Theory of Technique is Dead

[keyboardclass]

The golden age of piano, when every respectable household owned one, is gone.  The last word on theory really does rest with Matthay.  Everything after either clarifies or muddies his waters.  The only job - to clarify.  The only problem I've ever had with him is the 'acceleration-affects-tone' argument.

[nyiregyhazi]

The golden age of piano, when every respectable household owned one, is gone.  The last word on theory really does rest with Matthay.  Everything after either clarifies or muddies his waters.  The only job - to clarify.  The only problem I've ever had with him is the 'acceleration-affects-tone' argument.

?

[mike_lang]

Interesting you bring this up -- I just had a very fruitful lesson with a "grand-student" of his last week.  What do you take from his contribution/ what led you to make this post?

Mike

[keyboardclass]

I'm also a 'grand-student' but it's more than that.  Every problem looked at seems to have a Matthay answer - I'm sure on everything he got there first.  Taubman is the lastest Matthay rehash.

[mike_lang]

I'm also a 'grand-student' but it's more than that.  Every problem looked at seems to have a Matthay answer - I'm sure on everything he got there first.  Taubman is the lastest Matthay rehash.

That may be true, but to answer the first part of my question: Are there any concepts that you take from Matthay that have been particularly useful to you?

I think others would be interested in a little bit fuller and specific description of what Matthay embodied and what he represented for piano playing, if you have the time to post such a thing :-)

Sincerely,
Mike

[keyboardclass]

For me it's not keybedding, being so sensitive to the key that you feel its complete travel.  Another important contribution of his was understanding the mechanics (existence in point of fact) of the invisible rotational forces.  Apart from the all important mechanical aspects, he understood piano playing as piano listening and wrote extensively on this.

[pianisten1989]

Care to explain? I don't follow at all...

[mike_lang]

Likewise, I'll post what one of the faculty wrote to me (I'm sure he wouldn't mind).  Keep in mind that this man is 61 years old and still playing actively and easily:

"Learning at your age how to reduce excessive force will pay off in many more years of productive piano playing.  I thank God every day that I was taught this or I could never keep the schedule I have with 6 playing jobs and all the related exertion that goes along with them.  Tobias Matthay taught this way and his descendants continue to carry on this great tradition.  He figured it out for all of us!  His bottom line was 'Enjoy the music.  Enjoy the music!'"

The last line recalls to me the idea you mentioned of "piano listening."

All best,
Mike

[keyboardclass]

Students who 'get' the 'reduce excessive force' suddenly find practice sessions are never tiring no matter what the piece(s) - a great gift he left us and outside of the artistic (which is of far greater importance) what it is really all about.

[nyiregyhazi]

For me it's not keybedding, being so sensitive to the key that you feel its complete travel.  Another important contribution of his was understanding the mechanics (existence in point of fact) of the invisible rotational forces.  Apart from the all important mechanical aspects, he understood piano playing as piano listening and wrote extensively on this.

For me, this is something where Matthay made something of an "epic fail", as the modern saying goes. While he was right to identify the concept, in many ways the details of how it is spoken of has caused more harm than good. It's far more useful to understand the difference between healthy, low-impact contact with the keybed and hard landings. Matthay didn't even scratch the surface of explaning the difference between  negative "keybedding" and healthy contact with the keybed. There's no virtually no such thing as an action that fails to reach the keybed, in at least 99% of playing. To pretend that keybedding is about either doing it or not doing it (rather than HOW you do it) is scarcely better than not being aware of it at all. I wrote most of a blog post on this some time ago, that I really need to finish off sometime.

What Matthay failed to explain is that it's only if you try to force down with the whole arm that you need a stop start approach. When using a different style of finger action, good contact with the keybed does not necessarily produce impact. In such actions there's no need for split-second on/off timing of every finger- because contact with the keybed does not cause straining. It's only when the whole arm is bearing down that this is an inherent problem

[keyboardclass]

The essence to the 'reduce excessive force' is not keybedding but you have to have learnt the skill to understand it.

[mike_lang]

For me, this is something where Matthay made something of an "epic fail", as the modern saying goes. While he was right to identify the concept, in many ways the details of how it is spoken of has caused more harm than good. It's far more useful to understand the difference between healthy, low-impact contact with the keybed and hard landings. Matthay didn't even scratch the surface of explaning the difference between  negative "keybedding" and healthy contact with the keybed. There's no virtually no such thing as an action that fails to reach the keybed, in at least 99% of playing. To pretend that keybedding is about either doing it or not doing it (rather than HOW you do it) is scarcely better than not being aware of it at all. I wrote most of a blog post on this some time ago, that I really need to finish off sometime.

Hi there, nyiregyhazi,

Unless I am mistaken, "keybedding" refers to extended pressure after the key has already been depressed, so the word itself connotes only the "negative version."  Perhaps he didn't explain it in his books, but the teacher I spoke with the other day explained very clearly the idea of playing to the bottom of the key but releasing the pressure immediately (even if still holding the key down).  I was under the impression that this was one of Matthay's principles . . . not true?

