Memory issues, could use some support...

[outin]

Now that I have been playing for a few months and had a couple of lessons, I am getting really annoyed with my head. My ability to memorize things has never been very good, but I have done quite well in life by compensating with my other intellectual skills.

But with piano playing it's difficult: I don't sight read well enough yet to play new pieces fluently from the scores. It's easy for me to learn the rhytm and musical side of the pieces, but I use a lot of time to learn the notes and fingerings. I usually play the piece nicely after a few sessions. But even after playing it for 30 or more times I'm still totally lost if I don't follow the score. And these are short pieces, not works of many pages. It's very typical that when I need to play repeated sections they are perfect the first time and the second time I just forget everything because I "forget" to follow the score.

I think I've noticed this now because when I get pieces from my teacher I practice them a lot more than I would with pieces I take on myself. Feels silly to go to the lesson unprepared. Usually my playing sounds nice for a while until I forget something again and get totally lost. Also some days everything is very easy and other days I can't remember something I thought was completely learned. I try to follow the fingerings properly and sometimes just  to remember those seems to overload my memory capasity

Also it's annoying that something I do remember and play from memory is completely forgotten if I don't touch it for a week.

The only pieces that I seem to remember are the difficult ones where I actually have to work hard to be able to play them in the first place. So I'm not sure whether this is also a problem of concentration and motivation? I just don't want to jump into pieces that are technically difficult too soon, so I think I need to work on the easier ones.

My hand technique is getting better all the time, but I feel my mind cannot follow. I have started to wonder if a naturally good memory is actually a requirement to fluent piano playing? I might have had this same problem when I was a kid, but those days I didn't really practice, so I can't tell whether that could have been the main reason of not advancing better...

With time I'm sure my sight reading will get better but I'm so damn frustrated with the memory issues. I wonder if memorizing gets any  easier and more reliable with practice?

Just needed to vent a little... maybe I should not try to practice seriously after a long day at work.

[keypeg]

Does your teacher ask you to memorize?

[outin]

I don't think the teacher has so much expectations, I'm not sure he has a clear idea yet about my abilities. He actually asked me to practice HS something that only took me an hour to learn HT.

But this problem occurs even when I can use the score, since I tend to to stop following it at some point trusting too much the muscle memory I guess. 

I wonder if I should just change the way I practice. When it comes to exercises and pieces that are really not that difficult... Do you think it's ok to just move on to another piece after I am able to play the piece nicely most of the time? Is it a waste of time trying to learn easy pieces so well that I can play it properly (without memory lapses) every time? I guess I thought sticking to it would train my memory but I am not sure anymore...

[brogers70]

I have no idea whether this is relevant for you, but it might be helpful to learn more theory, if you have not done so already. If you have an idea of what chord progressions are going on you may find it easier to remember. So your brain will just remember, "OK this is a II-V-I cadence coming up", rather than remembering 12 or 15 different notes. Or you recognize that this bit is a long dominant pedal preparing the recapitulation, and that helps you clump together a lot of notes. Even more simply, if you do not know how to recognize the fragments of scales and chords and arpeggios by name, doing so will let you remember "an ascending scale in Db in dotted sixteenths over two octaves," rather than 16 individual notes.

It may be that you already know all of this stuff anyway and it hasn't helped. But if you don't know much music theory, you may find that it helps you reduce the number of individual items you have to remember to remember a piece.

You might also try listening many times to a recording of the piece and then trying to play it back in your mind without touching the piano. That will strengthen the non-muscle bits of your memory.

Good luck.

[keypeg]

Outin, the reason I asked is because it is possible that you are trying to do something which is not necessary or expected.  You may have the wrong idea about why you are working on an assigned piece, and what "learning" it means.

Your teacher might be assigning you pieces so that you learn how to play pieces of various levels that have different kinds of challenges.  Playing new pieces are like practicing skills which you need.  You could ask your teacher what goals he has for you or what he wants you to concentrate on when you practice.  Ask him how to practice - how to divide up your time, what little goals he wants you to reach.

You can learn to play a piece well and have an idea about the piece while reading it.  You can also learn to memorize the whole piece and play it from memory.  Many people are able to do both.

In regards to knowing how to memorize, I agree with the person who wrote about theory.  When you start understanding the music, then it is also easier to remember.  You have chord progressions.  You also have patterns like when it is the same at the beginning and the end, and different in the middle so you can predict the music.  (Called an ABA pattern).  Then it's more like the music unfolding for you like a map, rather than memorizing it measure by measure.

[outin]

Thanks for the suggestions.

About theory:
I agree about the theory. I have read music theory before and I do like to read books about music history and analyses. But I find it just as difficult to memorize the names of the simple chords, intervals and such, even though I can understand the principles when I read about them. But I have now started learning the scales/keys one by one and when I'm done I will see what would be next.

