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Messiaen: Vingt-Regards on a sampled Fazioli (Read 7672 times)

Offline Steffen Fahl

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Messiaen: Vingt-Regards on a sampled Fazioli
« on: July 07, 2011, 08:22:14 AM »
This is my Version of the Vingt Regards by Olivier Messiaen recorded 2008 on a sampled Fazioli:
01 Regarde du pere
02 Regarde de l'etoile

Offline Steffen Fahl

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Re: Messiaen: Vingt-Regards on a sampled Fazioli
«Reply #1 on: July 07, 2011, 08:29:24 AM »
the next two pieces:
03 L'echange
04 Regarde de la vierge

Offline Steffen Fahl

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Re: Messiaen: Vingt-Regards on a sampled Fazioli
«Reply #2 on: July 07, 2011, 08:33:55 AM »
05 Regarde du fils sur le fils

Offline Steffen Fahl

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Re: Messiaen: Vingt-Regards on a sampled Fazioli
«Reply #3 on: July 07, 2011, 08:38:08 AM »
06 Par lui tou est ete fait

Offline Steffen Fahl

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Re: Messiaen: Vingt-Regards on a sampled Fazioli
«Reply #4 on: July 07, 2011, 08:42:36 AM »
07 Regarde de la Croix
08 Regarde des hauteurs
09 Regard du temps

Offline Steffen Fahl

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Re: Messiaen: Vingt-Regards on a sampled Fazioli
«Reply #5 on: July 07, 2011, 08:46:02 AM »
10 Regard de l'esprit du joie

Offline Steffen Fahl

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Re: Messiaen: Vingt-Regards on a sampled Fazioli
«Reply #6 on: July 07, 2011, 08:49:04 AM »
11 Premier Communion de la vierge

Offline Steffen Fahl

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Re: Messiaen: Vingt-Regards on a sampled Fazioli
«Reply #7 on: July 07, 2011, 09:00:16 AM »
12 La parole toute puissante
13 Noel

Offline Steffen Fahl

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Re: Messiaen: Vingt-Regards on a sampled Fazioli
«Reply #8 on: July 07, 2011, 09:02:40 AM »
14 Regarde des Anges

Offline Steffen Fahl

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Re: Messiaen: Vingt-Regards on a sampled Fazioli
«Reply #9 on: July 07, 2011, 09:06:06 AM »
15 Le baiser de l'Enfant Jesus

Offline Steffen Fahl

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Re: Messiaen: Vingt-Regards on a sampled Fazioli
«Reply #10 on: July 07, 2011, 09:09:45 AM »
16 Regarde des prophètes des bergers et mages
17 Regard du silence

Offline Steffen Fahl

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Re: Messiaen: Vingt-Regards on a sampled Fazioli
«Reply #11 on: July 07, 2011, 09:12:33 AM »
18 Regard de l' onction terrible

Offline Steffen Fahl

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Re: Messiaen: Vingt-Regards on a sampled Fazioli
«Reply #12 on: July 07, 2011, 09:15:33 AM »
19 Je dors mais mon coeur vielle

Offline Steffen Fahl

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Re: Messiaen: Vingt-Regards on a sampled Fazioli
«Reply #13 on: July 07, 2011, 09:18:48 AM »
20 Regard de l'Eglise d'amour

Offline Steffen Fahl

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Re: Messiaen: Vingt-Regards on a sampled Fazioli
«Reply #14 on: July 07, 2011, 09:35:33 AM »
The story of this project began already before my pianostudies in Austria, when I fell instantly in love with this tremendous work after the first aquaintance, studied more and more of its pieces, played some of them in a Concert of the Musikhochschule. Than a few years ago I finally came back to my wish to practice the whole Cycle. I practiced it for more than two years beside Bach WTK, Haydn Sonatas and Liszt Studies, which have been the first projects for my site Klassik-resampled. I had enough time in those two years for hours of daily praticing.

After finishing the Bach, Haydn and Liszt recordings, which are all played on a midikeyboard to get the music transformed into mididata edited after to improve my musical intentions, I decided to start the Messiaen directly from the score with editing. Consequently I programmed therefor the whole score in midifiles and edited them after, in the way I used to understand the music when I have practiced it before.

