"Quantity of sound equates to Quality of sound"

[werq34ac]

Discuss?


And before anyone says something stupid and dismisses the idea completely, the man (Georgy Sebok) was talking about voicing.

It's shocking what voicing can do to improve one's playing

[nyiregyhazi]

Discuss?


And before anyone says something stupid and dismisses the idea completely, the man (Georgy Sebok) was talking about voicing.

It's shocking what voicing can do to improve one's playing

It depends which way around he meant it. I respect Sebok, so I presume he meant it the insightful way- ie. that the impression of quantity is based on the quality of sound. Taken at face value, it could easily be taken to mean that the louder you play the better the quality, although I really hope not!

[xerula]

I have no idea what this really means, but it's interesting to speculate on such a provocative statement. I adore Sebok, but I think he was more of a mystic and visionary than someone who dispensed concrete technical advice to students. Many of the pianists who really benefitted from him already had concert careers.

The word 'quantity' in relation to sound I cannot help but parse scientifically. It could be referring to any of the measurements of wavelength, amplitude and waveform that characterize the air vibrations we hear as music, each part of which can be defined in terms of numerical quantities. Read this way, quantity does absolutely equal quality. I don't think that's what Sebok really meant, though - he was more of a psychologist than a physicist.

This does however relate to voicing. Voicing is of supreme importance. When it is said of a pianist that they have exquisite 'colors' or an immediately distinctive 'touch', I believe that this largely refers to their skill at voicing - in other words, at balancing the dynamics of simultaneous notes, over time. If this is done in a personal, logical way, with incredible precision and as a kind of organic outcome of how the present instant in the music relates to what comes before and after, then magical things start to happen. And music critics start writing in terms of 'flavors' and 'textures'. This is also why a good piano teacher can construct an entire lesson around two successive chords.

[fallen_star]

I took this immediately to mean the climax, the part where you are playing full chords with both hands, getting louder, the part where everyone in the restaurant turns and looks.

Perhaps not.

Robert Schumann's music has few voicings, simple melodies and is of the highest quality. Too high quality for a crowded bar... Brute force and ignorance works well with drunks. The louder and more forcefully you play, the more they cheer. Reprobates. But when the pints are lined up on the top of the piano, one is mightily glad ones audience doesn't want Beethoven...

Have I missed the point? What is quality, except for adhering to the needs of the audience, and playing to your own needs at home/quieter times.

[werq34ac]

Adding more to the context,
it was a masterclass with a violin sonata and the piano and violin were playing in unison. I forget whether he wanted the violin to come out more or the piano, but that's when he mentioned it. If one takes special care of which voice is to be brought out more than others (quantity of sound), it creates a much more beautiful tone and much more intelligent performance (quality of sound)

[kellyc]

Actually if you change the statement to this then it makes sense. Quantity of controlled sound equates to Quality of Sound.  Or put even more simply . Well controlled Forte and well controlled Piano leads to a quality of playing. Though that is only a small part of the equation. Play the right note with the right finger, hold the note for the correct length of time and with the correct amount of volume and you will have achieved a fine quality in your playing. Of course this is so much easier said than done.

Kelly

[nyiregyhazi]

Adding more to the context,
it was a masterclass with a violin sonata and the piano and violin were playing in unison. I forget whether he wanted the violin to come out more or the piano, but that's when he mentioned it. If one takes special care of which voice is to be brought out more than others (quantity of sound), it creates a much more beautiful tone and much more intelligent performance (quality of sound)

To be honest, I don't really get it still. It would be interesting to know if there was something rather more specific about the context. At best, it merely states the overwhelmingly obvious. At the worst, it could be misinterpreted as meaning something altogether different. Much as I respect Sebok, I'm not sure if this phrase really works as a gem of insight- without any specific explanation behind it to clarify what is actually meant. I suspect it might make more sense in the context of what he said on either side.

There's a very insightful piece of advice from Bolet- about how the key to bringing out a note is not to play it louder but rather to play the competing notes softer. This one makes its point abundantly clear. I really doubt that Sebok would have meant that the secret to quality lies in playing things louder- but as phrased it could easily come across as meaning the opposite to Bolet's piece of insight. Assuming that this is not what he means, I'm still not quite clear as to what this quote is supposed to suggest. If all it means is that giving different voices different dynamics makes for different qualities of sound, we're talking about a foundation level concept of musicality- not anything terribly profound or deep.

