Mastering the sustain pedal.. ? Advice wanted!

[jeronkey]

I'm busy getting back into my piano practising schedule, and one of the things I would love to learn correctly is the sustain pedal. Exactly when, how long, etc, do you use it?

At current, I'm trying to apply it to a hymn, and I'm pretty much trying to keep the sustain effect going throughout the song. (I'm gonna refer to lifting the pedal quickly for a moment as "resetting" the sustain.. I have no idea what the correct terminology is!)

This is a quick scan I made of the song, and I've added little red dots roughly around where I'm resetting..



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Am I going about this the correct way? or would you advise something different?

Any and every bit of advice will be greatly appreciated.. if there are any online guides or materials you can think of that are worth reading or watching, please feel free to give a link.

Thanks!
Jeronkey

[quantum]

One of the most important tools you can use to evaluate pedaling is your ear.  What we are listing for is a balance between clear harmony and sonic richness.  Generally we can change pedal when there is a harmonic change.  

In the example you provided, there is nothing wrong with your placement of the red dots - they work with the harmony.  However, this is a very specific type of piece - a hymn.  When playing hymns along with vocalists or a congregation it is necessary to imitate the breath with one's playing, especially since the singers will be following the lead of the pianist.  In such case one probably would not what to have continuous sustain throughout an entire hymn.  One has to strike a balance between giving a sense of breath, yet not let the music sound too choppy with overly angular applications of the pedal.  

[nyiregyhazi]

In the example you provided, there is nothing wrong with your placement of the red dots - they work with the harmony.  However, this is a very specific type of piece - a hymn.  When playing hymns along with vocalists or a congregation it is necessary to imitate the breath with one's playing, especially since the singers will be following the lead of the pianist.  In such case one probably would not what to have continuous sustain throughout an entire verse, yet alone an entire hymn.  One has to strike a balance between giving a sense of breath, yet not let the music sound too choppy with overly angular applications of the pedal. 

What do you mean? I'm trying to picture how the pedal might have any obvious relation to breathing but I can't see anything immediately relevant. There might be call for a split second of complete silence after the word blessing, but this is hardly a matter of grave concern. Just because a singer is breathing, it does not mean that harmony must necessarily be cleared too. You don't necessarily need a moment of complete silence with every breath. I'd be far more concerned by a single pedal through the third beat of the last but one bar. There are two harmonies, so the pedal really ought to cleared. You can get away with it, if you're not used to rapid legato pedalling, but it's far from ideal to combine a tonic and dominant in a single pedal. Also, in this style of writing, I'd consider lifting and then redepressing the pedal on every single crotchet- even if the harmony is unchanged. Four-part harmony strongly implies a vocal feel and benefits from great clarity- even if there's no harmonic clash.

[jeronkey]

One of the most important tools you can use to evaluate pedaling is your ear.  What we are listing for is a balance between clear harmony and sonic richness.  Generally we can change pedal when there is a harmonic change.

Fair enough. I generally accept that I have done things a bit off when it starts grating on my ears a little, which is very easy to do if you hold the pedal a beat or two too long!

In such case one probably would not what to have continuous sustain throughout an entire hymn.  One has to strike a balance between giving a sense of breath, yet not let the music sound too choppy with overly angular applications of the pedal. 

Hmm.. I will note this. I've just been working on keeping the peddle going and timed well so far, and thus I haven't experimented on how it will go with the vocals just yet. What would be your advice on which parts to try bring in the peddle.. if at all, then?

I feel at a bit of a loss in some respects due to my inexperience and lack of knowledge in some areas, but I'm willing to try and experiment!

[quantum]

I'd be far more concerned by a single pedal through the third beat of the last but one bar.

Yes, one would be wise to pedal there.

What do you mean? I'm trying to picture how the pedal might have any obvious relation to breathing but I can't see anything immediately relevant.

I`m referring more to the microcosmic nuances involved in pedaling, not totally clearing the harmony.  Yes, those milliseconds do count, however you have to train your ear to be sensitive to them.  A lot of the defining characteristics created through pedaling happen with miniscule changes, not large sweeping motions.  

Often pianists are far too content to just slap their foot down on the pedal.  With voice, wind, and brass instruments breathing involves the stoppage of sound in order that the lungs be refueled with air (that is without going into extended techniques).  Pianists need to be sensitive to this, especially in vocal accompaniment - even more so when the pianist is put in a leadership role such as hymn singing with a congregation.  Playing that is articulate to the movement of the breath also entourages a congregation to sensitize themselves to these details.  

[nyiregyhazi]

I`m referring more to the microcosmic nuances involved in pedaling, not totally clearing the harmony.  Yes, those milliseconds do count, however you have to train your ear to be sensitive to them.  A lot of the defining characteristics created through pedaling happen with miniscule changes, not large sweeping motions.  

Often pianists are far too content to just slap their foot down on the pedal.  With voice, wind, and brass instruments breathing involves the stoppage of sound in order that the lungs be refueled with air (that is without going into extended techniques).  Pianists need to be sensitive to this, especially in vocal accompaniment - even more so when the pianist is put in a leadership role such as hymn singing with a congregation.  Playing that is articulate to the movement of the breath also entourages a congregation to sensitize themselves to these details.  

I'm really not following what you mean still, to be honest. In this kind of four part harmony, the trick is simply to use the pedal for legato and little else. Generally, the later it goes down the better. It's all about clarity and you very rarely want two notes from the same part to sound together- even if there's a single ongoing harmony.What "nuances" are there? It's not exactly Debussy. The only issue is to achieve both clarity and legato- which involves the most standard legato pedalling technique. It's just a matter of knowing when changes are required. What has the fact it's a vocal accompaniment got to do with it? Obviously this has relevance to timing, but I don't see any obvious bearing on pedalling. Perhaps I'm missing something, but I have no idea what issues you are actually referring to. Could you be more specific as to how this might be reflected in pedalling? When accompanying, it's very much been the exception rather than the rule that I might wish to clear the sound in synchronisation with breathing. Obviously you need to listen for breaths and follow with your timing. But how and why would they make you pedal differently?

[fleetfingers]

Below are a couple of changes I would make to improve the clarity.

I added one more change/resetting of the pedal. The circled eighth notes are chords for which I would suggest lifting the sustain pedal altogether and using finger pedalling instead; similar to the upbeat at the beginning. I agree that frequent changes - even with each crotchet - is best with hymns.

As far as breathing goes, generally a comma in the text indicates a place to breathe. So, you can add a slight break in the flow at those points. It sounds like you are playing for yourself - but if you play with a choir, then just do whatever the director says when it comes to breathing.

Btw...love this hymn.