Playing anything without mistakes - finishing pieces off

[farm boy]

I am frustrated.  I have been playing piano for a number of years but no matter how I try I can't seem to get pieces to a finished level - ie able to play them through confidently without any mistakes - I cannot do this - no matter how hard I try to finish pieces off - ie practicing hands separately, playing them slowly trying to increase speed gradually, etc, etc, etc I still can't seem to get to a stage of confidence with any piece.  I am practicing 3+ hours per day.  I am with a teacher who cant seem to pin point why- I am around grade 7 standard.  I am 60 years of age and picking the instrument up again.  Give up time perhaps?

[brogers70]

I had the same problem. My teacher suggesting practicing the almost finished piece at 1/2 or 1/3 tempo, forte throughout, exagerating all the movements used to play it at speed. I don't know why it works, but it helped me a lot. Before trying that, I'd get pieces up to a point that they sounded fine, except that at unpredictable points that varied from run through to reun through I'd stutter, or lose the beat or forget a note. Doing the ultra slow practice once every few days fixed that entirely.

Don't give up!

[nyiregyhazi]

I am frustrated.  I have been playing piano for a number of years but no matter how I try I can't seem to get pieces to a finished level - ie able to play them through confidently without any mistakes - I cannot do this - no matter how hard I try to finish pieces off - ie practicing hands separately, playing them slowly trying to increase speed gradually, etc, etc, etc I still can't seem to get to a stage of confidence with any piece.  I am practicing 3+ hours per day.  I am with a teacher who cant seem to pin point why- I am around grade 7 standard.  I am 60 years of age and picking the instrument up again.  Give up time perhaps?

It's all about technique. If you don't move in an efficient way, your balance may be shaky or stiff and your movements may be uncomfortable. Imagine if you had to play a piece with one finger. Think how difficult it would be to achieve any flow. Most people use inadequate legato- and hence fail to reap the full benefits of FEELING how one note connects seamlessly to the next. If you don't get it just right, you might as well be playing with only one finger- as it will feel just as hard.

Try my most recent blog post- for a background description of a quality of movement that provides an enormous level of sensory feedback. This barely scratches the surface of these specific issues, I'm afraid. However, it may trigger some improvement- if you can make better contact with the keybeds (while avoiding compression). Flimsy contact between keys is one of the most common problems. Feeling where you are coming FROM- not just where you are going to. If your teacher has nothing to offer, I'd try another. If sound practise attitudes are not working, it's the quality of movement you need to look to.

[kellyc]

Hi Farmboy. No , it is not give up time, but it is time to perhaps adjust your learning methods, based on your chronological age. Someone who is sixty does not learn the same as someone who is sixteen. If a young person has six things to learn and six months to do it in, they will learn all six things at the same time. However as we age, this ability to learn multiple things at the same time begins to diminish. Instead a far better technique is to take the first thing you are to learn and spend the entire first month learning only that one thing. Then in the second month learn the second thing and so on. At the end of the six month period all six things are also learned , but the way you get there is not the same. Try taking a much smaller section of a piece you are working on and perfecting it. The exact size I can't tell you, but perhaps no more than 7 or 8 measures. do it over and over and over. Then do it without thinking about it. Make it automatic. Kind of like saying the alphabet. Then add your next section and tie the two together and so on. 

Keep trying new things, new ideas, until you come up with a system of learning that is just right for yourself.

Kelly

[farm boy]

Thanks Kelly.  Interesting re age and learning one thing at a time.
I am currently learning :
New Czerny exercises from 299
Gradus Parnadum (Tausig) exercises 1 and 2
Cramer studies (1 at a time)
As well as:       Wedding Day at Troldhagen
                      Chopin etude 25/2
                      Chopin Mazurkas (easier ones)
                      Chopin Waltz (easy one)
AND   final performance finishing of  Debussy  Arabesque 1 and Sarabande (pour le Piano)

Too much?

[kellyc]

Hi again. one must different between working on various pieces and studies and mastering a piece for performance, be that for yourself, a few friends, a large audience, etc. What I was suggesting is not that you only work on one thing,  but rather only attempt one piece at a time to master for performance. Generally as a rule it seems as if most students can get there studies and pieces they are working on up to about 80 pct. It is the last 20 pct that is the real killer. Now these are only guidelines. There are no ironclad hard and fast rules that work for everyone.  The true secret to mastering pieces is to find the rules that work for you. General rules are a starting point, a good starting point, but they must be moulded to the individual student.

Kelly

[farm boy]

Hi kellyc   Thanks again
I am reading lots at the moment to help me sort out what works for me in this regard and trying various techniques.  In general I can play my pieces very well and in the end it seems as though there is no specific place or one issue that is stopping me each time- its just a surprising mistake in an unexpected place that surprises and frustrates ( and stops) me.  Maybe my concentration wanders or I am working too hard or something.  I dunno?

[nyiregyhazi]

Hi kellyc   Thanks again
I am reading lots at the moment to help me sort out what works for me in this regard and trying various techniques.  In general I can play my pieces very well and in the end it seems as though there is no specific place or one issue that is stopping me each time- its just a surprising mistake in an unexpected place that surprises and frustrates ( and stops) me.  Maybe my concentration wanders or I am working too hard or something.  I dunno?