Mike

[nyiregyhazi]

Hi there, nyiregyhazi,

Unless I am mistaken, "keybedding" refers to extended pressure after the key has already been depressed, so the word itself connotes only the "negative version."  Perhaps he didn't explain it in his books, but the teacher I spoke with the other day explained very clearly the idea of playing to the bottom of the key but releasing the pressure immediately (even if still holding the key down).  I was under the impression that this was one of Matthay's principles . . . not true?

Mike

Yes, I disagree. For one thing, you have to keep the key down still normally. So, how difficult is it going it going to be to use one downward action then a split second release that has to be judged to the perfect level of retained effort? I'm not convinced that Matthay himself timed such intricate fractions of seconds as the method he claims would require.

Try resting your finger on a table and pulling, so your arm moves around it. Don't release the weight of your whole arm, but feel how the finger is actively pulling the arm- it's not the arm muscles that instigate movement. If done right, this can be a very low effort action. There should be no massive pressure between fingertip and table.

Now imagine doing this on the piano. The action is identical- it's just that the key goes down. As long as the arm does not press, you have the option of relaxing the finger OR not doing so (as long as you are definitely NOT pressing down!). When the key reaches the bottom, the action simply continues to move everything else around that point, it does not jam into anything. So who cares if you relax? This is an extremely valuable style of movement. Personally, I'm very skeptical as to whether those styles where anything other than instant relaxation creates a burden are terribly healthy anyway. I suspect that Matthay used this style of movement plenty, but never defined it.

When a person stands up, the legs do not "relax" upon becoming upright. The forces simply enter into comfortable balance. If you turn your legs off, you fall back down. I think it's far easier to play the piano with similar principles- than be thinking of on then off all the time. That just forgives poor efficiency. It's vastly simpler if you have one positive action to play and enter balance and a second to actually let the key up. You just have to ensure that the movement never causes any impact to start with.

[keyboardclass]

...the idea of playing to the bottom of the key but releasing the pressure immediately (even if still holding the key down).  I was under the impression that this was one of Matthay's principles . . . not true?

Quite true, but as he never wrote a blog...   As for second guessing how sensitive the body actually is - no sensible person would go there.

[mike_lang]

Yes, I disagree. For one thing, you have to keep the key down still normally. So, how difficult is it going it going to be to use one downward action then a split second release that has to be judged to the perfect level of retained effort? I'm not convinced that Matthay himself timed such intricate fractions of seconds as the method he claims would require.

Try resting your finger on a table and pulling, so your arm moves around it. Don't release the weight of your whole arm, but feel how the finger is actively pulling the arm- it's not the arm muscles that instigate movement. If done right, this can be a very low effort action. There should be no massive pressure between fingertip and table.

Now imagine doing this on the piano. The action is identical- it's just that the key goes down. As long as the arm does not press, you have the option of relaxing the finger OR not doing so (as long as you are definitely NOT pressing down!). When the key reaches the bottom, the action simply continues to move everything else around that point, it does not jam into anything. So who cares if you relax? This is an extremely valuable style of movement. Personally, I'm very skeptical as to whether those styles where anything other than instant relaxation creates a burden are terribly healthy anyway. I suspect that Matthay used this style of movement plenty, but never defined it.

When a person stands up, the legs do not "relax" upon becoming upright. The forces simply enter into comfortable balance. If you turn your legs off, you fall back down. I think it's far easier to play the piano with similar principles- than be thinking of on then off all the time. That just forgives poor efficiency. It's vastly simpler if you have one positive action to play and enter balance and a second to actually let the key up. You just have to ensure that the movement never causes any impact to start with.

Hmm . . . I'm not sure that we are actually in disagreement.  Perhaps I am unaware of some eccentric things that Matthay said, but I basically agree with what you've posted, especially in light of what was shown me the other day.

Mike

[nyiregyhazi]

Hmm . . . I'm not sure that we are actually in disagreement.  Perhaps I am unaware of some eccentric things that Matthay said, but I basically agree with what you've posted, especially in light of what was shown me the other day.

Mike

Yeah, if taught well, I have little doubt that it would match up with what I describe. However, I think many have misunderstood Matthay (well, if taking what he said literally can be called "misunderstanding" him). It wouldn't surprise me if he he conveyed something to his students that was not strictly as he described it. However, I do feel his language can lead to major misunderstandings. People should not be afraid of the keybed or try to repress contact with it- and that's all too often been caused by the explanation. Matthay fails to clarify the style of movement that enables you to interact with it effectively- imagining there must be some magical split-second timing involved rather than an entirely different style of motion. I suspect he showed how these movements were done- but his written explanation doesn't even scratch the surface. It just perpetuates ideals that will forgive any old rubbish, as long as you relax after. Ironically, striving to relax in the instant straight after actually hinders the awareness of how poor the prior movement may have been and prevents correction. Feeling the progress from one state to another gives vastly more feedback and opportunity to iron out wasted efforts once and for all- rather than relax AFTER they happened.

My biggest problem with Matthay is this whole on and off implication. If you think of it as entering a state of comfortable balance- rather than going from effort to relaxation then it makes far more sense. Presumably Matthay just leapt to the assumption that obviously if it's comfortable, you must have "relaxed" from what you did to move the key. However, I find it far more likely that he actually just moved from one state of comfort to another- without the supposed instant of release at the keybed occurring.

