3 against 4, and general practice techniques (UPDATED with recordings)?

[bustthewave]

Hey guys; so I'm at a really "weird" place in terms of what "level" I'm at. I began playing the piano by ear at 2 years old, picking out the chords and notes from a melody on a local commercial I kept seeing (I still remember the song actually...). I had very few lessons growing up, but enough to learn some proper hand techniques.

I continued to compose my own stuff, playing by ear my entire. I still can't read sheet music all to well (it's gotten a lot better since I've been studying a bit as I've had free time over the past 6 months, but it still isn't intuitive. I have to find key notes that I know solidly on the staff as reference notes and count lines and spaces... and total there are about 4 reference notes I use).

So I've been studying with a composition instructor counterpoint, melody, and composition (he's not a piano instructor). This, coupled with school stress has made me want to take up classical piano playing again.

I'm working on two songs, Chopin's prelude No. 15 (no other song I've ever played has ever profoundly moved me...) where I've been pouring over every note, studying the 3 (sometimes 4 I think) competing melodies... and thoroughly paying attention to my dynamics (not in terms of right versus left hand, but in terms of each note, as I really feel like that constant A flat's volume needs to in general just under the melody's volume, and slightly more staccato, while the middle harmonic/accent voice I think should be played under everything else).

The second piece I'm working on is Chopin's Fantasy impromptu (which I'm actually finding easier than prelude No. 15... as there is less intricately dynamic counterpoint... at least in the beginning. This song seems to be more "right versus left hand.")

So the first song, I feel like I'm really getting the dynamics down, and the pedaling; but I have some bad tendencies. In some of the phrases the right hand plays both the main melody and the middle harmonic voice. I'm having trouble separating the dynamics of my thumb and pinky. The pinky plays the melody, the thumb plays the middle voice. The pinky should be louder but I keep playing them the same volume. If I roll the two voices I find it much easier to achieve the dynamic, but Chopin didn't notate that so I'm thinking... I shouldn't take the easy way out.

So what can I do to help develop dynamic independence of my fingers? (Incidentally I don't seem to have a problem changing dynamics per finger with my left hand).

As for the impromptu piece, I started this yesterday. I've never played 3 against 4 before. I looked up some youtube videos, and after practicing impromptu really slowly for about 10 minutes, was able to play the 3 against 4 pretty easily and almost intuitively. I speed up the song to the proper speed, and it "feels" out of control. I've recorded myself playing it using a midi keyboard, and then slowed the playback about 80%, and at the high speed the rhythm is almost perfectly matching up where it should, but it still feels like I'm just playing a mess of notes (even though upon playback it doesn't sound that way... barring of course improper dynamics and lack of pedaling as you do when you're just learning a piece).

I want to be able to play rhythms like this easily and intuitively so I can know and not guess or hope that the rhythm is right. Are there exercises or slower pieces that I can practice on top of impromptu?

P.S. I have tried working the left and right hands very slowly together, and speeding up. I can speed up to only a certain point before I seem to hit a cap. When I get to higher speeds from a slow speed in this song, the rhythm, while I believe technically correct, sounds really disjointed and lacks continuity. If I just start the song at the proper speed, everything seems to fall into place. I'm not sure what the means :/

Thanks guys for any help and advice! Sorry for the overly long post .

[pianoplayjl]

Alas, I can't help you with the fantasie impromptu because I haven't learnt that and never will in a hundred years. For the prelude however, I might be able to help you because I've studied that abit. Can you be more specific with where you need help in the prelude?

[bustthewave]

Alas, I can't help you with the fantasie impromptu because I haven't learnt that and never will in a hundred years. For the prelude however, I might be able to help you because I've studied that abit. Can you be more specific with where you need help in the prelude?

Hoookay, so I did some sample "recordings" using my 5 octave midi keyboard. It posed a few problems, so I can say that I perform much better on my upright piano, but I feel these recordings still reveal similar problems. The issues with the keyboard were this; slightly smaller keys, not weighted, with not as sensitive dynamics. The electronic sustain pedal is also not nearly as sensitive.