The whole procedure still took several month to complete and I am sure, I would never been able to programm anything musical reasonable if I had not studied and practiced the composition for long time on the piano before. Still I know that it is far from being perfect, but it is still a document of my occupation to develop a reasonable musical interpretation, with the means of our time. I hope it would not offend you so much.
best
Steffen

Offline richard black

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Re: Messiaen: Vingt-Regards on a sampled Fazioli
«Reply #15 on: July 07, 2011, 08:49:55 PM »
Interesting idea, but it strikes me that you have MASSIVELY over-edited it in the interests of getting closer to the score - or closer to how the score looks superficially. The thing is that Messiaen's notation is not necessarily very literal and the music clearly works best when the player uses plenty of rubato and also dynamic variations over and above those indicated on the page. This version is of course pretty much flawlessly accurate, but I'm afraid my musical reaction to it is 'so what?'.

Incidentally you've set the recording level considerably too high and most of the louder moments overload audibly. And I still think your synthesiser sounds like exactly what it is - a synth! For sure electronic imitations of a piano are getting closer but they've got a helluva long way to go yet. (In fact I've long argued that an electronic imitation of a piano that achieves something like truly realistic acoustic-piano sound will be of similar size, weight and cost to a real piano.)
Instrumentalists are all wannabe singers. Discuss.

Offline Steffen Fahl

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Re: Messiaen: Vingt-Regards on a sampled Fazioli
«Reply #16 on: July 08, 2011, 08:10:55 AM »
Hi Richard,
You are right in respect to the recording level. My fault was, that I uploaded the old files from 2008 without check them before once more. Therefore I now rerenderd all pieces with a better sampleset and better settings. In so far the problem of the recording level should be solved right now.

In respect to your thought about the sound, I dont want to discuss orthodox ideologies any longer. Just to rectify the boldest misconceptions:

1) You dont hear any syntheziser nor any synthezised sound at all. Each single tone you hear is not more and not less synthezised than any other single tone of any other recorded pianomusic, since a sampleset consist in nothing else but thousands of detailed and precise recordings of the single tones of a "real grandpiano".
2) I know that lack of technical knowledge might produce also the misconception, that rubato and dynamics are restricted on striking the keys of a wodden piano. No this is not the case. The sequencer i use let me edit especially those aspects very prezisly. Of course all pieces need alot of specific variations in tempo and dynamic, which indeed are largly applied in all my recordings, just in the way I used to apply them while practicing and playing those pieces in the years before.

Therefore, what you hear is not the doom of occidental musicculture, but just my however imperfect but human interpretations of Messiaens great compositions.
best Steffen

Offline richard black

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Re: Messiaen: Vingt-Regards on a sampled Fazioli
«Reply #17 on: July 08, 2011, 08:41:07 AM »

1) You dont hear any syntheziser nor any synthezised sound at all. Each single tone you hear is not more and not less synthezised than any other single tone of any other recorded pianomusic, since a sampleset consist in nothing else but thousands of detailed and precise recordings of the single tones of a "real grandpiano".
2) I know that lack of technical knowledge might produce also the misconception, that rubato and dynamics are restricted on striking the keys of a wodden piano. No this is not the case. The sequencer i use let me edit especially those aspects very prezisly. Of course all pieces need alot of specific variations in tempo and dynamic, which indeed are largly applied in all my recordings, just in the way I used to apply them while practicing and playing those pieces in the years before.

Therefore, what you hear is not the doom of occidental musicculture, but just my however imperfect but human interpretations of Messiaens great compositions.
best Steffen

I didn't mean to imply that the lack of rubato and dynamic variation were down to limitations of the synth (and it is a synth, of course, a sampled synth is still a synth); rather, that you have deliberately edited them out. So I'm taking issue with you on artistic grounds here - allow a little more freedom for the music!
Instrumentalists are all wannabe singers. Discuss.

Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Messiaen: Vingt-Regards on a sampled Fazioli
«Reply #18 on: July 08, 2011, 12:12:16 PM »
You dont hear any syntheziser nor any synthezised sound at all.