[keyboardclass]

Matthay fails to clarify the style of movement that enables you to interact with it effectively-

And there speaks someone who has obviously read none, let alone understood any, of Matthay's work. 

His writings were for teachers and offer further advice and support to those in the know.  It can't actually be delivered in print.  There's very little there for the noninitiate - a small excuse for harping from the sidelines!

[venik]

Yeah, if taught well, I have little doubt that it would match up with what I describe. However, I think many have misunderstood Matthay (well, if taking what he said literally can be called "misunderstanding" him). It wouldn't surprise me if he he conveyed something to his students that was not strictly as he described it. However, I do feel his language can lead to major misunderstandings. People should not be afraid of the keybed or try to repress contact with it- and that's all too often been caused by the explanation. Matthay fails to clarify the style of movement that enables you to interact with it effectively- imagining there must be some magical split-second timing involved rather than an entirely different style of motion. I suspect he showed how these movements were done- but his written explanation doesn't even scratch the surface. It just perpetuates ideals that will forgive any old rubbish, as long as you relax after. Ironically, striving to relax in the instant straight after actually hinders the awareness of how poor the prior movement may have been and prevents correction. Feeling the progress from one state to another gives vastly more feedback and opportunity to iron out wasted efforts once and for all- rather than relax AFTER they happened.

My biggest problem with Matthay is this whole on and off implication. If you think of it as entering a state of comfortable balance- rather than going from effort to relaxation then it makes far more sense. Presumably Matthay just leapt to the assumption that obviously if it's comfortable, you must have "relaxed" from what you did to move the key. However, I find it far more likely that he actually just moved from one state of comfort to another- without the supposed instant of release at the keybed occurring.

My teacher taught me something like this, relaxing technique. And in my case no, it's not the same as "balancing." I think we have here the same reason for your disagreement in my own thread.

I think I could sum my taught technique up with two principles:
1. Never use the muscles that lift the finger, unless you are lifting that finger. This is simply counter productive, creating tension, against what you want your finger to do. It tires the muscles for no reason, both the up and down pulling muscles. It slows you down. And most annoyingly this is the way we naturally use our fingers, with tension, it is the most "accurate" way to move your fingers, which is why it is so hard to adopt the technique. Our hands naturally desire this accuracy especially when we're anxious. But it's a false desire.

2. Never use the muscles that press the finger, unless you are lowering that finger. I.e. do not press into the keybed. Rather you should keep the key depressed by the weight of your fingers alone.

These muscles are actually only used to accelerate the finger, so it is only a pulse of pulling to lift or press the finger in perfect execution and extremely fast playing. When the finger reaches the keybed the muscle should already be relaxed, half-way or so of the journey from resting on the key.

What it all comes down to is the science of reducing tension, be it in the arms legs back shoulders fingers wrists, which allows faster and easier playing. No muscle, ideally, should be used without utmost requirement and zero constriction.

[nyiregyhazi]

These muscles are actually only used to accelerate the finger, so it is only a pulse of pulling to lift or press the finger in perfect execution and extremely fast playing. When the finger reaches the keybed the muscle should already be relaxed, half-way or so of the journey from resting on the key.

It's often explained this way, but it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. When is important to reduce impact most? In loud playing, of course. At such key speeds, to presume that anyone times these things to thousandths of seconds is simply beyond reason. Even if they do, does cutting the engine of a car in the instant before a crash do anything useful to prevent impact?

Far more likely is that the entire quality of movement is different. Bad movements cause compression that needs to be relaxed from. But it's possible to move in a way that simply CANNOT result in compression or impact whether you relax or not. Think what happens when you stand up from a chair. You are lifted up by pushing down into the ground. However, if you think down you will compress. It's the same with a finger- if you think of lifting/pulling the knuckle up instead of pushing down, you can avoid digging outright.

I firmly believe that this quality of movement is both safer and easier to perform. If you relax your finger and rely on it's weight alone, it only means that other muscles have to work harder to stop your hand and wrist collapsing downward.

[keyboardclass]

That's great sense venik.  You, I and Matthay seem very much in agreement.  I noticed today with a pupil who has always naturally had a perfect touch (never keybeds) - his hands together in scales is also excellent yet he's never had to consider it.  I think his touch causes his hands to form together further back in his nervous system.

[nyiregyhazi]

That's great sense venik.  You, I and Matthay seem very much in agreement.

Well, perhaps one of you could offer a rationally credible theory as to how some spectacularly improbable ability to time the moment of release to thousandths of seconds on every note played is going to be of any use anyway? If you punch a wall head on with a relaxed arm, does it do anything to prevent impact? Conversely, if you give the wall a glancing blow, do you need to "relax"? The great thing about a piano key is that you can move it in a direct path, without having to land the keybed in a direct impact. If the action occurs in the right way, any additional input simply raises the knuckle. It doesn't jam the key into the bed unless you stiffen your arm or press through. That's only one style of movement- and frankly it's a pretty damned poor one, whether you go on to relax post-impact or not.