Sounds very much like a technical issue- especially if the mistakes come in surprising places. There's a quality of movement where things become memorable extremely fast- sometimes even from just a tiny number of repetitions. However, most students' default style of slow practise involves a style of movement where even if every note is played accurately, there's a limit to how much "feel" you get for the movements. Either they play too cautiously and make extremely vague contact with the keys, or they press too forcibly. Neither gives good feedback, regardless of how accurate the notes might be and neither "flows" at higher speeds. The feelings must be extremely vivid, or they will not stick with any consistency.

I'm not arguing against organisational approaches. However, even the most dilligent approach cannot make up for holes in the basic movement. In the past, I tried all countless organisational approaches with little success. Since changing basic qualities of movement, they are far more useful. It's important to distinguish between the two issues and develop both aspects- but the style of movement is the most important thing of all. Unfortunately, the finest organisational methods in the world cannot make up for problems with the style of movement in general- which is why students can end up feeling they are too "untalented" to progress. Dilligence is not enough.

[jaggens]

Hi Farmboy,

some ideas:

1) Our brain instantly memorizes most things. But the problem is accessing the information.

2) Can you say that the piece is memorized and you can play it without mistakes when you are not performing?

3) If you can and it is memorized, the performing problem is about your attention point and concentrating on right things during the concert. You lose contact with the work you have done and then you can make mistakes.

4) How to achieve good contact with the memorized material while performing? First you have to have a very clear vision in your head. The clearer the vision is (you should be able to see it in your head, listen to it, feel the emotions, feel motions, know theory and so on without real piano).
The next step if playing the piano with using that imagination as a guide. While being in that imagination you are in very strong connection with your memory and all the things you have learned. Now, when you go to perform. Concentrate and go into the piece the same way. Do not start playing before you achieve a clear connection. It needs willpower and strong character. Then the bad nerve disappears, you feel confident, the attention is on right things.

The method is originally described by Walter Gieseking and also Chuan C. Chang as his mental play idea. I have synthesized them and added some details.

Best wishes,
Jaak

[dcstudio]

Jaak has great points there!!

usually the problem is in your head and not in your hands when you reach that point.  telling yourself you can do it, repeatedly, even when you don't believe it--really does help. 

I tell students to plan their thoughts during a performance.   Attach a thought to each section or phrase and think as you perform.  this should come naturally--nothing huge--just a string of images--a story you know--scenes from a movie--all these things work for me.

If you tend to use your "finger memory" a lot this is quite effective.

never give up, my friend---you are doing great!

[nyiregyhazi]

"3) If you can and it is memorized, the performing problem is about your attention point and concentrating on right things during the concert. You lose contact with the work you have done and then you can make mistakes."

That can be true. But to speak as if it's necessarily the whole picture (or even the biggest issue) just isn't accurate. There are Chopin Etudes that I've known inside out for years- in terms of what the notes are. I have also been able to play them accurately in slow speeds from memory for many years. Can I play them consistently at higher speeds? No. But that doesn't mean concentration is the issue. In fact, I play them more accurately now when scarcely concentrating at all than I did while conjuring up all the mental effort I could, a few years back (that's not a boast, btw- I'm not saying I play them with flawless accuracy now. I'm pointing out how much worse it was before). The only difference has been in how I move.

To suggest that it's purely a concentration issue risks perpetuating the idea that anyone who isn't getting it simply isn't trying hard enough or that they just don't have the talent to do better. I can honestly say that these approaches did nothing for me until I learned a better style of movement. They simply made me feel too untalented to do any better. While these techniques aid the progression of a technique founded on impeccable fundamentals, they do not do anything to put sound fundamentals in place to start with. As I say, I'm not arguing against the worth of mental practise in any sense at all. But there's so much more to technique than organisation and intent alone. It's like the modern idea that business is all about positive thinking. It just doesn't work that way. These kind of issues help you rise to the top of your current potential- but they cannot provide you with the nuts of bolts of anything that you do not have.  That is the only thing that can sustain long-term progress.

I've seen many students who can play things accurately enough in slow speeds, yet who never manage to turn that into flowing performance. For some people, the only way to acquire confidence is to learn to move in a way that necessarily instills it. If the movements are too vague or too forceful, nothing is memorable and neither is it easy to repeat at the drop of a hat. The problem is often totally outside of concentration. It's that the style of movement is too erratic and inconsistent to be repeated easily- and not necessarily even when full concentration is maintained. I'd actually go as far as to say that many students who I see working this way are those who concentrate the HARDEST! But they are too busy making adjustment after adjustment with virtually every note they play- rather than learning to organise the quality of movement better. It leaves them with no chance of consistency once they have two hands to worry about at the same time.

As I say, I'm not arguing against the value of looking at these issues. But to assume that this is the sole cause is deeply problematic. Even at college level, you see very few techniques that are without holes. I would be very surprised if the underlying issues are not technical. Very few amateur pianists have the right foundation- which is why a lot of perfectly talented people get frustrated when the mind-over-matter approach simply doesn't work for them.

[dcstudio]

sounds like a lot of people have this issue...wouldn't you agree?  do what works for you...what else can you do really...

[nyiregyhazi]

sounds like a lot of people have this issue...wouldn't you agree?  do what works for you...what else can you do really...

Which issue? Technique? Well, obviously. It's not especially hard to visualise a basic scale. Anyone who really puts their mind to doing so is usually more than capable. But how many people can play them at lightening speed and without perception of effort? Visualisation is but one part of the puzzle.