Oh for fucks sake... not this argument again. After listening to a few of them again - let me just say this very clearly.

They ARE synthesized sounds. Did you play these piece on an actual acoustic piano or did you play them on an electric piano and then use sound sampling on the midi data to produce a recording that resembles an acoustic piano???

Oh wait - I'm pretty sure I can answer that myself:

This is my Version of the Vingt Regards by Olivier Messiaen recorded 2008 on a sampled Fazioli:

Just because you use sound-sampling doesn't mean it sounds exactly the same as a real piano. The human ear can detect the most incredible minute differences in sound... so just because your sound samples came from a Fazioli doesn't mean they sound EXACTLY as a fazioli.

That's like saying listening to a DVD of Pink live in concert, is the same as listening to Pink live in Concert... it's not even close.

Offline gep

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Re: Messiaen: Vingt-Regards on a sampled Fazioli
«Reply #19 on: July 08, 2011, 01:49:14 PM »
I'm sorry, but a "sampled piano" is akin to "synthesized meat" or "cybersex". It may seem to be like (or even pretend to be all but identical to) the real thing, but the difference is rather noticable....
In the long run, any words about music are less important than the music. Anyone who thinks otherwise is not worth talking to (Shostakovich)

Offline Steffen Fahl

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Re: Messiaen: Vingt-Regards on a sampled Fazioli
«Reply #20 on: July 08, 2011, 03:34:14 PM »
please inform yourself before posting:
look for instance here
Syntheziser "producing sounds by generating electrical signals"
Sampler" instead of generating sounds, it uses recordings (or "samples") of sounds that are loaded or recorded into it by the user and then played back by means of a keyboard, sequencer or other triggering device"

...in so far I dont use any sounds that are syntheticly "generated electrical signals" but recordings of a fazioli Grand there is in fact physically no difference between a recorded pianotone (all you can here in the mp3-files of the auditionroom) and a recorded pianotone (of a sampler) - beside the fact, that presumably there are not so much people playing on a fazioli ;-).
best Steffen

Offline Steffen Fahl

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Re: Messiaen: Vingt-Regards on a sampled Fazioli
«Reply #21 on: July 08, 2011, 03:52:17 PM »
I didn't mean to imply that the lack of rubato and dynamic variation were down to limitations of the synth (and it is a synth, of course, a sampled synth is still a synth); rather, that you have deliberately edited them out. So I'm taking issue with you on artistic grounds here - allow a little more freedom for the music!
Hi Richard,
Thank you for your musical intended reply. I did programmed as much freedom I used to take when playing the pieces. To argue on artistic grounds - what I am very happy to do - I would remind, that Messiaen is neither Chopin who looses all if you are not in every second free to change your time to mark all harmonic or melodic nuances, nor is he Ravel or Debussy who already composed so much freedom of musical thought in their scores so precisely, that any further rubato might just disturb what is intended by the composer. But Messiaen is in my opinion indeed a bit closer to Debussy and Ravel. Meanwhile i have applied in every piece recorded alredy so much tempovariations just to reflect how the composition sound being played, which you obviously dont realise, and would only hear if you would have the chance to hear the naked unedited score. But of course it is just my humble interpretation and as all interpretations just an attempt to realize, my imperfect understanding of those great compositions.  I would like to hear your version, to let me convince where more "freedom" might help to show the beauty of this music.
best
Steffen

Offline tsaij

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Re: Messiaen: Vingt-Regards on a sampled Fazioli
«Reply #22 on: July 08, 2011, 05:48:19 PM »
Quote
... there is in fact physically no difference between a recorded pianotone (all you can here in the mp3-files of the auditionroom) and a recorded pianotone (of a sampler) - beside the fact, that presumably there are not so much people playing on a fazioli ;-).

this would be true, maybe, if i were to play a piece single notes at a time, and then superimpose them – but the overtones of sympathetic vibration and subtle gradations of damper pedal are what i'm missing in listening to this. the tones have no opportunity to blend and resonate with each other, and as a result the recordings just sound much too clean. one only needs to listen to yvonne loriod play "par lui tout a été fait" to hear all the colors that are missing.

that said, congratulations on such a huge undertaking, and for getting to know this work.