I'm all for encouraging students to relax after a poor quality of movement has led to compression. What I'm not in favour of is perpetuating the myth that this approach is okay in the long run or that it works at high speeds. It doesn't- as we see in your video of Grieg. If you have something to relax from you need to prevent the tension you are relaxing from ever arising. Those who can play effectively at high speeds are simply never ending up a situation where they have a heavy contact to relax from. This is not achieved by the (very evident impossibility) of supposedly stopping a key that is coasting freely within a couple of millimetres. There's no such thing as a pianist who never contacts the keybed or who can slow down a coasting key between escapement and keybed. There are pianists who have a means to contact the keybed safely in the first place then there are pianists who contact it heavily and with impact and then relax (if they have time to do so). Some pianists may perceive this as "relaxing" and indeed some pianists may choose to relax anyway- after having made a healthy contact with the keybed. However, what accomplished pianists do is contact the keybed in a suitable way to begin with. They don't send momentum of the whole arm crashing into it head on like a motorway pile up and then "relax".

I can only presume that Matthay perceived the comfort at all times, and leapt to the unfounded assumption that an impact still occurred but he relaxed quickly from it. What he didn't realise is that there's not necessarily any need for instantaneous release, but rather a quality of movement that requires no release- no more so than standing up from a chair is followed by "releasing" the legs. Relaxing after heavy contact is a short-term answer, not the reality of the finished product.

[keyboardclass]

Perhaps someone would offer to actually read all that?

[nyiregyhazi]

Perhaps someone would offer to actually read all that?

If you're not interested in reading it then please show equally little interest in replying. If you'd sooner continue your visibly futile struggle to "relax" within a margin of mere thousandths of a second (based on a text that is about a century old) then it's your loss.

[keyboardclass]

If you're not interested in reading it then please show equally little interest in replying. If you'd sooner continue your visibly futile struggle to "relax" within a margin of mere thousandths of a second (based on a text that is about a century old) then it's your loss.

Only a fool would attempt to second guess nature besides, please allow me contempt for waffle!

[nyiregyhazi]

Let's analyse this in more depth:

From 20 seconds onwards, you make an extremely thin sound-scarcely more than in the preceeding passage that was supposed to be pianissimo. After seeing the sheer visibility of the struggle in the opening, it's no surprise that you have to duck out of making a big sound. Any more effort and you'd be straining like hell. You are being forced to hold back as any more effort would give heavy contacts into the keybed. However, you are holding back BEFORE the key has sounded- losing all the tone and drama of the crescendo and introducing a very uneven tone. Instead of playing like somebody who has good reason to be scared of the keybed, you need to learn a better way of contacting them.

Now at 24 seconds in there is FINALLY a positive example. You press forwards and contact the keybed in a way that immediately REDIRECTS the momentum forwards and up. You can contact the keybed as confidently as you like, as there's no possibility of compression. The momentum is immediately sent elsewhere. You need to stop quoting Matthay without thought and think seriously about why this is the single moment in the video where you are able to play with any confidence and ease. It's down to the fact that you are redirecting energy, rather than shying away from the keybed outright.

[keyboardclass]

Let's analyse this in more depth:

How many times have you posted that?  What a sorry creature you are.

[nyiregyhazi]

How many times have you posted that?  What a sorry creature you are.

I posted it because it's strikingly relevant to the nonsense of the impact-relax idea and shows what a result it can unfortunately cause in someone who persists in trying to take it literally. When there's no time to stop and relax nobody can do so- whether the person in question is you or anyone else. You need to eliminate stress at source not after the harm has been done. You're just left with plenty of impacts but also with tentative and thin sounds where the composer asked for a big dramatic sound. The only way for you to progress is for to stop kidding yourself that anything goes if you relax after and start working on sustained comfort, rather than impact-release.

If you are only interested in insulting me without even attempting reference to the discussion, please do it by PM- rather than off-topic posts.

[keyboardclass]

Can't say anything in less than a paragraph?  You know what they say about empty vessels.

[nyiregyhazi]

Can't say anything in less than a paragraph?  You know what they say about empty vessels.

If you are only interested in insulting me without even attempting reference to the discussion, please do it by PM- rather than off-topic posts.

[keyboardclass]

In a thread I've started I'll go as off topic as I wish, thank you very much.

[mike_lang]

The only way for you to progress is for to stop kidding yourself that anything goes if you relax after and start working on sustained comfort, rather than impact-release.

I agree, but in my experience, "impact-release" is exactly what is happening.  It's just that this is something difficult to transmit except through a VERY good teacher.  We can read as many books as we like on piano technique, but we learn best through a teacher.

Mike

[nyiregyhazi]

I agree, but in my experience, "impact-release" is exactly what is happening.  It's just that this is something difficult to transmit except through a VERY good teacher.  We can read as many books as we like on piano technique, but we learn best through a teacher.