If we were doing what worked for us, we'd all be playing fantastically well. Positive as it might sound, it often masks a totally defeatist attitude. Sadly, it often translates more into something more like "keep doing what is holding you back from transcending your current level". Unless we assume ourselves to be too untalented to do better than we are at present, obviously we have yet to find works for us and must keep searching (unless truly happy in our present abilities). If the poster were happy with what he is doing currently, he wouldn't have posted. It's typically at this kind of level that people find themselves at a plateau- where frustration ensues. It's not incapability, but reliance on movements that limit further potential for growth.

Incidentally, even visualisation is massively dependent on the feedback of moving keys confidently and with clear perception. How many pianists can actually learn a whole piece away from the piano and then perform it by memory? Much of what goes into advanced visualisation is acquired by the vivid sensations that come from good quality of movement at the instrument. It's one of the biggest contributors towards a situation where visualisation alone can become a major part of technique.

[farm boy]

Hi - Jim back here.  Gees we have a great discussion going here.  I truly thanks you all for your help - lot of very helpful points being put forth.
Well you all sound pretty correct to be honest. 
A few comments - YES I do believe I have reached a plateau and I am trying to break through it.  That is definitely why I posted this. 
I do have Chaun Chang's book and I will definitely recap on MP and movement.  I also have a teacher by the way and he spends most of his time telling me to get rid of tension, relax and dont get totally depressed about making mistakes - "get over it".  Unlike him though I am pretty anal and very concerned about playing correctly and "all the notes".  Nevertheless I believe he is improving my technique.
It is indeed very interesting about the mental side, because (we have all experienced this), I have seen myself occasionally play something (or a section) perfectly and with a total feeling of relaxation and oneness (almost unconciously) and then when I suddenly become aware of this and start thinking again, it all goes wrong. 
I do therefore agree with the mental side - I am however a little unsure how to go about creating specific thoughts for each section of a piece (sounds like trying to take your mind of concentrating ??)
Basic techniqe or basic technical skills - I dont know if I have them?  I can play 4 octaves of scales (hands together) at a maxumum speed of 120mm.   I dont know how to get faster.  My rh is much better than my lh and where I struggle are arpeggiated lh runs (playing fast).   

[dcstudio]

Which issue? Technique? Well, obviously. It's not especially hard to visualise a basic scale.

Forgive me, whatever issues prevent people from "finishing off a piece" -- many on this string claim to either have these issues or know how to solve them.  It is a very common complaint among students.  Even among the pros--nobody plays it perfectly every single time.  Your mistakes are just painfully more obvious then theirs. 

[nyiregyhazi]

Forgive me, whatever issues prevent people from "finishing off a piece" -- many on this string claim to either have these issues or know how to solve them.  It is a very common complaint among students.  Even among the pros--nobody plays it perfectly every single time.  Your mistakes are just painfully more obvious then theirs. 

But what are you suggesting? We just give up and settle for that being okay? And that anyone who wants to do better should just learn to drop their standards and start to ignore major slips? Pros don't just make less obvious mistakes. They also make less mistakes.

[nyiregyhazi]

I do therefore agree with the mental side - I am however a little unsure how to go about creating specific thoughts for each section of a piece (sounds like trying to take your mind of concentrating ??)
  

To be honest that sounds like a bad idea. If a person has to try not to concentrate and does better that way, they really don't know the piece well enough. When you know a piece well, nothing should be able to surprise you- including thinking about what you are doing. Approaches that depend on trying to distract yourself from thoughts about what you are doing are a recipe for major inconsistency. Accidentally start thinking and there's potential for disaster. Also, if muscle memory goes while you're succeeding in not thinking, there's disaster. The goal is not to scrutinise every individual note in the long run, but if slipping into conscious thought can throw you, you need to have a more conscious background of familiarity. It's the only way to avoid surprises. Nobody can realistically function on a method that depends on having to will yourself not to think about what you are doing.

Personally I think you're absolutely right to be "anal" about mistakes. The problem is if you end up moving in a cautious way as a result. There's a style of confidence in individual finger actions that can sometimes be compromised by wanting to be careful. But wanting to be careful is the good part. The trick is to "carefully" apply well thought out and confident movements- not to stop caring about accuracy.

[dcstudio]

But what are you suggesting? We just give up and settle for that being okay? And that anyone who wants to do better should just learn to drop their standards and start to ignore major slips? Pros don't just make less obvious mistakes. They also make less mistakes.

my point is--and on this one we seem to be in complete agreement--they still make mistakes. I doubt they lose sleep for a missed note on a performance. Or maybe they do, and that is why they all seem a little nuts.

[nyiregyhazi]

my point is--and on this one we seem to be in complete agreement--they still make mistakes. I doubt they lose sleep for a missed note on a performance. Or maybe they do, and that is why they all seem a little nuts.

Michelangeli certainly did and I've heard the same of Argerich. Regardless, I don't see what the relevance is of comparing occasional heat of the moment slips with sloppy practising. The number of errors is a big deal. Professionals don't aquire their technique by thinking that errors during practise of no consequence- or they'd be making far more errors than they do. You have to differentiate between practising and performing. The problem is when pianists do not know how to take maintain accuracy while using confident movement. Instead they prod gingerly or stiffly. But not caring about mistakes imposes nothing but limitations- if that attitude is carried into practising. To stop caring about accuracy only creates extra problems. It barely even scratches the surface of the technical problems that cause an association between striving for accuracy and moving badly. When technique is sound, wishing to be accurate should never cause problems. If it does, there are major technique issues to resolve and playing less accurately will not remedy those.

