(w/ pics!) Deciding between two pianos

[pbryld]

I finally went piano shopping today! The trip to the nearest major town is quite expensive due to a large bridge-fee, so unfortunately I rarely have the chance to do this.
I had a thread some time ago: long story short: I NEED a new (grand) piano.

I went to a lot of different stores and tried loads of upright and grand pianos.
Ultimately I decided that an upright is the way to go since I will be moving away from home and won't be able to have a grand. In 10-15 years I will definitely be going for a grand.

To make it short, I did not like most of the stuff i saw. Zimmermann was very decent, Bechstein really nice and Yamaha had good mechanics but i did not like the sound.

I had almost decided on the 125 (4'1") Bechstein Academy when we went to another store that had an old Steinway at half the price of the Bechstein, and it was a 150 cm (4'9") model as well. So really huge.
It sounded and felt seriously good, better than the Bechstein and some of the new Steinway grands as well. It is cheap because it is (in most peoples eyes) quite ugly. The store can't get rid of it.

Anyways, we went to a different store and I tried a Yamaha U3, expecting it to sound like the the others I had tried. It did not. He said he had made the voicing so it sounded very soft (good for romantic music, which I am looking for), and it indeed sounded that way - I really liked it, as much (if not more) as the Bechstein.
It sounded nothing like the other Yamahas I tried, not even the large grands. The touch was nice as well.
As far at the price goes, it was 20% less than the old Steinway. (mentioning prices here doesn't make sense because prices are +200%)

So.. The choice stands between the Steinway and Yamaha. Now here comes the problems and questions:

The Steinway is from 1922, but have had pins and strings replaced so I guess i shouldn't be worried about those. As mentioned i really liked the mechanics, they felt really (!) light, just the way I want it (also covered by the warranty anyways). It came from a pianist, so quite well cared for I'd expect. I appreciate the ivory keys as well, not that they really matter.
BUT, is it too old? I want to keep it for 10-15 years. The seller promised me that the quality of Steinway is sublime and assured me all Steinways last 125-150 years, more than enough for me. The mechanics seemed fine so should I be worried?
Also, after 15 years of use, would it be resellable?

The Yamaha was really nice and so was the price, altough I did like the Steinway better (both sound and feel).
The thing is, if the Steinway will not last me, I will not be able to do anything with it after 5 years. I'll have to buy something new from scratch.
All stores here have a 5 year full return policy as long as I buy a more expensive piano. That way I can buy the Yahama (which is used) and after 5 years exchange it for a new one. After 5 years I can return that and buy a more expensive piano to renew the return again and after 5 years finally buy the grand I ultimately want. That way, although compromising a bit on sound and feel (for possibly a long time), I will keep a chunk of money for the grand (about 1/6 in the end i'm guessing).
(On a side note, the Yamaha will be nearly worthless if I don't use the return policy, right?)


Which is more sensible?

[bbush]

Your questions are complex, but I think they boil down to fear and feel; fear that you won't get enough of your money back when you sell and upgrade, and feel of the piano that you obviously like best (the Steinway).

Now, I wouldn't agree that "the Yamaha will be worth almost nothing" in five years, but it's almost a given that the Steinway will hold its value.  And you like it best and it sounds like it's in your price range, so... haven't you answered your own main question?

Good Luck!
Bruce
PS - If you're not afraid to get into refinishing, maybe you can make the Steinway look better by the time you'll be able to upgrade.

[keys60]

I agree that the Steinway will retain a greater value on the market but disagree that it will last 125-150 years. They are made of wood, felt, glue and metal like any other piano. It is at the mercy of its environment and needs regular care, maintenance and repairs just like any other piano.  They are however designed better than many other pianos and will perform quite well if well cared for. Don't believe everything a salesperson tells you. He's making a hefty profit on a 90 year old piano.

[pbryld]

Your questions are complex, but I think they boil down to fear and feel; fear that you won't get enough of your money back when you sell and upgrade, and feel of the piano that you obviously like best (the Steinway).

Now, I wouldn't agree that "the Yamaha will be worth almost nothing" in five years, but it's almost a given that the Steinway will hold its value.  And you like it best and it sounds like it's in your price range, so... haven't you answered your own main question?