So starting with Prelude no. 15:
This is just the introduction. I feel like I pedal much better on my upright, and I really hope I'm not hitting the A flat that hard on the upright either. But where I was speaking about specifically, is where the right hand plays two simultaneous intervals of 6ths going up a single step. I feel like the lower note should be quieter, and I can't seem to achieve this.

https://soundcloud.com/bustthenotes/prelude-15-test

Fantasy Impromptu;
This posed a greater challenge with the non-weighted keys... I had the issue of my fingers sliding around. However, I do feel like even when I play this on my upright, I'm not playing as evenly as I should. I think I'm clustering some notes together that are easy to hit. I guess just practice will fix that. But either way, I could really use feedback on timing.

Two attempts at the first phrase involving both hands. The first is the tempo I actually played it, the second is the same recording slowed down by 70%. I spent time since posting this practicing thoroughly where my left and right should be hitting the same note at the same time. If I read the sheet music correctly, they sync at the first note of each group.

Actual speed played - https://soundcloud.com/bustthenotes/fantasie-impromptu-test-normal

Same recording slowed 70% - https://soundcloud.com/bustthenotes/fi-slow-test

I hope I'm not speaking too soon, but I actually think that's not bad for never playing 3 against 4 before.

[pianoplayjl]

 I haven't played this piece in a while. For the consecutive sixths, try to  apply pressure or tilt your hand towards the pinky as much as possbile. For me, it just came naturally and practiced. I don't know if that helps though. In your recording, I think you can play the melody qiueter or is it just the recording? Keep the left hand quiet. Hope this helps you.

[bustthewave]

I haven't played this piece in a while. For the consecutive sixths, try to  apply pressure or tilt your hand towards the pinky as much as possbile. For me, it just came naturally and practiced. I don't know if that helps though. In your recording, I think you can play the melody qiueter or is it just the recording? Keep the left hand quiet. Hope this helps you.

Actually I'm not sure if I've tried tilting the hand, thanks .

And with the general overall volume I really think it's my keyboard... the dynamics aren't as sensitive as my upright. If I pressed lightly it produced no sound, so I overcompensated :/. The dynamics in relation to each other, while being slightly different, are probably pretty similar to how I play on the upright.

Anywhozit, thanks a lot for the feedback .

I just re-listened in respect to your comment about keeping the left hand quiet, and good lord I apparently thought it was a good idea to bang some notes out. Two notes I noticed in particular, and I did it both times :/. Ugh... musicality is hard ha.

[pianoplayjl]

Yes, musicality is a hard thing in this piece to master. It took me quite a while to master it, as with other Chopin pieces. Once I got the gist of it, it was not that hard after all. Basically, the hard thing in this piece really is musicality.

[danhuyle]

With 3 against 4, you must know where the beats fall. People who play Chopin Fantasie Impromptu, the good recordings, can feel the beats of the music. Once you can feel the beat, you will have greater freedom with the piece.

[bustthewave]

Thanks for the replies guys. So I've been, time allowing, continuing to plug away at these two songs and something I'm realizing- I have, in general, poor technique from lack of training.

Simple things, such as tilting my wrist to emphasize one note over another (which worked wonders by the way), made me realize - I don't use my wrist much to play!

The Fantasie Impromptu piece is actually coming along. My timing I feel like has gotten spot on at the proper speed up through half of the first multi-octave run (taking it small bits at a time) but; my clarity of notes are a problem. I'm practicing and I'm absolutely seeing improvements, but I feel like there is some fundamental technique that would take me further if I knew what it was I should be practicing. To utilize my wrist more, I've tried lifting my hands a bit higher from the piano, which aided the clarity of each note (especially for the run)... but I don't honestly know if this is technically correct.

So I'll keep plugging away at these songs because I'm capable of playing them, but I think I should be practicing some basics in the meantime. In a few months when this semester is over I'll definitely be investing in a piano teacher.