[werq34ac]

Actually if you change the statement to this then it makes sense. Quantity of controlled sound equates to Quality of Sound.  Or put even more simply . Well controlled Forte and well controlled Piano leads to a quality of playing. Though that is only a small part of the equation. Play the right note with the right finger, hold the note for the correct length of time and with the correct amount of volume and you will have achieved a fine quality in your playing. Of course this is so much easier said than done.

Kelly

To be honest, I don't really get it still. It would be interesting to know if there was something rather more specific about the context. At best, it merely states the overwhelmingly obvious. At the worst, it could be misinterpreted as meaning something altogether different. Much as I respect Sebok, I'm not sure if this phrase really works as a gem of insight- without any specific explanation behind it to clarify what is actually meant. I suspect it might make more sense in the context of what he said on either side.

There's a very insightful piece of advice from Bolet- about how the key to bringing out a note is not to play it louder but rather to play the competing notes softer. This one makes its point abundantly clear. I really doubt that Sebok would have meant that the secret to quality lies in playing things louder- but as phrased it could easily come across as meaning the opposite to Bolet's piece of insight. Assuming that this is not what he means, I'm still not quite clear as to what this quote is supposed to suggest. If all it means is that giving different voices different dynamics makes for different qualities of sound, we're talking about a foundation level concept of musicality- not anything terribly profound or deep.

Perhaps another anecdote will make myself a little clearer.
I forget the details, but a woman spent 20 minutes of her lesson with Brendel on voicing the first chord of a Schubert Sonata. Although it must have been a frustrating experience for her, afterwards she really understood the magic that occurs from taking special care of voicing. It's not about bringing out certain notes, it's the varying degrees in which we bring them out. It's really more than just bringing out a certain note, it's ordering each note of a chord from softest to loudest and determining how much louder than another. Almost as if each chord were a puzzle with multiple answers that must fit within a mass of other puzzles, some of them easier than others.

[nyiregyhazi]

Perhaps another anecdote will make myself a little clearer.
I forget the details, but a woman spent 20 minutes of her lesson with Brendel on voicing the first chord of a Schubert Sonata. Although it must have been a frustrating experience for her, afterwards she really understood the magic that occurs from taking special care of voicing. It's not about bringing out certain notes, it's the varying degrees in which we bring them out. It's really more than just bringing out a certain note, it's ordering each note of a chord from softest to loudest and determining how much louder than another. Almost as if each chord were a puzzle with multiple answers that must fit within a mass of other puzzles, some of them easier than others.

It's not that I disagree with that. It's just that the quote itself doesn't really convey any of those issues.

Sometimes a single sentence can speak volumes. In this case, even if you can accurately decode it without confusion, it only states the obvious- without implying the wider issues you describe above. If the quote were "the voicing of chords is what generates their character", it would at least point towards the issues you describe above. Much as I admire Sebok, I don't think this a particularly remarkable quote and I'm not sure if it was intended as a profound apohrism that might stand alone. It was, it would be a lot better if it had specifically referred to relative quantities between parts.

[fallen_star]

I suspect the quote has been taken out of context, and is therefore meaningless in itself without explanatory factors. What he really meant by it, we can only muse at.

[xerula]

Sebök's method largely consisted of speaking in little aphorisms that either enlightened or baffled. The context was usually a specific issue being dealt with in a masterclass. Without knowing what that issue is, his words can become imponderable.

There's a lengthy collection of Sebök gems in Susan Tomes' "Beyond the Notes". There's also a book which I don't have yet, "Gyorgy Sebök: Words from a Master", but the website quotes some interesting things... I will quote a few teachings from the Tomes book (under educational Fair Use copyright):

"Some things one cannot practice slowly. Water-skiing is an obvious example!"

[about performance nerves]
"You know the statues of the hero on the horse? **You should look like the horse.**"

"There is a basic fear of attacking the key, descending in the key... If I am not afraid, I don't need courage. What you must develop is trust, not courage."

"Some people don't play long notes - they play short notes and hold them. A long note should have an internal life."