[farm boy]

In reading everyone's thoughts I want to clarify something.  Earlier in my life I performed frequently in public on another instrument which I grew up with.  I was ale to go on stage knowing I could get through any piece without breaking down.  My main concern was getting thru any tricky parts without major mistakes, but there was never any thought of me stopping (either to go back and repeat a bar or completely breaking down).  I have been playing piano for several years and not performing much (only to family and friends).  The major gist of this post is that I dont have that inner confidence with piano when I am performing (to anyone - even myself) that I can get thru any piece without stopping.  I can put up with general mistakes which ought to be able to be fixed but it seems that when I start playing in front of others I think hard about "am i gonna get thru this?" or "I seem to be doing ok, thats about 10 bars without a mistake".  This deep analytical thinking that starts is destructive and seems to always foul me up - meaning I will make a major error which will either stop me completely or cause me to have to jump back a bar, etc.  So is that technique, psychological, not practicing enough.     Finally it is an interesting point about "when are you playing and when are you practicing".

[kellyc]

Hi Farmboy. you know what this sounds like to me. Its a little like a firewire artist momentarily losing there balance. Everyone loses there balance from time to time. Its being able to recover that is the trick. So here is something my teacher did with me.  She made me stop in the middle of pieces, then start up again right where I left off. Eventually i learned to pick up a piece from anywhere. Try and see if the pieces you are struggling with can be helped if you learn to start up forms lots of different spots rather than the beginning. Or start the piece in the middle , finish it and then play the beginning. Don't put yourself in the position of having this long string of music to play that if you miss something you are lost. Get lots of starting points so that you only have to learn shorter passages before you reach another learned starting point.  Good luck.

Kelly

[nyiregyhazi]

In reading everyone's thoughts I want to clarify something.  Earlier in my life I performed frequently in public on another instrument which I grew up with.  I was ale to go on stage knowing I could get through any piece without breaking down.  My main concern was getting thru any tricky parts without major mistakes, but there was never any thought of me stopping (either to go back and repeat a bar or completely breaking down).  I have been playing piano for several years and not performing much (only to family and friends).  The major gist of this post is that I dont have that inner confidence with piano when I am performing (to anyone - even myself) that I can get thru any piece without stopping.  I can put up with general mistakes which ought to be able to be fixed but it seems that when I start playing in front of others I think hard about "am i gonna get thru this?" or "I seem to be doing ok, thats about 10 bars without a mistake".  This deep analytical thinking that starts is destructive and seems to always foul me up - meaning I will make a major error which will either stop me completely or cause me to have to jump back a bar, etc.  So is that technique, psychological, not practicing enough.     Finally it is an interesting point about "when are you playing and when are you practicing".

Sounds like a combination of technique and psychology. That it's the same when playing only for yourself is certainly very revealing. When in performance mode, you shouldn't be thinking this way. You should just be thinking about what you are doing and involved in the music-making. But if 10 bars without a mistake is enough to prompt notable thoughts, it does strike me that the quality of practise must be a huge issue. If the practise is going well, 10 bars without a mistake is just what you should be doing as matter of routine- not an event that should even register in your mind as anything out of the ordinary. It sounds to me like it's more that your psychology is the result of holes in preparation- not simply irrational thoughts. Some people might speak of negative thought patterns that need to be turned positive. However, better practice and the expectation of playing large stretches without problems (due to knowledge that you can routinely do so) is by far the easiest route to that. Removing negative thoughts can't change your groundwork. You have to be in the habit of not only playing accurately, but doing so with an easy and consistent quality of movement.

I think visualisation is likely a big issue- but you need to be routinely moving well to develop this. It's as much about relating your perception of movements to the image of playing, as the opposite. You need the right quality of movement for such perceptions to be vivid enough for advanced visualisation to develop. If a beginner spent three weeks visualising playing a piece before ever playing it, it wouldn't do much good. They simply could not imagine the full picture of doing it. For it work to the full, you have to be familiar with the sensations you're visualising. This is where everything comes back to technique. Visualisation is as dependent on technique as technique is on visualisation. If either is lacking, it severely limits the other.

[nyiregyhazi]

Hi Farmboy. you know what this sounds like to me. Its a little like a firewire artist momentarily losing there balance. Everyone loses there balance from time to time. Its being able to recover that is the trick. So here is something my teacher did with me.  She made me stop in the middle of pieces, then start up again right where I left off. Eventually i learned to pick up a piece from anywhere. Try and see if the pieces you are struggling with can be helped if you learn to start up forms lots of different spots rather than the beginning. Or start the piece in the middle , finish it and then play the beginning. Don't put yourself in the position of having this long string of music to play that if you miss something you are lost.

I'd say it's more like falling off the rope, based on the description. This approach is like walking through barbed wire every day and trying to cover up the injuries with plasters. Why not just concentrate on finding an easy route that you can casually stroll down- without getting into trouble?

While everyone needs to be able to get out of an emergency, if you find yourself in a whole lot of emergencies you need to ask what is causing them and how to deal with the roots- not how to scrape your way out of them. If you think this way, you simply set up a self-perpetuating cycle of screwing up but just about hanging in there. It's becomes a huge mental ordeal to get through pieces and they never become polished for all the trouble. I played the Rachmaninoff 2nd with orchestra a couple of times using this scraping through approach, and I cannot overstate what an ordeal it was. The performance was largely rather accurate (except for fine details) but I was a complete wreck from the sheer concentration required to keep it going. Unless this is reserved for true emergencies (ie. no more than one or two per piece, at an absolute maximum), it's exactly what causes a high frequency of emergencies to have to get out of. Foundations have to be set first.