Offline richard black

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Re: Messiaen: Vingt-Regards on a sampled Fazioli
«Reply #23 on: July 08, 2011, 06:02:59 PM »
Hi Richard,
Thank you for your musical intended reply. I did programmed as much freedom I used to take when playing the pieces. ...  I would like to hear your version, to let me convince where more "freedom" might help to show the beauty of this music.

I would like to hear my version too! I've been meaning to spend some time getting to know that piece in the fingers as well as the ears for a long time now (though I doubt I'd ever perform it - I'm not a solo pianist, really), but I've been so busy with accompanying work that it keeps getting put aside.

My idea of how much rubato to use could be exemplified by any of the several very fine recordings that piece has had - for instance, Loriod, Troup or Rajna (not forgetting the more recent recordings, none of which I own, yet).
Instrumentalists are all wannabe singers. Discuss.

Offline Steffen Fahl

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Re: Messiaen: Vingt-Regards on a sampled Fazioli
«Reply #24 on: July 08, 2011, 07:25:27 PM »
Hi Richard, Hi tsaj, (Thank you tsaj for your kind remark on the work I invested in my project.)

It is as I said by locally changing the kind of mesure Messiaen composed a lot of the rubatoeffects he intends as a composer already in his score. But still there are enough situations, where at least a kind of microrubato is musically necessary and aswell applied in my versions, in the way I felt it to be apropriate. But this also indeed a matter of interpretational taste and freedom.

Infact I would never pretend to mesure up in this respect with Yvonne Loriod. But honestly would or should anyone stop playing Chopin, just because we had Rubinstein and Pollini. Messiaens music is just that fascinating, that I for long years had the wish to delv deeper into this piece. What you hear is nothing more than just my version.

I know, that the samples are recorded very clean. this is necessary to give the user more freedom to shape the apropriate acoustic environment for his own intentions. Perhaps I have to focus the acoustic settings in this respect a bit more. I will think about.

The Idea that sympathetic resonance might be more difficult task for pianosamples than just playing one recorded note for a certain key is theoretically correct. It is a challenge for sampled music like the legato of sampled strings. But the sampleproducers had already solved this problem with indeed a huge work invested and indeed more complex kind of software they developed for that. Indeed the sampleset I used 2008 did not had this feature yet, but the sampleset I used now for the new render does include exactly this aspect of sympathetic resonance.

best
Steffen
Edit here are some further Recordings from Messiaen and 20th century composers produced by myself likewise

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Messiaen: Vingt-Regards on a sampled Fazioli
«Reply #25 on: July 09, 2011, 01:45:48 AM »
Unemotional, unmusical and NON-REAL PIANO PLAYING (If you want to try and confuse people by saying there is a difference between synthesized and sampled be my guest), nothing different from your past creations, good to see your delusions of grandeur still exist some of which perfect pitch has already pointed out. Nothing wrong with the work you are doing but to put it on par with real pianists creating real recordings is just delusional, your work has its place but please stop trying to convince people that what you do is with great musical consideration because it is not and that is clear to the majority of us who know piano music well.
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Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Messiaen: Vingt-Regards on a sampled Fazioli
«Reply #26 on: July 09, 2011, 06:06:33 AM »
...in so far I dont use any sounds that are syntheticly "generated electrical signals" but recordings of a fazioli Grand there is in fact physically no difference between a recorded pianotone

Physically no difference? Maybe...

Audibly? Huge *** difference.

And fahl5 - we could do without the what sound like pleasurable-and-slightly-light-hearted opinion, which are simply sugar-coated condescending insults.

If you're trying to convince us that these recordings are just as good as a real proper performance, then you might as well try convincing a lion to turn vegan... because you might have more luck.

That's not to say that I don't admire how much effort you put into this stuff - but it's simply not even close to an acoustically recorded performance.



AND I SWEAR TO HELL... if you come back and say that they are the same as acoustically recorded performances - then you're simply ignorant. And I mean that in the nicest way, because we already had a discussion about this months ago - and I'm pretty sure it didn't end well... or do I need to remind you of the outcome of that thread???