Mike

Sure- but understanding certain principles behind why some actions will automatically be high impact and why others will automatically be low impact is a hell of an aid. Everything has some impact- but it's the lack of impact to start with that makes the best movements effective. I've recently learned movements which don't contain a trace of release- but which simply cannot cause harmful impact unless the arm pushes. Straightening out the thumb is a classic case. Only added arm pressure or excessive release of weight can ever lead to a heavy landing- no matter how positively I perform the thumb action. It always finishes with a perfectly straight thumb. Nothing is repressed or released at the keybed whatsoever (it just lifts the hand up over the straightening thumb) but I know of no lower impact way of using the thumb. It's purely about whether the whole arm piles on needless pressure in the first place, or whether it lets the thumb get on with performing its action. In fact, there's more impact if I only make a half measure of it- rather than feel the thumb finishing the complete motion. Release never has to come into it- unless I've done the movement altogether wrongly.

 In my experience, very few people even teach what you need to truly minimise it. Even among some very good teachers, it's often more a case of giving you a sporting chance of figuring out for yourself- rather than necessarily showing you how to do it. I've found analysis of what could rationally minimise impact an extremely useful thing to have alongside practical demonstrations from teachers. Each makes sense of the other in a very useful way.

[venik]

It's often explained this way, but it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. When is important to reduce impact most? In loud playing, of course. At such key speeds, to presume that anyone times these things to thousandths of seconds is simply beyond reason. Even if they do, does cutting the engine of a car in the instant before a crash do anything useful to prevent impact?

Far more likely is that the entire quality of movement is different. Bad movements cause compression that needs to be relaxed from. But it's possible to move in a way that simply CANNOT result in compression or impact whether you relax or not. Think what happens when you stand up from a chair. You are lifted up by pushing down into the ground. However, if you think down you will compress. It's the same with a finger- if you think of lifting/pulling the knuckle up instead of pushing down, you can avoid digging outright.

I firmly believe that this quality of movement is both safer and easier to perform. If you relax your finger and rely on it's weight alone, it only means that other muscles have to work harder to stop your hand and wrist collapsing downward.

You're relaxing the muscle that is all, you don't need to prevent contact from the keybed you need to prevent the muscle pushing *into* the keybed. Your finger can hit the key at any speed it wants, the damage will be done depending on whether the muscle is relaxed or not. A relaxed finger isn't going to be damaged by going into the keybed.

No, it does not require any muscle to lift the weight of the finger.

This is not a car during impact, it is a car before impact. The impact would be the keybed.

It requires no timing at all to shut-off a muscle, you merely twitch and you played the darn key.

Well, perhaps one of you could offer a rationally credible theory as to how some spectacularly improbable ability to time the moment of release to thousandths of seconds on every note played is going to be of any use anyway? If you punch a wall head on with a relaxed arm, does it do anything to prevent impact? Conversely, if you give the wall a glancing blow, do you need to "relax"? The great thing about a piano key is that you can move it in a direct path, without having to land the keybed in a direct impact. If the action occurs in the right way, any additional input simply raises the knuckle. It doesn't jam the key into the bed unless you stiffen your arm or press through. That's only one style of movement- and frankly it's a pretty damned poor one, whether you go on to relax post-impact or not.

I'm all for encouraging students to relax after a poor quality of movement has led to compression. What I'm not in favour of is perpetuating the myth that this approach is okay in the long run or that it works at high speeds. It doesn't- as we see in your video of Grieg. If you have something to relax from you need to prevent the tension you are relaxing from ever arising. Those who can play effectively at high speeds are simply never ending up a situation where they have a heavy contact to relax from. This is not achieved by the (very evident impossibility) of supposedly stopping a key that is coasting freely within a couple of millimetres. There's no such thing as a pianist who never contacts the keybed or who can slow down a coasting key between escapement and keybed. There are pianists who have a means to contact the keybed safely in the first place then there are pianists who contact it heavily and with impact and then relax (if they have time to do so). Some pianists may perceive this as "relaxing" and indeed some pianists may choose to relax anyway- after having made a healthy contact with the keybed. However, what accomplished pianists do is contact the keybed in a suitable way to begin with. They don't send momentum of the whole arm crashing into it head on like a motorway pile up and then "relax".

I can only presume that Matthay perceived the comfort at all times, and leapt to the unfounded assumption that an impact still occurred but he relaxed quickly from it. What he didn't realise is that there's not necessarily any need for instantaneous release, but rather a quality of movement that requires no release- no more so than standing up from a chair is followed by "releasing" the legs. Relaxing after heavy contact is a short-term answer, not the reality of the finished product.

You are a true psuedoscientist, declaring what is possible and what is not on every whim.

You aren't stopping the finger, that would require muscle tension, you are letting the keybed stop it. Only you are making sure that the finger does not have your muscle pulling on it while it does so.

Put your finger on the keybed, and press into it. Eventually your muscle will get tired, your fingers will hurt, and you'll want to stop playing. This is the same reason good technique will keep you from doing this as much as possible.

Finally, raising the knuckle is no solution. That takes unnecessary strength, it tires your muscle. To boot many pieces are impossible to play in this manner. I would like to see you play something like la Campanella while raising your knuckles. Here's a better idea, only use the muscle enough to gain enough momentum to press the key.

Finally I make no claims to be able to never press the keybed. But I make every effort not to. Loud playing is obviously the hardest to do without over-tension. But you seem to be the one arguing against this point which no one seems to be arguing.