Good Luck!
Bruce
PS - If you're not afraid to get into refinishing, maybe you can make the Steinway look better by the time you'll be able to upgrade.

My main concern is if the Stweinway will last me those 10-15 years, actaully :-)

I don't mean the Yamaha will be worthless in five years, but when I want to upgrade in 10-15 years, I would think it wouldn't be worth much.

As for the PS, I had been thinking exactly the same :-)

[pbryld]

I agree that the Steinway will retain a greater value on the market but disagree that it will last 125-150 years. They are made of wood, felt, glue and metal like any other piano. It is at the mercy of its environment and needs regular care, maintenance and repairs just like any other piano.  They are however designed better than many other pianos and will perform quite well if well cared for. Don't believe everything a salesperson tells you. He's making a hefty profit on a 90 year old piano.

If well cared for, will it last me those 10-15 years then? That is still quite some years from just 125.

[john90]

My main concern is if the Stweinway will last me those 10-15 years, actaully :-)

If the piano is in good shape now, it should be fine in another 15 years, if looked after, (humidity, temperature, tuning etc.). If the Steinway has survived this long, and is still literally the best piano in town, then I would have more concerns with the used Yamaha, which has a lot to prove, and still isn't there yet. Water leaks and massive, rapid temperature changes are the things you need to protect older pianos from.

If the piano isn't selling, try offering 20% less. Point out there is a recession on, it is over priced and hasn't sold, it has to last you 15 years, that you are probably going to have to get the keyboard bushings done, and the action repinned in this time, and I don't want to pay XXX.

[richard black]

Steinway always did build a piano to last - laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaast! I play one sometimes that lives in a local church - the place is used by one opera company to rehearse. The piano dates from about 1880 and looks as if it's not been restored, ever. Still plays very nicely. It's true, as someone says here, that the environment has an effect but if the instrument you are looking at is fundamentally OK now, it's almost certain to be in very playable condition after 15 years.

[pbryld]

John90: Will definitely try offering less.

RB. Good to know!


It turns out the piano isn't from 1922, it's actually from 1911! That does make it quite a bit older and changes the story as well (?). Is it now on the edge of being too old? It sounds like you are saying it will last me at least 15 years, but now 10 of those have been taken away!

Also, I found out it is a model T. Does anyone know of this?

[pianolive]

Yamaha made a mod T121
Ford made a T mod
Steinway made V and K
No T as far as I know.

[jimbo320]

I always go with Yamaha. If the tinny sound is an issue, a good replacing of the strings will take care of that. Mapes Co. out of TN make very good sounding strings. Or changing the voicing works too.
Yes Yamaha verticals are capable of sounding a bit off but most verticals do no matter what brand to me. As you know, the longer the strings the better the sound. For this reason, and some others, always go with a grand. IMHO...

[john90]

My concern over age would be more about age of design and total piano weight. Old uprights designs can be heavier than a baby grand. A worn out Steinway will sell for a lot more (2x) than an equally poor Yamaha. If you are only paying say 30% more than the price of an unrestored Steinway, then you are reasonably confident of your worst case losses.

[pbryld]

Yamaha made a mod T121
Ford made a T mod
Steinway made V and K
No T as far as I know.

They also made a Z. Haven't been able to find anything on a T-model though..

[pbryld]

I always go with Yamaha. If the tinny sound is an issue, a good replacing of the strings will take care of that. Mapes Co. out of TN make very good sounding strings. Yes Yamaha verticals are capable of sounding a bit off but most verticals do no matter what brand to me. As you know, the longer the strings the better the sound. For this reason, and some others, always go with a grand. IMHO...

This particular Yamaha does not really have tinny sound.

The Steinway's strings are longer than smaller grands'.

[pbryld]

My concern over age would be more about age of design and total piano weight. Old uprights designs can be heavier than a baby grand. A worn out Steinway will sell for a lot more (2x) than an equally poor Yamaha. If you are only paying say 30% more than the price of an unrestored Steinway, then you are reasonably confident of your worst case losses.

The piano is going to be on floor level and will be moved by pros.

I am not sure i understand the last thing you've written. Could you rephrase?

