. There's simply nothing to release- unless I'm happy for my finger to collapse. The same action on a piano can eliminate the stress altogether. There's nothing to relax from unless you did the movement badly. If you have something to relax from, you should relax but then go back and do it better to start with. Matthay should have made that totally clear.

In my own playing I find I have to pay particular attention to weeding out these moments where I feel my arm pressing into the piano slightly. Just a trace is enough to cause problems. In the midst of a Chopin Etude, there's no question of "relaxing" between notes. The only answer to eradicate such occurrences at source. The tension-release stage is barely even the beginning of real correction. You have to know how to eliminate that which you would release from altogether. It can't even come on to the radar, or the whole thing is screwed whatever you do.

[keyboardclass]

As I've intimated - don't entertain discussing Matthay till you've read (and maybe even understood) him.  That's another old habit of yours - putting words in others' mouths.

[mike_lang]

It's obvious you don't care - you exude disrespect like a tank does carbon.  Statements like this show you've never even read him:Matthay never said anything that would lead to that conclusion.  This thread's about Matthay.  Why don't you see if you can find a thread where there's a chance you'll know what your talking about?  Doubtful I agree, but dang it all, give it a try.

Would you like to respond (to N.) with an argument?

[keyboardclass]

Would you like to respond with an argument?

How?  About Matthay with someone who's not read any?

[mike_lang]

I'm sure that Matthay had many valuable things to say elsewhere. However, this particular point inadvertently encourages people (notably yourself) to forgive stress and impact and focus on the aftermath instead. How can you relax from anything- unless there was a moment of notable stress or impact in the first place? When I lever my arm around the finger on a table, there's no release anywhere. I go from one state of effortless comfort to another. There's simply nothing to release- unless I'm happy for my finger to collapse. The same action on a piano can eliminate the stress altogether. There's nothing to relax from unless you did the movement badly. If you have something to relax from, you should relax but then go back and do it better to start with. Matthay should have made that totally clear.

In my own playing I find I have to pay particular attention to weeding out these moments where I feel my arm pressing into the piano slightly. Just a trace is enough to cause problems. In the midst of a Chopin Etude, there's no question of "relaxing" between notes. The only answer to eradicate such occurrences at source. The tension-release stage is barely even the beginning of real correction. You have to know how to eliminate that which you would release from altogether. It can't even come on to the radar, or the whole thing is screwed whatever you do.

I think you make several valid points, and to those, I would like to add (or reiterate) the idea of thinking of relaxation in terms of a state, rather than an act.

[nyiregyhazi]

As I've intimated - don't entertain discussing Matthay till you've read (and maybe even understood) him.  That's another old habit of yours - putting words in others' mouths.

As Michael said, "would you like to respond with an argument"? Rather than empty vitriol? If you feel Matthay said differently, by all means quote the relevant passages in order to substantiate your claim. Even if I'm misattributing what Matthay said (which I currently have no reason to believe) the way his explanation of keybedding has been passed on has certainly created the problems that I refer to. Frankly, it doesn't matter if Matthay's to blame or not. There's a very wide misunderstanding of the nature of what goes on at the keybed. Whether those who cite keybedding are to blame or whether he is, the issue remains.

[keyboardclass]

the way his explanation of keybedding has been passed on

I doubt you even know that. 

[nyiregyhazi]

I doubt you even know that. 

That is not an "argument". That's simply known as trolling.

[mike_lang]

I doubt you even know that. 

In all honesty, did you start this thread with the intent to discuss, or as an autocratic monologue?

Mike

[keyboardclass]

In all honesty, did you start this thread with the intent to discuss, or as an autocratic monologue?

Mike

How can you discuss with someone who makes up Matthay's teachings off the top of his head?  Every counter will be countered by yet another falshood ad infinitum.  He's already slipped from what Matthay says to what people say Matthay said!  Been there with this guy, done that.

[nyiregyhazi]

How can you discuss with someone who makes up Matthay's teachings off the top of his head?  Every counter will be countered by yet another falshood ad infinitum.  Been there with this guy, done that.

Seeing as you have proclaimed your level of familiarity, would you like to present a passage to illustrate how I have supposedly misrepresented him? Frankly, I'm going primarily on what you have passed on. If you've personally misrepresented Matthay on keybedding and caused me to from an inaccurate idea, perhaps you could quote what he really said? I'm more interested in how this relates to possibility than to Matthay himself, but I would be interested if you'd like to pass on his words first hand, rather than through personal translation.

[mike_lang]

How can you discuss with someone who makes up Matthay's teachings off the top of his head?  Every counter will be countered by yet another falshood ad infinitum.  Been there with this guy, done that.

Perhaps, but I think the thread becomes of more use if we use Matthay's teachings/our perceptions of Matthay's teachings/perversions of Matthay's teachings as a launchpad to get to the heart of real technical issues in piano playing.

[keyboardclass]

Seeing as you have proclaimed your level of familiarity, would you like to present a passage to illustrate how I have supposedly misrepresented him?