[richard black]

Isn't there more than a little irony in keyboardclass attempting to demonstrate piano technique on an instrument that's not, in fact, a piano?

Anyway, Matthay's worth a read. To me, though, his book seems an extraordinarily long-winded way of saying 'Don't hit the piano'.

[mike_lang]

Anyway, Matthay's worth a read. To me, though, his book seems an extraordinarily long-winded way of saying 'Don't hit the piano'.

LOL

[nyiregyhazi]

"It requires no timing at all to shut-off a muscle, you merely twitch and you played the darn key.
You are a true psuedoscientist, declaring what is possible and what is not on every whim. "

The weight of the finger is not enough to keep a key down unless the arm is pressing from behind. I tried it just now. My finger comes up. The point about the split second on/off is that either way you hit the keybed. So it's still HOW you hit it that determines impact- not whether you relax AFTER. If you just twitch, your finger will come up again. If you keep holding the key, something stays contracted. There's no magic to keep a key down or stop it bouncing back up.

"Put your finger on the keybed, and press into it. Eventually your muscle will get tired, your fingers will hurt, and you'll want to stop playing. This is the same reason good technique will keep you from doing this as much as possible."

I don't press into the keybed- as I explained. I press or generally pull everything else AWAY from it or AROUND it. Such actions brings impact to the lowest that is possible. It also means that I can maintain it for as long as I choose without being tired- because nothing is compressing hard. It opens doors, it doesn't close any. If I choose to release this tiny effort I have every option of doing so. The point is that it doesn't mean you're limited by NEEDING to simply to get by and relieve yourself of crippling efforts. Such efforts should never arise in the picture at all.

"Finally, raising the knuckle is no solution. That takes unnecessary strength, it tires your muscle. To boot many pieces are impossible to play in this manner. I would like to see you play something like la Campanella while raising your knuckles. Here's a better idea, only use the muscle enough to gain enough momentum to press the key."

That's where the arm is useful. It's weight can stops this happening and keeps you balanced. Remember that you CAN relax if you CHOOSE- you're just not buggered if you should ever fail to do so, because there's no crushing impact. Energy goes into movement of the whole arm around the point where finger meets key- it does not come into a crashing stop. It's a collossal safety net. Any premise that depends on instant release simply to function without impact and stress is limiting. A versatile technique ought to provide the choice- without either option being a burden.

[jbmorel78]

Seems like a lot of blabbering . . . did anyone intend to get any true knowledge from this thread, or just engage in polemics over semantics?  Why don't you all just go practice . . . Sorry, but growing impatient watching this thread spiral into uselessness!

Luv,
JBM

[nyiregyhazi]

Seems like a lot of blabbering . . . did anyone intend to get any true knowledge from this thread, or just engage in polemics over semantics?  Why don't you all just go practice . . . Sorry, but growing impatient watching this thread spiral into uselessness!

Luv,
JBM

Quite sincerely, i believe that understanding how to redirect momentum in such a way that notable impact is not even on the radar of possibility is the single most important issue in a healthy piano technique. Years of attempting the tension-release approach proved worthless to me. Outside of this thread, I've thought about this in great detail before. I cannot overstate how helpful it has been when making changes.

[venik]

The weight of the finger is not enough to keep a key down unless the arm is pressing from behind. I tried it just now. My finger comes up. The point about the split second on/off is that either way you hit the keybed. So it's still HOW you hit it that determines impact- not whether you relax AFTER. If you just twitch, your finger will come up again. If you keep holding the key, something stays contracted. There's no magic to keep a key down or stop it bouncing back up.

It is, you're doing it wrong. In fact sometimes I use the springing up of the key on purpose in fast passages. Once again, read carefully this time for the 4th-5th time in this thread: it's not about hitting the keybed its about pressing *into* it and creating tension in the process. You can rest on the keybed without tension of muscles, with weight alone. You're right no magic, just gravity and the natural curling of the finger.

All things equal you will be exerting less energy in any movement where you are not contracting an unnecessary muscle.

I don't press into the keybed- as I explained. I press or generally pull everything else AWAY from it or AROUND it. Such actions brings impact to the lowest that is possible. It also means that I can maintain it for as long as I choose without being tired- because nothing is compressing hard. It opens doors, it doesn't close any. If I choose to release this tiny effort I have every option of doing so. The point is that it doesn't mean you're limited by NEEDING to simply to get by and relieve yourself of crippling efforts. Such efforts should never arise in the picture at all.

There's a fundamental lack of understanding physics in this paragraph, and dare i say most of your posts. It takes more energy to bounce something than it does to let it stop naturally. You're creating more tension by bouncing than by simply colliding (without pressing into the keybed mind you). Nobody needs to relax, just as nobody *needs* to play the piano well. Relaxing as many muscles as possible simply gives you endurance, strength, speed, and ease. So yes it does cripple you in that it exhausts you.