My memory is functioning very well when it comes to music itself. I have no problem remembering how the piece should sound or singing a tune even if I only hear it once. But I often can't remember the names or lyrics. Maybe I just don't find those things interesting enough...

I do not rely much on my teacher and I think he is still testing my present level. I have no idea about his teaching methods yet. I started lessons for two reasons: To make sure I don't have something terribly wrong in my technique and to get used to playing for someone instead just by myself. Whatever I have ever learned I have learned by myself, I'm used to independent study. So I'm afraid this is an issue between me and my brain matter, not between me and my teacher

The positive side is that I steadily progress in the way my playing sounds. So maybe I will just ignore the memory problems for now. It is my general habit to be a perfectionist and I normally solve problems with little effort. I think I just need to get used to making mistakes every now and then.

[keypeg]

Theory is not about memorizing names of chords.  Also, to study theory it is better to work with music rather than reading about theory.  It is an active back and forth process which includes sound itself.  In fact, you can involve the pieces you are learning.

Your teacher should be guiding you in this. However you learn on your own, he can give you other approaches and then you will be learning along more than one avenue.  This is probably a great portion of your answer.

[fleetfingers]

The only pieces that I seem to remember are the difficult ones where I actually have to work hard to be able to play them in the first place. So I'm not sure whether this is also a problem of concentration and motivation? I just don't want to jump into pieces that are technically difficult too soon, so I think I need to work on the easier ones.

This is naturally going to happen, because you are spending more time on the piece and concentrating hard on the same parts over and over again.

The other issues you mention are normal, too. I can read a piece of music 30+ times and still not have it memorized, and I don't think I'm unusual. Generally, you have to conciously try to memorize something for it to really stick.

You should not try to memorize everything. Especially the easier stuff; learn it and move on.

If there is a piece you are wanting to memorize for performance, it will take some time. But there are various kinds of memorization to consider: muscle, aural, visual, and spatial. The more you incorporate, the better you will truly know the piece and the less likely you will be to forget it. As you conciously work on memorizing, it will get easier.

Bernhard, a respected member of this forum, once suggested that, if you really want to have a piece memorized, you should: learn it first, forget it completely, and then re-learn it.

[raphaelinparis]

even after playing it for 30 or more times I'm still totally lost if I don't follow the score.

that sound typical of someone playing way too fast when practicing.
You want to memorize ? You should play VERY SLOWLY.
If you tell me "I've played it 30 times" it means that you probably play it at full speed, many times, hoping that the repetition will imprint the piece in your brain... guess what, it's just too fast and your brain can't cope with speed. Hence you just build some shallow "finger memory", that fades after just one week.
I had exactly the same problem when I started. My teacher taught me how to work slowly and that fixed the problem.

[fleetfingers]

that sound typical of someone playing way too fast when practicing.

Not necessarily. It doesn't matter if you play fast or slow when reading music; it's a matter of paying attention and trying to memorize. People can handle memorizing while playing at different speeds, depending on their level. I think I understand what you're saying and how it helped you memorize, but it needn't apply to everyone at all times.

[raphaelinparis]

Not necessarily. It doesn't matter if you play fast or slow when reading music; it's a matter of paying attention and trying to memorize. People can handle memorizing while playing at different speeds, depending on their level. I think I understand what you're saying and how it helped you memorize, but it needn't apply to everyone at all times.

Let's say that you need to work at a speed which is low enough for your brain to cope with. For someone with less than 1 year of piano playing, this means that you should work very slowly...the problem with speed is also that maybe if you play "fast" maybe it is slow enough for you to memorize, but is it also slow enough to have a solid technique and good control of sound at the same time, AND memorize, AND saying the notes in your head, AND counting (sometimes)...that is quite a lot of things to do at the same time, and "slow" is often the answer ...
anyway...give it a try...slowing down is not difficult at all...

[outin]

I agree that sometimes playing slow reveals the fact that it's only in muscle memory, different speed makes the fingers confused. But I did not mean that I play a piece 30 times on ONE session, I meant that after playing it for a couple of weeks two times a day I still can't remember perfectly.

But I am starting to see it's not so much having bad memory, it's concentration. Especially when tired my mind kind of shuts down and that's where the problems start. On a good day I can easily visualize the piece in my mind, but on a bad day it's all gone. I guess I have to accept the fact that no amount of practicing will compensate for the lack of concentration. I kind of thought I could get away with it after the piece is "learned"

I am not so worried about studying theory, since I'm naturally curious and analytic and it will gradually come with studying the pieces. But learning the theory first and then learn to play is not my thing. We have to remember that all people do not learn in a similar way. When one is not young anymore, the processes of learning are usually quite fixed, so one has to adapt to the brain processes rather than try to change them. The way I learn has always been a bit unconventional, but even if sceptic at first, my teachers (in other things than music) have usually admitted that my way is quite efficient and it works for me.

