Book Discussion- Charles Rosin

[wintervind]

How many of you have read his book "Piano Notes". I would love to start a discussion.

[bernhard]

I have, and I found it very inspiring and astute.

[Clare]

I actually ordered that on amazon.com about 3 months ago, and it hasn't turned up in the mail yet.....

[rph108]

I'm about halfway through it and I don't agree with some of his practice methods. Particularly the one about  practicing something for a few hours while reading a book. It sounds inefficient.

[wintervind]

Which chapter was this in? I don't recall him condoning this type of practice. Perhaps during his music education he had tried this. Could you quote the passage?
Thanks!

[bernhard]

Which chapter was this in? I don't recall him condoning this type of practice. Perhaps during his music education he had tried this. Could you quote the passage?
Thanks!

Chapter 2, page 40:

The advantage of reading a book while practising for pure technique alone is that it enables us to forget the boredom of playing a passage over and over again, a dozen or fifty or a hundred times until tha body has absorbed it. Not all books, however lend themselves equally well to this employment. Poetry interferes subtly with the rhythm of the music, and so does really admirable prose. The most useful, I have found for myself, are detective stories, sociology and literary criticism. However any reading matter that distracts the mind without engaging the senses or the emotions too powerfully will work.

[steinwaymodeld]

Extremely good read.

Very Very interesting book.

Read Russel Sherman's 'Piano pieces' after that.

[wintervind]

Chapter 2, page 40:

The advantage of reading a book while practising for pure technique alone is that it enables us to forget the boredom of playing a passage over and over again, a dozen or fifty or a hundred times until tha body has absorbed it. Not all books, however lend themselves equally well to this employment. Poetry interferes subtly with the rhythm of the music, and so does really admirable prose. The most useful, I have found for myself, are detective stories, sociology and literary criticism. However any reading matter that distracts the mind without engaging the senses or the emotions too powerfully will work.

O yea, now I remember! Thanks

[bernhard]

Not much of a discussion so far…

Now here are some thoughts about reading books while practising.

1.      Yes, at first sight, it seems like a good idea, provided (as Rosen implies) that all the movement co-ordinates have been thoroughly investigated, and the pianist has arrived at the optimum fingering/position/movement for the piece/passage. I am sure Rosen would completely agree that to use this idea if you have not yet figured out the optimum physical movements would be to court disaster since you would be ingraining bad habits.

2.      However, there are two hidden assumptions here. The first one is that after you did all your investigative work and came up with the perfect co-ordinates, long hours of repetition are needed to ingrain these movements in your subconscious. I disagree with that. Personally I think that many pianists are obsessed with practice and they spend far more time than needed. Some repetition is certainly necessary, but if you have been careful when laying the foundation (that is, try to always practise correctly form the very beginning), ingraining will be surprisingly fast and pretty much permanent. I believe that the real problem is careless practice with the consequent ingraining of wrong movements and bad habits. Overcoming those is what will take years of repetition.

3.      The second hidden assumption is that repetition is boring and this boredom needs somehow to be alleviated (by reading a book or by watching TV). Again I disagree. The best way to deal with boredom is to be aware of the sensations involved in the activity you are engaged in. Hence, putting your awareness into a book rather than at the job at hand is sure to increase the boredom of practice.

4.      Finally, I believe that a practice session should always have a specific and clear aim, and the practice session ends when you can achieve your stated aim in a consistent manner. A practice session where you repeat movements while reading a book, cannot possibly be aim-oriented.

So here is my conclusion: Rosen’s idea makes a lot of sense if you happen to accept his hidden assumptions (practice is boring, ingraining movements in the subconscious will take hours of repetition). However I consider both his assumptions just strong superstitions amongst pianists (very strong). Furthermore, such a practice procedure would make practising with an aim pretty impossible.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[wintervind]

After re-reading this passage quoted (I loaned my book out so I unfortunately cannot use it as a reference!) I find it interesting that he would think reading while practicing is acceptable, while later to criticizing pianists for being to concerned with the technical aspects rather than producing music (Although he does include a disclaimer in the forward about how he sometimes rambles on and so forth, so who knows!)
In the second chapter ( as I recall) he describes in detail how most pianists, as opposed to other instrumentalist, are not in the habit of listening to what they are playing.  Therefore with intonation not being an issue pianists can fall into the habit of having to rely on recordings, and even teachers to tell them how they sound.
This whole idea seems to contradict his allowance of practicing while reading. But if it works for him then I guess "to each his own"!
 