[farm boy]

nyir.  Quality of practice an issue - interesting.  I am trying to finish off Chopin Etude 25/2 right now.  I can pretty well play it but to get it totally secure at moderate tempo I have isolated trouble spots and practiced them, I have played it through slower and generally it is ok.  When I try it faster than moderate it still feels risky and has mistakes.  Slower is fine though but I need to get it up t the proper speed.  I can play the trouble spots mistake free slower.  I just don't know how to finish the thing off up to the proper speed - ie so I have full confidence that it is easy.  I believe I am very relaxed when playing this piece - so I dont believe tension is an issue.  Not sure what to do to get the thing secure.   Play it 100 times a day?

[farm boy]

kellyc
With the Chopin (25/2) as an example, I feel I can pick it up from a number of spots but maybe not from every single beat in any bar - maybe thats what I need to do?
I guess I am just unsure whether its basic skills (technique) that is stopping me from getting to this full confidence level on this piece (and most of my others).  My teacher says I have it and its not too hard for me, however I have never once played it right throught to him without stopping.  Its intersting you mention Rach 2 because I have worked on the first main theme (piano solo - about page 3) on this and to be honest I can play this part thru in front of anyone confidently and there we are talking of a reasonable technical level (strange that one)

[nyiregyhazi]

nyir.  Quality of practice an issue - interesting.  I am trying to finish off Chopin Etude 25/2 right now.  I can pretty well play it but to get it totally secure at moderate tempo I have isolated trouble spots and practiced them, I have played it through slower and generally it is ok.  When I try it faster than moderate it still feels risky and has mistakes.  Slower is fine though but I need to get it up t the proper speed.  I can play the trouble spots mistake free slower.  I just don't know how to finish the thing off up to the proper speed - ie so I have full confidence that it is easy.  I believe I am very relaxed when playing this piece - so I dont believe tension is an issue.  Not sure what to do to get the thing secure.   Play it 100 times a day?

Well,  you might be too relaxed. Slow practise often involves a style of movement that is too relaxed and floppy to be possible at speed- and hence any slack is ironically what goes on to cause issues of stiffness in the forearm. When the fingers connect well (not with a  "tense" hand, but "relaxed" is not a word I'd ever use for the hand movements either) you can transfer the same quality to going faster. Most of my students slip into very superficial contact when they go slow. I constantly have to remind them to engage the fingers properly and keep them engaged until the next note is sounded. Otherwise they naturally want to move so vaguely as to make no meaningful connection to the instrument. It becomes meaningless disconnected prods that provide scarcely any feedback at all. However, others dig in hard and uncomfortably with the arm, creating different problems altogether. The quality of movement required to make slow practise useful is extremely specific. Quite honestly, I feel as if I've only just begun to understand this quality of movement myself. Interestingly, my ability to visualise pieces that I play has improved exponentially in tandem with technical changes.

[dcstudio]

The major gist of this post is that I dont have that inner confidence with piano when I am performing (to anyone - even myself) that I can get thru any piece without stopping.  I can put up with general mistakes which ought to be able to be fixed but it seems that when I start playing in front of others I think hard about "am i gonna get thru this?" or "I seem to be doing ok, thats about 10 bars without a mistake".  This deep analytical thinking that starts is destructive and seems to always foul me up - meaning I will make a major error which will either stop me completely or cause me to have to jump back a bar, etc.  So is that technique, psychological, not practicing enough.     Finally it is an interesting point about "when are you playing and when are you practicing".

as you've said--not having inner confidence is the issue.  Also allowing your thoughts to wander about while playing can be self-defeating.  I also have a brain that allows me to think and play simultaneously, so--I try to plan a thought pattern around my pieces to prevent "erratic analysis" during my performances.    try practicing your "thinking" as well-- It is in no way a fool proof method, but it helps me.

[keypeg]

.... but it seems that when I start playing in front of others I think hard about "am i gonna get thru this?" or "I seem to be doing ok, thats about 10 bars without a mistake".  This deep analytical thinking that starts is destructive and seems to always foul me up - meaning I will make a major error which will either stop me completely or cause me to have to jump back a bar, etc.  ...

You've explained that this is happening because you are less secure on this instrument than the other ones you play.  But that doesn't help solve it.  Trying not to do something doesn't work well.  But trying to do something else does.  One solution is to think about what you are doing: think about the notes you are playing right at that moment.  When your mind starts to wander, pull it back to what you are playing.  Since you can't think two things at once, you'll be right back where you need to be.

[farm boy]

Thanks keypeg.   Yeah thoughts when you are playing are interesting.  I take your point about concentration.  There are times however when I am playing that I decide to totally relax and look out the window just trying to go "with the flow" of the music - ie not thinking too much about what notes to play - and it very often all goes very well until I pull my thoughts back onto what I am playing and what notes to play, and it can at times then go wrong.  Pretty complex stuff.