Also, did I mention there is a 10 year warranty on it? Covers about anything but the strings.

[ionian_tinnear]

I have two pianos.

#1: 1924 Steinway Model 'M' which I got a few months ago and am in the process of having it fixed.  Needs action rebuild, but that's ok it is 87 yrs old, and still plays, but plays like its 87 years old with no rebuild since then! (yes, it has ALL the original action parts except for three hammer/shafts).  So Steinways do last and last and last.  My technician drools over it (he has an older 7' Mason Hamlin).

#2: 1980 Kawaii CE-8 which they called a 'profesionnal studio upright'.  We've had absolutely no problems with it.  Sounds great, plays great, stays in tune exceptionally well, but is not a grand.  I beat the thing hard, and it took it all without issues.  Does not have the tinnie treble sound of the Yamahas.  My technician loves it.

I've seen so many of the Yamaha uprights that just can't take heavy use.  I work a lot in musical theatres.  They get a lot of Yamahas, grands and uprights.  The actions get to loose, the strings break, etc.  But still the best piano in town, IMO, is a 9' Yamaha...

Long run opinion:  Yes, Steinway.  It will last generations, not lose value as long as its maintained, which isn't that hard to do.  Yamaha? Sorry no, unless you can afford the super top-end.  Kawaii? Maybe.  They last, but if you really want a light action, test drive a lot of them until you find the right one.

[jimbo320]

Steinway do resell for more than Yamaha but it's probably relative to Steinway costing more to begin with....
It all comes down to personal preferences...

[john90]

I am not sure i understand the last thing you've written. Could you rephrase?

A Steinway needing restoration usually has resale value (repair cost is less than value of restored piano). Try and figure out how much this piano would be worth today if it needed extensive restoration, and was unplayable, or close to it. Say 1800. The figure of 1800 inflation adjusted, might give you the value of the piano, hopefully very worst case, in 15 years time.

You can't do these sums with a Yamaha, as it is cheaper to buy a 2 yr old one than fully restore the piano.

[pbryld]

A Steinway needing restoration usually has resale value (repair cost is less than value of restored piano). Try and figure out how much this piano would be worth today if it needed extensive restoration, and was unplayable, or close to it. Say 1800. The figure of 1800 inflation adjusted, might give you the value of the piano, hopefully very worst case, in 15 years time.

You can't do these sums with a Yamaha, as it is cheaper to buy a 2 yr old one than fully restore the piano.

That made more sense to me.

Anyways, I offered 20% less and they accepted! So now I am waiting to sign the contract and have my new old Steinway shipped! Thanks for all the help.

By the way, they are sure it is a model T. I can't find ANYTHING on the internet about that particular model. How can that be?

[pianolive]

Please, upload some photos of the piano! Both ex- and interior.

[richard black]

It all comes down to personal preferences...

Actually, historically, a lot of it comes down to Steinway having very good publicity and marketing, and Yamaha having VERY good publicity and marketing.

[pbryld]

Please, upload some photos of the piano! Both ex- and interior.

Will do as soon as I get it :-)

[pbryld]

Please, upload some photos of the piano! Both ex- and interior.

Here you go
And a recording: https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=42797.0

[jimbo320]

You might not like this but to me that sounds on the tinny side.......sorry
IMHO tho...

[keys60]

Its impossible to see the extent of work done to that piano. The hammers look like they have been replaced too. Everything looks straight from here. Wonder if the pinblock was replaced. (?)Looks like there may be a crack in the soundboard on the lower right, maybe not, but some cracks in the soundboard are superficial and if it doesn't buzz, don't worry about it. Its a nice piano and you love it. All the best with it. I hope you two develop a nice relationship. I know I'd be proud of it.

[john90]

Well, I think it looks stunning. One of the best looking cases I have seen in a long time. Nicely polished too.

You might not like this but to me that sounds on the tinny side.......sorry
IMHO tho...

.
Jimbo is a big Yamaha fan. The only Yamaha pianos I like are the ones made in Austria. I liked the sound of this. Reassuringly a typical Steinway. You mentioned trading up in 15 years. That is just the sort of piano a dealer would be happy to take in part exchange. I think you will have a problem upgrading though, finding something nicer.