That's where the arm is useful. It's weight can stops this happening and keeps you balanced. Remember that you CAN relax if you CHOOSE- you're just not buggered if you should ever fail to do so, because there's no crushing impact. Energy goes into movement of the whole arm around the point where finger meets key- it does not come into a crashing stop. It's a collossal safety net. Any premise that depends on instant release simply to function without impact and stress is limiting. A versatile technique ought to provide the choice- without either option being a burden.

I have the choice, I have every inclination not to relax while playing a hard piece. But having a choice does not mean it is good for you or your playing. There is absolutely no harm or foul in using your weight rather than your muscles, and avoiding contradicting tension. There is absolutely harm and foul in creating unnecessary tension. Any tension which was not needed to push and lift from the key, was essentially useless and resulted in nothing but exerting extra energy and wear on tendons.

[nyiregyhazi]

It is, you're doing it wrong. In fact sometimes I use the springing up of the key on purpose in fast passages. Once again, read carefully this time for the 4th-5th time in this thread: it's not about hitting the keybed its about pressing *into* it and creating tension in the process. You can rest on the keybed without tension of muscles, with weight alone. You're right no magic, just gravity and the natural curling of the finger.

You may perceive it that way. However, it's not true. A hanging finger will be pushed back up if released. Unless you have very heavy fingers. Hold your arm stiffly and see what happens when you relax the finger. A standard action really ought to push it back up. It's not a gravity issue. It cannot supercede muscles. It just shows that you are not perceiving the action.

After years of wasted time in which I literally relaxed my fingers, I know very well what it's like to do it "wrong". I did it wrong by taking the tension-release description literally.

You clearly haven't even been reading my posts before replying. Why are you telling me about not pressing into the keybed? I don't. I press AWAY from the keybed. The difference is in issues of momentum.


"There's a fundamental lack of understanding physics in this paragraph, and dare i say most of your posts. It takes more energy to bounce something than it does to let it stop naturally."

This is based on a total misunderstanding. If you only use the weight of the finger and an instant impulse, the natural stopping point IS the top of the key. The key automatically bounces a relaxed finger back. Only a finger that is activating will settle at the bottom.

[keyboardclass]

Seems like a lot of blabbering . . .

I can't start a thread without paragraph after paragraph of such pseudo-science blabbering being appended by a cetain party.  Thread after thread which could have some helpful knowledge just get trashed.  It's a childish idea that the more you waffle the more you say.  It isn't, it's less.

[tb230]

I noticed today with a pupil who has always naturally had a perfect touch (never keybeds) - his hands together in scales is also excellent yet he's never had to consider it.  I think his touch causes his hands to form together further back in his nervous system.

Well, talking about pseudo-science, this is a pretty good contribution as well. I never knew that 'the back' of the nervous system was so important for piano playing.

[keyboardclass]

I never knew that 'the back' of the nervous system was so important for piano playing.

It's called the homunculus and yes, poor definition of the fingers could well be the cause of focal dystonia - you don't want to get that.

[tb230]

So the back of the CNS is supposed to be the homunculus...What's the front called then? And is a back-to-front approach better for piano playing than a front-to-back?

[keyboardclass]

I am merely suggesting that the reason a pupil of mine has an above average ability to play hands together is due to a more refined nervous system.  Quite what a more refined nervous system consists of is of course pure speculation.

[nyiregyhazi]

I am merely suggesting that the reason a pupil of mine has an above average ability to play hands together is due to a more refined nervous system.  Quite what a more refined nervous system consists of is of course pure speculation.

So you were just stating the blindingly obvious, in a way that is masked by pointless self-invented terminology? What a revelation.

"It's a childish idea that the more you waffle the more you say."

Maybe you should practise what you preach? Understanding the fact that impact is caused by forcing large quantities of momentum to stop very quickly is not waffle. It's what defines the level of strain caused by contact with the keybed, in a fully explicable fashion- rather than a completely irrational one that supposes momentum can vanish if you relax in a margin of thousandths of seconds before (or supposedly even after) contacting the keybed. As for wasting even a short paragraph pointing out that those who do better possibly have better functioning nervous systems (via pseudo-intellectual language)- well...

[keyboardclass]

"It's a childish idea that the more you waffle the more you say."

Maybe you should practise what you preach?

You'd be hard pressed to find me waffling.

[venik]

You may perceive it that way. However, it's not true. A hanging finger will be pushed back up if released. Unless you have very heavy fingers. Hold your arm stiffly and see what happens when you relax the finger. A standard action really ought to push it back up. It's not a gravity issue. It cannot supercede muscles. It just shows that you are not perceiving the action.

Luckily my fingers are attached to my body, and theoretically have 170 lbs at their disposal. Realistically, it is the weight of my elbow and forward in a completely untensed state. I would assume that any pianist was aware of this mechanic. But not you I guess.

After years of wasted time in which I literally relaxed my fingers, I know very well what it's like to do it "wrong". I did it wrong by taking the tension-release description literally.

There are many relaxed methods, which one are you talking about? No doubt you are doing it wrong if you came to the conclusion that dropping and bouncing is the best solution.

You clearly haven't even been reading my posts before replying. Why are you telling me about not pressing into the keybed? I don't. I press AWAY from the keybed. The difference is in issues of momentum.