Which brings me to the subject of my teacher. After a disappointing lesson I think it just won't work. I cannot see how these lessons will benefit my learning in any way. He does not challenge me at all, I hardly play at all during the lesson and I have to beg for pieces that are not completely out of my interest zone (=proper classical music). He also does not ask me if I already know the notation details, but explains me things are are basic knowledge when giving the new pieces. He is not interested in the way I practice or what other pieces I play at home. He also does not suggest any formal exercises. I think his aim is to make me relax by talking a lot about other things than the music but it just distracts me.

I'm a serious person and I don't want to waste time on lessons if I still create my own learning plan at home. Looking back I advanced better BEFORE starting these lessons. I think what I would like is a more "old fashioned" teacher who is not so much nice but expects serious hard work and results. I just have no idea where to find one...

[keyboardclass]

Let's say that you need to work at a speed which is low enough for your brain to cope with. For someone with less than 1 year of piano playing, this means that you should work very slowly...the problem with speed is also that maybe if you play "fast" maybe it is slow enough for you to memorize, but is it also slow enough to have a solid technique and good control of sound at the same time, AND memorize, AND saying the notes in your head, AND counting (sometimes)...that is quite a lot of things to do at the same time, and "slow" is often the answer ...
anyway...give it a try...slowing down is not difficult at all...

Right on Raphael.  You know your stuff.  Memory really seems to work outside of time - you can lean as slowly as you like and yet, if your technique is correct, the piece is there as fast as required. 

[danhuyle]

I learned the theory up to grade 4 and applied it into the music.

@outin What pieces are you playing/learning at the moment?

After I have a piece memorized I leave it and come back to it numerous times.

Anyone have tips to memorize Fugues (Bach or Shostakovich)? Is there an approach you use to memorize it.

The pieces I can play from memory, like Chopin Scherzo 1&2, Fantasie op49, liszt la campanella, scriabin etude op8/12. These ones stick all the time while many other pieces peel off.

Anyway, I can play Shostakovich P&F op87 no24 slowly with music, and when it comes to memorizing, I have a hard time, a really hard time.

The challenge - Multiple melodies.

When it comes to memorizing something like Liszt La Campanella it's a straight forward structure. Main theme - g# minor. 2nd theme B major, D# minor, f# major, c#minor, b major and back to G# minor. Rinse and repeat. By the knowing the key I'm in, it filters out other notes and narrows it down to specific keys. That's how I memorize.

I play with the music to the point where I find myself not being able to follow it. That's a good sign to start memorizing as well.

[outin]

Danhuyle:
I was on my way working through different grade 2-3 pieces on this site before I started the lessons, the most difficult being Chopin op. 28 #4. After I started the lessons I have used a lot of time playing the things my teacher gave me. Very easy songs or easy arrangements. I don't have any technical difficulty on playing them, but maybe because they don't interest me at all I tend to forget what I'm doing while playing. I feel I must get back to serious music, I found it so much more rewarding and enjoyable to practice.

When it comes to memorizing pieces, I have to admit that I have always hated mechanic  memorizing of any things and always try to avoid it as much as possible. It must happen unconsciously while working on something.

I wouldn't actually mind if I always needed the score to play, I don't have to perform. And I guess my original post was not about the real issue at all, it is more about being able to concentrate on playing instead of just letting my mind wonder and trust on the fingers to do the work

The discussion has been very helpful in sorting out my thoughts, thanks all!

[raphaelinparis]

Very easy songs or easy arrangements. I don't have any technical difficulty on playing them, but maybe because they don't interest me at all I tend to forget what I'm doing while playing.

man it sounds like you need a serious discussion with your teacher and that a break up is looming...you are not going to grow as a pianist if you play unchallenging repertoire and, even worse, uninteresting repertoire (so you won't care about control, technique...you will just play it hoping to move on to the next one = waste of time, waste of money, waste of motivation...)...
no need to worry about if you can't memorize bad music, it's enough work anyway to not waste time on memorizing uninteresting stuff.

[danhuyle]

Another thing about memorizing pieces is you have to fall in love with it. That's the bottom line. If it's a piece you love very much, you'll find a way to learn and memorize the music.
I can rightfully say that I have a much easier time memorizing Liszt Sonata than Mozart Sonata and to an extent some of the really easy stuff. Why? Mozart Sonata is easier by leaps and bounds, yet somehow I just don't have a purpose to play it and I'm not as into it as I am with Liszt Sonata.