[swansonjw]

Here's one thing to try:  learn the piece as well a you can, then put it away for 3 months.  Then take it out again and start practicing it very slowly with a metronone.  If you make a mistake, practice that phrase 10 times, very slowly, with a metronome.  Begin memorizing it.  I have three ways I memorize.  1.  I analyse the chord progressions, structure etc.  2.  I memorize the melody by singing it.  3.  I memorize visually where I must look at the keys.  This last type is essential for me.  I cannot play a piece through from memory unless I make the transition from reading the score to looking all the time at the keys.  You can also analyse why you are making mistakes.  Are you misreading the notes?  Are you reading the notes correctly but your hand is not trained to perform that sequence of notes?  Are you getting a passage confused with another similar passage in the peice?  Are you using a different fingering each time you play a passage?  The greatest aid to not making mistakes for me is to use an absolutely consistent fingering.  If you choose a fingering and later find out it doesn't work, find another, learn it thoroughly, but stick to it.  I've blabbered enough.

[farm boy]

Thanks for that advice swanson.  The fingering is certainly interesting.  In one piece I am trying to finish (Chopin Etude 25/2) it goes quite fast and I am unsure whether I am using the exact same fingering every time.  I will certainly take note.  3 months - ok.

[starstruck5]

I read this thread with interest.  When we read through a piece and begin learning it - unless of course we play it by ear - which I can't - we mostly don't look down at our hands  - however when we memorise something - I find it helps to reinforce all the touch impulses with visual ones.  I have found this helps reduce mistakes in my case anyway!  I don't consider to have really learned a piece until I can play it without the score. Not only that, I go back and check a recording with the score, to make sure I haven't gotten sloppy with dynamics and so on.

I also find it helps to understand the harmony and melodic structure and so forth. If you understand a melodic pattern, in terrms of rhythm, intervals, harmonic tension etc - this insight will draw you more deeply into the music and help you play notes a certain way for a reason.

[mcrosbie]

Hi Farmboy,

some ideas:

1) Our brain instantly memorizes most things. But the problem is accessing the information.

2) Can you say that the piece is memorized and you can play it without mistakes when you are not performing?

3) If you can and it is memorized, the performing problem is about your attention point and concentrating on right things during the concert. You lose contact with the work you have done and then you can make mistakes.

4) How to achieve good contact with the memorized material while performing? First you have to have a very clear vision in your head. The clearer the vision is (you should be able to see it in your head, listen to it, feel the emotions, feel motions, know theory and so on without real piano).
The next step if playing the piano with using that imagination as a guide. While being in that imagination you are in very strong connection with your memory and all the things you have learned. Now, when you go to perform. Concentrate and go into the piece the same way. Do not start playing before you achieve a clear connection. It needs willpower and strong character. Then the bad nerve disappears, you feel confident, the attention is on right things.

The method is originally described by Walter Gieseking and also Chuan C. Chang as his mental play idea. I have synthesized them and added some details.

Best wishes,
Jaak

I think this is what Glenn Gould said about performing as well.  Also, being 60 does make is a bit more difficult, especially if you have not played for years.  I am also 60 years old and recently resumed lessons.  I did find it a bit more difficult to progress, but it's amazing what does come back to you once you get back into practicing.  I had to stop my lessons due to shortage of money, but I will never totally give up playing.  I suppose it depends on what your personal goal is for playing.  You asked "is it time to give up"?  Why would you give up?  No one else can decide for you that you should give up.  If you are happy playing the piano, do not give up!

[m1469]

I really think it has to do with having an ever-developing -yet fundamental- organized concept of the piano, aurally and physically, as well as how our body and motions relate to these things (step by step).  The deeper our understanding, the more it reaches and meets with our deeper musical desires and gives that a motorization to be expressed accurately.

[countrymath]

I really think it has to do with having an ever-developing -yet fundamental- organized concept of the piano, aurally and physically, as well as how our body and motions relate to these things (step by step).  The deeper our understanding, the more it reaches and meets with our deeper musical desires and gives that a motorization to be expressed accurately.

Amen

[farm boy]

Starstruck 5 said - "I also find it helps to understand the harmony and melodic structure and so forth. If you understand a melodic pattern, in terrms of rhythm, intervals, harmonic tension etc - this insight will draw you more deeply into the music and help you play notes a certain way for a reason"
I said earlier that occasionally I have found that just playing and not totally concentrating on just playing the right notes. but instead just thinking "what the hell" and looking out the window, I often play VERY well, mistake free.  When I become conscious all of a sudden about what I am playing, where I am up to, how I am going, etc - it suddenly all goes wrong.  I think this happens because when you just play, you are as Starstruck 5 says drawn "more deeply into the music" where you are focussed on playing the notes and the phrase a certain way not just the right notes.  Good one Startstruck - Thankyou

[farm boy]

Mcrosbie - thanks for your encouragement.  I must admit I constantly (daily) go thru this thing about how slowly you progress at 60 years.   I am around a grade 7 standard and I have currently set a goal to see if my progression is notable over a short period.  In mid September I made a commitment to practice 3 to 4 hours every day until Christmas.  I am probably averaging 3 hrs daily.  At times it seems my progress is non existant and then other times I fell I am progressing.  My goal is to be able to seriously tackle and play Chopin, Debussy and Rachmaninoff Etudes (or similar), ie Advanced standard stuff.  I dont know if being 60 means this progression is nigh impossible, but I will see how I have progressed by Christmas.  Meanwhile I have found the feedback from all of you on this post to be most helpful and encouraging.