I know I am rambling a bit but.... (and I am a bit disorganized)
I would like to make a comment on his chapter on recording.
I would like to speculate that the era of recordings may have done damage the life and education of live performance. It is virtualy impossible for a performer to replicate the perfection that a recording seems to provide. Splicing gives the illusion of the performer in their recording studio just playing through their program without much effort. Many, including myself, in the early stages of learning piano are duped into believing that all performances should be perfect and that professionals never make mistakes. Luckly I grew out of this, after seeing many great artists flub up on several occasions. But its the ones who never seem to get over this perfection thing that bothers me and I have watched them quit because they don't believe in themselves.

On the other hand, I bought Charles Rosen (sorry for the former miss spelling!) arguement as to why splicing is important to the art of recording. He claims it is absurd to replay a piece if it doesn't go perfectly the first time, and it is a waste of money. As a recording artist one needs to produce the most "flattering" represtation of their skills and musicianship.

Anyways, its late now and I have rambled on enough..
There is plenty where this came from, if you can decipher it.

[Egghead]

Blabla.... Put differently, when your technique for something isn't solid and automised yet, you need to pay attention to the sound you are producing etc.
Once your technique is solid and automised, you don't need to practice it anymore.
But then again, is this perhaps a bit black-and-white?
When something is half-automised, you start paying attention to different things, you can just let the whole thing happen and "zoom" in at will on different aspects. In my experience this can lead to further improvement.

Maybe the background stuff (reading/radio/TV) could have the function of helping some people with this: it first  breaks the habit of concentrating obsessively on what you are used to concentrating on. Once you are "detached" you start looking at what you are doing from a different angle? it sort of opens the mind and might be related to relaxation in a way?
blabla...Egghead

This quote is to provide a link to the infamous student thread on playing (scales initially) while reading/TV-watching etc. which had some people in FAVOUR of it. I tried very hard to find arguments why people could possibly do this.

Please could someone tell me how I should quote a thread properly. Thankyou.
Egghead

[bernhard]

Please could someone tell me how I should quote a thread properly. Thankyou.
Egghead

You seem to be doing fine...

[Spatula]

Well then what is one's purpose and aim while practicing their piano.  If they're finding that they must be stimulated simulatenously by various elements, everything from Books to Vibrators, then I highly disaggree with "Boredom Busters".

Where has the flavour of music gone?  Astray? Left? Right? To the Ashtray? Oh my!?!?!

That's my 3 cents.

[bernhard]

I would like to make a comment on his chapter on recording.
I would like to speculate that the era of recordings may have done damage the life and education of live performance. It is virtualy impossible for a performer to replicate the perfection that a recording seems to provide. Splicing gives the illusion of the performer in their recording studio just playing through their program without much effort. Many, including myself, in the early stages of learning piano are duped into believing that all performances should be perfect and that professionals never make mistakes. Luckly I grew out of this, after seeing many great artists flub up on several occasions. But its the ones who never seem to get over this perfection thing that bothers me and I have watched them quit because they don't believe in themselves.

Susan Tomes, the pianist with the Florestan trio, has written a wonderful book about her experiences as a performer and recording artist. Besides being a superb pianist, like Rosen she is a very articulate writer. I highly recommend her book to all (“Beyond the notes” – Boydell).

Why am I mentioning it here? Because she has a whole chapter devoted to recording as opposed to live performing (“A performer’s experience of recording”). She pretty much wraps it all up. Unless I come across some really outstanding work on this subject in the future, I say that she has said the last word on the subject.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[amanfang]

Sorry to bring this thread up again.... Has anyone read his other books on classical styling and the Romantic era?  Any comments?

[pianowelsh]

its 'Rosen' just to clarify. There is no earthly good in reading a book while you practice for goodness sake dont copy this! What are you trying to practice?!?!? have you ever been to a concert where the pianist has been reading a random book whilst playing from memory?!?!? If you get bored practising so quickly you should give up the piano and take up knitting! OR position your piano near a window with a nice view and treat yourself every 10 reps stop and have a look outside. Your focus when practising must be on what you are doing or your wasting your time! Some of his ideas are interesting and  i respect his playing but this advice is frankly lunacy!