There are two ways of pressing away from the keybed, in one you aren't playing any keys at all, in the other you are using the keybed as a step to lift your hands. Why not just use your bicep to lift your hand? Too simple?

Let me give you a lesson on what you're calling momentum. In the end this will be a proof that you are exerting magnitudes more energy in your method than in mine.

Momentum is mass times velocity. Applying this to a finger depressing a key, what would the mass be? The mass depends on kinetic linking. For each muscle you are tensing connected to that finger, and their overall average M*V as you hit the key would give you the momentum. Obviously this is practically incalculable, but with simple logic we can tell what is going to take more energy.

First an obvious observation can be made, which is that:
If you aren't completely relaxed, then you have more mass.
If you are completely relaxed, then you have less mass.

Now lets say both your method and my method wanted to play the same chord at the same volume, 10 decibels. The piano doesn't care about mass, it only cares about velocity. So we both have to hit the key at the same velocity, "V".

If I play this chord only using the knuckle and beyond, and you play this chord from the wrist on. Assuming that your wrist weighs more than all my fingers playing the chord. And that KE = .5mv^2. Twice as much mass means twice as much energy. You used ATLEAST twice as much energy. And that is just on the down swing. With just the mass of the wrist compared to the knuckles. And ignoring that you are going to have to tense more than that to get this redirecting effect you talk of. AND IGNORING THE ENERGY YOU HAVE TO PUT INTO YOUR BODY TO ACTUALLY TENSE THESE MUSCLES at an "idle".

At this point I relax, and you press off it like a trampoline. Guess who's using more energy here too? Not only are you traveling more distance, which is more energy. You are also tensing your muscles, which is more mass. Then I don't use any energy to stop the finger, I simply let it crash then pick it up. While you are exerting energy on both the way up *and* the way down, trying to create this trampoline effect. All the while, doing it with more mass on your trampoline cause you aren't relaxing.

Then there's the icing on the cake. Throughout the piece your method is using the same exact muscles the entire time to create tension. Tensing your muscles is the act of pulling in both directions at the same time. No matter how much you are tensing, you are using more energy than a relaxed hand. And possibly infinitely more depending on whether I am using any energy at all. Considering I am mostly twitching as I play, most of the time this is the case.

But back to using the same muscles, as muscles are used they release lactic acid. Using the same muscles for a long period of time creates cramps as the acid builds up. This is actually akin to a resistance training workout for your hands, only less healthy and prone to injury because you are counteracting your own muscle with your own muscle which is always dangerous. One is going to push the other to it's the limit, be it in endurance, strength, or speed. All result in different types of injuries.

And finally, back to the trampoline thing:
A hand which hit's the ground going 10 m/s and bounces back up at 10 m/s has had a 20 m/s change in velocity. Comparing the energy of bouncing to crashing, a bouncing hand (all else equal, i.e not a comparison to my method) has *4 times* as much energy put into it.
KE = .5mv^2.
Double the change in velocity means quadruple the change in energy.

This is the game breaker. This makes any argument for bouncing a complete dupe. Your hand *should* crash into the keybed, relaxed as possible. The more relaxed you are the less of that extra energy is being exerted by you, and more by the piano and the non-rigid forces. Albeit, in most cases some tension is required to actually lift the finger after the key is played for the next note(s).

Besides a job, my engineering degree leaves me with alot of bs to dispel on the internet.

This is based on a total misunderstanding. If you only use the weight of the finger and an instant impulse, the natural stopping point IS the top of the key. The key automatically bounces a relaxed finger back. Only a finger that is activating will settle at the bottom.

The only misunderstanding here is that you don't understand both momentum and english. My finger isn't relaxed until an instant before the key hits the keybed. And a relaxed finger can push a semi-truck if it had enough velocity behind it.

[lelle]

Momentum is mass times velocity. Applying this to a finger depressing a key, what would the mass be? The mass depends on kinetic linking. For each muscle you are tensing connected to that finger, and their overall average M*V as you hit the key would give you the momentum. Obviously this is practically incalculable, but with simple logic we can tell what is going to take more energy.

First an obvious observation can be made, which is that:
If you aren't completely relaxed, then you have more mass.
If you are completely relaxed, then you have less mass.

I'm not sure I follow you. Why would the arm recieve more mass when you tense your muscles? Unless I've missed something important, wouldn't the mass be constant and the energy vary with the velocity applied to the arm/fingers? Speaking in a mathematical sense of course.

[nyiregyhazi]

I'm not sure I follow you. Why would the arm recieve more mass when you tense your muscles? Unless I've missed something important, wouldn't the mass be constant and the energy vary with the velocity applied to the arm/fingers? Speaking in a mathematical sense of course.

Indeed, I am as baffled as you are. Other than the fact that the entire post is based upon a complete misrepresentation of anything I said (apparently assuming that I somehow said you should tense your arm- rather than that I pointed out that a relaxed FINGER collapses), it's based on complete nonsense. Relaxing the arm brings its mass into play. Holding it back with the muscles restricts involvement of mass.

Regardless, I am not even talking about a situation where the arms momentum is coming into play. Having so much momentum contacting the keybed is the absolutely opposite of what I am referring to.