[nyiregyhazi]

When I become conscious all of a sudden about what I am playing, where I am up to, how I am going, etc - it suddenly all goes wrong.  I think this happens because when you just play, you are as Starstruck 5 says drawn "more deeply into the music" where you are focussed on playing the notes and the phrase a certain way not just the right notes.

To be honest, I'm not convinced that's the case. I think the other poster was talking about finding deeper conscious understanding of the music's construction- not turning off and just trying to merely "feel" the sounds that come out. I think the problem you describe simply points towards excessive reliance on habit and shows that these habits break down far too easily. I'd be extremely wary of trying to use what you describe there as a potential solution.

Feeling the sound and shapes should in no way be an alternative to thinking about what notes you're actually playing. When practising they should almost always be part and parcel of the same thing- not alternative mindsets to choose between. I've often seen students who find it far easier to play things quickly without much thought than to play them slowly and thoughtfully. The problem is that unless they have 100% accuracy when playing without thought, the scope for progress is virtually zero- unless they are prepared to slow down and start thinking about what they are actually doing. It's not that they're more involved with the music this way, but rather that they are too reliant on physical memory and have no transferable understanding that permits them to do different things.

 I'd be extremely careful with this approach, as I think it's far more likely to impose limitation upon your progress than to free you up. The only long-term solution is to learn to turn your thoughtful playing into consistently comfortable and accurate playing. The approaches have to be blended into a single whole.

[farm boy]

Take your points.  I think however there is an argument which says - if you have done the practice and you know you can play the piece(s), then at the performance stage you need to trust yourself that you have done the work and can play the piece, so one should therefore be focussing on stuff like expression, touch, tone interpretation, feeling, etc NOT "will I make mistakes". 
Currently whilst practicing I first and foremost try to play the correct notes whilst also trying to play the dynamics, tempi, etc the way the piece should be played on completion.  I am triyng very hard right now with new pieces to avoid at any stage hitting ANY wrong note.
I guess I am somewhat unsure though as to how "professionals" (concert pianists perhaps?) prepare themselves just prior to playing a piece as a performance, ie when you are seated and about to commence playing.  My mind tends to be NOT focussed at all, simply hoping I can get thru the piece(s) I am about to start.  I try to relax physically (bodily) and focus on that as much as possible.  But I don't ever seem to reach a single point where I can say "now I am ready to start", I just tend to just play. 

[nyiregyhazi]

Take your points.  I think however there is an argument which says - if you have done the practice and you know you can play the piece(s), then at the performance stage you need to trust yourself that you have done the work and can play the piece, so one should therefore be focussing on stuff like expression, touch, tone interpretation, feeling, etc NOT "will I make mistakes".

Absolutely, that shouldn't be an issue. However, you're speaking about it as if thinking about what notes you're playing is synonomous with such thoughts? It really shouldn't be. There's a big difference between focus on what you need to be doing and wondering whether you'll go wrong. The latter is generally caused by inadequate familiarity with what goes on in the former- meaning that the fingers move in a way that is seemingly separate from the brain altogether. Thinking about what you are doing should never cause problems. If it does, it shows that the learning has not yet been thorough enough. You're almost certainly attempting this stage too soon. When performers put these things into the background it's because they know them so well that they can afford to- not because thinking about it might expose holes that would throw them. They have full choice over whether to be conscious or to just play. Also, the just feeling the music is only for performance mode. 90% of practise involves consciously noticing what is going on, and reinforcing the reflexes that might come into play within performance. The classic mistake is to get something right a few times and then try to never think about it again. To keep things working, you have to keep going back to thinking about them.


 
My mind tends to be NOT focussed at all, simply hoping I can get thru the piece(s) I am about to start.  I try to relax physically (bodily) and focus on that as much as possible.  But I don't ever seem to reach a single point where I can say "now I am ready to start", I just tend to just play.

Some people might go down the psychology road here, but if you're worried about getting through at all, I have to say that it strikes me that your practise is not preparing you for going into full performance mode in a useful way. There are doubtless issues that are either technical or regarding how you think about the music that need to be developed further first- so you can go in with confidence in what you are doing. Focussing on the musical issues may well help, but you have to be sure this involves noticing harmonies and intervals etc- not turning off to such issues and hoping your fingers will work on their own.Visualising the notes you are to play is a part of musical thinking as much as thoughts regarding phrasing and shaping. If this is not currently happening, it really needs to be.

Why not film a short excerpt of something and upload it? To be honest, there's a limit to what can be said without seeing how you move.

[farm boy]

ok _ i will do that - what's the best way of going about that though? - (ie uploading a video of me)

[_achilles_]

ok _ i will do that - what's the best way of going about that though? - (ie uploading a video of me)

Film it with a camera/webcam, get the recorded file onto your computer, upload it to Youtube (will need a gmail account), and share the link here using the youtube button. If you need more details just say the word.


This thread is really interesting. I like the discussion and I feel like I've learned a lot that I'll be able to apply to my learning too. Thanks to everyone for the great input! I've definitely noticed that there are times when the music just flows beautifully and I'm only focusing on making it melodically perfect (how I see perfect given the piece) as opposed to worrying about notes at all, I feel like once a song is at the level I usually stop making the majority of stumbles with notes and the things I find wrong are in the way a certain phrase sounded.

[farm boy]

Thanks  achilles - I actually thought that, and to be honest felt pretty stupid after forwarding that last post - pretty obvious how one would do it, but thanks anyway.