In the meantime, is there a book I can invest in? Or things I should be practicing?

[pianoplayjl]

No worries, Bust. maybe for the Fantasie impromptu, you can divide it into smaller sections to work on, because the fantasie impromptu is such a long and difficult piece.

[12baker]

As for the impromptu piece, I started this yesterday. I've never played 3 against 4 before. I looked up some youtube videos, and after practicing impromptu really slowly for about 10 minutes, was able to play the 3 against 4 pretty easily and almost intuitively. I speed up the song to the proper speed, and it "feels" out of control. I've recorded myself playing it using a midi keyboard, and then slowed the playback about 80%, and at the high speed the rhythm is almost perfectly matching up where it should, but it still feels like I'm just playing a mess of notes (even though upon playback it doesn't sound that way... barring of course improper dynamics and lack of pedaling as you do when you're just learning a piece).

I want to be able to play rhythms like this easily and intuitively so I can know and not guess or hope that the rhythm is right. Are there exercises or slower pieces that I can practice on top of impromptu?

P.S. I have tried working the left and right hands very slowly together, and speeding up. I can speed up to only a certain point before I seem to hit a cap. When I get to higher speeds from a slow speed in this song, the rhythm, while I believe technically correct, sounds really disjointed and lacks continuity. If I just start the song at the proper speed, everything seems to fall into place. I'm not sure what the means :/

Thanks guys for any help and advice! Sorry for the overly long post .

I might be able to offer some help as far as the impromptu piece. I learned it a couple years ago, and I can tell you what my teacher did to help me. I definitely know what you mean when you say it feels like, when you speed the piece up, it gets out of control and how you feel like you have a cap as far as speed.

It always helps me to listen to a piece before I work on it. My favorite recordings of this piece are by Yuri Rozum or Evengy Kissin. Both recordings are fantastic.

I groaned when my teacher told me some of these things, but they actually work...
I started practicing this piece hands separately with the metronome. I would make sure you have a consistent fingering in both hands. I would agree that it is helpful to take it in small sections so it is not overwhelming. I really wasn't able to play the piece well until I had memorized it. It was mostly by muscle memory and I just kind of felt the right hand when I played and didn't really think about the notes.

Some people have told me they have learned this piece by practicing using "stops" or "shut-downs." Basically, with this piece, that would mean you play one set of 16th notes and one set of triplets together and then stop. Play the next set. Then stop. Then the next set. etc. It is supposed to give you more "control" over the piece and can help with consistency and rhythm. I have never tried this myself, but some people swear it worked wonders.

My biggest reccommendation would be to play it slowly with metronome and correctly without any mistakes and then gradually increase the tempo. You may only speed up a couple notches a day. I love this piece and tried to play it too fast too soon. When I played it faster before I was ready, I taught myself mistakes which were extremely difficult to fix later. So I would definitely recommend lots of slow practice. Also, listen to some of those good recordings. It really gives an idea of how expressive and bold the piece is, and it helped me a lot with how the rhythm should sound.

[kellyc]

One of the secrets of playing a piece like this is involves firmly feeling the beat without letting it affect your playing. That is as an example at the start of each group of three left hand notes you must mentally feel that beat in your head , but not let it translate into you emphasizing the beat as you play. The same goes for the right hand. This helps to always make sure that the hands remain synchronized. You can listen to my recording of this piece over on the audition board to see what I mean.

The next thing about this piece is its a bit like riding a bicycle. A medium pace is comfortable, but as you slow down more and more it gets harder and harder to maintain your balance. Trying to play 3 against 4 at a slow tempo is a total killer. On the other hand as you begin to accelerate the tempo and get closer to so called performance level speed, even the slightest wobble on your fingers or hands part will throw your playing completely off. I am talking of course about the beginning and end segments of this piece , not the middle section.

However , good news , once you master this technique you will wonder why it ever seemed difficult.

Keeping up working on this and you will see progress.

Kelly