You see?  This is how it goes.  N wildly misattributes Matthay, I'm expected to educate him in his errors.  And so it goes ad infinitum.  What kind of backwards idea of discussion is that?  Discussion is not based on what you want or think an author has said.  So NO - do your own spade work N! (or look the fool)

[nyiregyhazi]

You see?  This is how it goes.  N wildly misattributes Matthay, I'm expected to educate him in his errors.  And so it goes ad infinitum.  What kind of backwards idea of discussion is that?  Discussion is not based on what you want or think an author has said.  So NO - do your own spade work N!

My idea of discussion is that where parties make points based on argumentative substance- rather than make points that are based exclusively upon trying to discredit the other party. Sorry if you want this thread to be about Matthay before practicality, but it's the latter than concerns me. If Matthay is such an idol to you and comes before the practical issues, please illustrate where I misrepresented him with some substance.

I would sincerely be interested to know more, in the event that I have gone on too much on 2nd hand explanations of keybedding rather than what Matthay himself said, So instead of simply trying to insult me, I'd urge you to illustrate anything that you feel I misrepresented via quotation. Are you interest in arguing solely in the same sense that a prosecution/defence lawyer will seek to discredit the other side at any costs? Or are you interested in something productive?

[keyboardclass]

Sorry if you want this thread to be about Matthay before practicality,

In that case please leave!  If you'd botheed to read the first post you'd know this thread is about Matthay.

[nyiregyhazi]

In that case please leave!  If you'd botheed to read the first post you'd know this thread is about Matthay.

Well, in that respect I could scarcely give a damn. Possibility in piano playing comes first- not putting some teacher from 100 years ago on a pedestal of supposed infallibility. However, seeing as you clearly could give a damn- perhaps you'd like to defend his reputation by illustrating where I misrepresented what he had said? Then we can clear up once and for all whether HE was talking out of his arse, or whether it's simply 2nd hand explanations of keybedding that have caused so much confusion.

[keyboardclass]

Well, in that respect I could scarcely give a damn.

Says it all.

[nyiregyhazi]

Says it all.

Indeed, that practical issues of possibility take precedence over idolising a figure very much says it all. Your failure to do anything other than try to discredit ME- instead of my ARGUMENT, also says it all.

Why don't you upload videos of yourself worshipping at your Matthay shrine (instead of banging uncomfortably against your keyboard) if Matthay comes before practicality?

[keyboardclass]

Indeed, that practical issues of possibility take precedence over idolising a figure very much says it all. Your failure to do anything other than try to discredit ME- instead of my ARGUMENT, also says it all.

Your's isn't an argument it's baseless assertions.  Go find some sources then come back.

[nyiregyhazi]

Your's isn't an argument it's baseless assertions.  Go find some sources then come back.

Sources have no bearing on possibility. As your stiff motions at a piano show. Why are you more interested in whether person x happened to say whatever 100 years ago, than in what is possible? You can find a source for just about anything. Piano playing is not a legal case or a University essay. It's not an argument to be won or lost. Possibility alone governs it. It should be the only point of study. If you lose sight of that, all the sources in the world won't help. Quite honestly, you serve as an excellent warning to people.

[keyboardclass]

Sources have no bearing on possibility.

Oh I forgot, as you like to say - You are the source!  No need for geniuses' life work to intrude.

[nyiregyhazi]

Oh I forgot, as you like to say - You are the source!  No need for geniuses' life work to intrude.

Newtonian mechanics are the source of the fact that relaxing AFTER impact does not prevent it (if common sense really isn't good enough for you on that one). The laws of conservation of momentum are the source regarding how futile it is to relax between escapement and keybed (and that a "relaxed" finger will result in the key bouncing straight back up). But hey, who cares. If you can find enough sources that claim otherwise, no doubt you will thrive...

[keyboardclass]

Newtonian mechanics

Of which you know nothing.  And don't ask me to prove you wrong, I'm not about to spend my time educating you.

In the meantime why don't you quote your souce for this?

Matthay's explanation perpetuates the myth that you can bang it any old way if you relax after.

[nyiregyhazi]

Of which you know nothing.  And don't ask me to prove you wrong, I'm not about to spend my time educating you.

In the meantime why don't you quote your souce for this?

As, I said if Newtonian mechanics aren't good enough for you, try using common sense. Do you have any sources for the possibility that relaxing AFTER an impact will prevent impact? Or time-travel, as it's otherwise known. You'd like a more detailed "source" for that?

Look, you can insult away. I'm not interested in anything outside of what related to understanding of possibility. At present, defending myself against willful ignorance and argumentativeness is not likely to contribute a thing to that. You go and worship Matthay and I'll go and continue to think about the nature of physical possibility at an instrument.

[keyboardclass]

As, I said if Newtonian mechanics aren't good enough for you,

You got a page number there Buddy?

In the meantime why don't you quote your souce for this?

Matthay's explanation perpetuates the myth that you can bang it any old way if you relax after.

[nyiregyhazi]

You got a page number there Buddy?

You want me to quote the page number in which Newton refers to the impossibility of preventing things after they already happened? I'm not wasting any more time on this. If you want sources about the impossibility of time travel, go and do your own research.