[farm boy]

Andrew
Margaret Wacyk's blog site
https://margaretwacyk.blogspot.com/
is quite amazing - I have become a follower as well as ordering her book "Ultimate Piano Playing".  Thanks for recommendation.

[nyiregyhazi]

Andrew
Margaret Wacyk's blog site
https://margaretwacyk.blogspot.com/
is quite amazing - I have become a follower as well as ordering her book "Ultimate Piano Playing".  Thanks for recommendation.

I've picked up a copy myself. I think there are many positive things in here book- but I would also stress that there is a lot of pseudo-science and many irrational contradictions. She speaks of harnessing "energy" from the upper arm and not the fingers. However, she also speaks of how the arm should be weightless, rather than pressing through the fingers. Quite how the arm can provide energy without its mass getting involved and weighing against the hand is beyond me. It's totally in contradiction. It seems pretty clear that what she says about the upper arm providing the energy ought to be taken solely in a metaphorical sense. It's a kind of hippy "energy"- rather than literal energy.

There are definitely some good things in her approach- but I'd be very careful not to take the idea of the arm replacing the fingers literally. There are many things that, if taken at face value, could potentially be a big hindrance. I'm working on a post that shows that for fingers to merely "support" energy transfer from the arm actually requires vastly more exertion and stress than when the finger just learns to move well (without the hindrance of needless arm pressure). There are a great many highly subjective illusions in what she describes that are presented as if objective reality, so I would be a little careful. Contrary to her explanation, literally trying to source energy from the arm in fast finger work is exactly what causes keybedding and strain! I was held back for many years by ideas along much the same lines- that left my playing very sluggish and effortful. It's the type of stuff that can trigger missing sensations for many, but taking the explanations at face-value can be disastrous.

[Derek]

Here's some thoughts from a fellow amateur. I dunno what caused it but somewhere in the last month or two I reached a very clear understanding of where I am at with each piano skill I've developed.

I've reached a point where I think, learning to play a piece so well that you *never* make mistakes may not be possible. However, I think it is certainly possible to *continue learning* a piece so that you gain a deeper and more fine grained "feeling" for executing each part of a piece, so that making mistakes becomes less and less likely over time. Believing it is possible is part of it, another part is understanding that execution of piano music is a much deeper process than the way an old player piano works for example. There are millions upon millions of neurons that all fire at once when executing a single note, so there's plenty of noise in there that can cause us to foul up. The more effort we devote to understanding those internal "feelings" that leads to correct execution the fewer mistakes we make.

So, I don't really expect to ever truly "finish" a piece, that's silly. In fact, I hope the pieces I learn will constantly change. I actually felt an impulse to slightly change even the rhythm in the second repeat of a Beethoven sonata recently...probably would cause an uproar today, but it felt and sounded good to me and I suppose probably to people around the time when it was composed. Who knows. We're amateurs, we can do whatever the f we want. 

[dcstudio]

Derek I completely agree...I am not an amateur but I never stop "learning" my pieces either.  You have a very "clear" understanding indeed...

[farm boy]

Ok, ok.  I agree that "FINISHING" a piece off is the wrong terminology.  I guess for me a piece is "getting there" when I have that confidence you talk about that I can say to that piece and the piano......"I know I can play you well and you wont be able to foul me up" and "whether I get every passage sounding the way I want it I am unsure but I know I can play you note wise and we'll just see what happens today"

That's what I call "finished".

[nyiregyhazi]

Here's some thoughts from a fellow amateur. I dunno what caused it but somewhere in the last month or two I reached a very clear understanding of where I am at with each piano skill I've developed.

I've reached a point where I think, learning to play a piece so well that you *never* make mistakes may not be possible.

My first instinct was to disagree, but I think it depends what you mean as the alternative to that. Obviously, there's nobody who never makes mistakes. But the question is how many they make? What you describe may be a very sound attitude or it may be a limiting and defeatist one. It all depends on the extent. However, I do think everyone- be they amateur or professional should be aspiring to an ideal of consistent accuracy where slips are very rare. In my experience, too many fall into the trap of thinking that mistakes will just go away if you repeat the piece enough times. However, progress can be slow or even non-existent. It's important to be clear that as a pianist that it's your job to fix mistakes and that they won't just start disappearing.

As long as that is clear, there's no point in beating yourself up about not being a piano playing machine. However, I do feel that many amateur pianists are too forgiving in a way that becomes self-limiting. The easiest time to solve problems is always immediately.

I've been reading "the inner game" recently. I agree with the idea that a person should not beat themselves up about mistakes while performing. However, I fear the book is potentially damaging to some, by being too simplistic. You have to care enough to fix things when practising. The key is firstly to know how to fix it properly and secondly to turn the process of fixing it into a positive experience- so it is not something to be depressed by. I think different modes of thought and approach need to be put in place. Personally, I think they go way too far and risk promoting sloppiness- by not being clear on how important it is to adapt the mindset to the situation.

[m1469]

There can also be a funny psychological bump in the road where a person has to really want to clean something up, as well as deciding to identify with being the kind of person who plays this way vs. that way.  Maybe for some individuals it's a non-issue, but despite my own love of music and the piano, I find myself hitting bigger life-questions when I really consider taking my playing to another level.  

(As a side note, while there may be pertinent questions in my life, I can see I need to keep going despite whether or not the questions are answered before or after the fact, or maybe not at all  :- - but it's helpful to be aware of what is going on).