Practise with a metronome?

[sevencircles]

I played a lot with a metronome lately and it can be a bit awkward but it´s important in my case since my timing is hardly perfect.

What do you think about practising with a metronome?

Which ones of the legendary pianists have practiced a lot with a metronome?

Sometimes it´s not that obvious, I have friend that never practiced with a metronome but his timing is spot on all the time.

[49410enrique]

i am legendary. i use it 100% of the time of 50% of the time.

kidding aside, it is just one tool and you should use it if you need it, if you don't need it don't bother with it, it's not an oversimplicfication, it is as simple as that.

you mention issues with timing, use it, if you're timing improves, great you used the right tool correctly, if not, perhaps you used the right tool incorrectly , the wrong tool correctly, and /or both.

its like asking abut using music, well if you dn't know the music, i.e it isn't memorized then you'd prolly  want the score out in front of you, if you have all of it nailed down all notes, all dynamics, composer remarks internalized 100% of the time you can get by with practicing without a score more than not i suppose.

[sevencircles]

you mention issues with timing, use it, if you're timing improves, great you used the right tool correctly, if not, perhaps you used the right tool incorrectly , the wrong tool correctly, and /or both.

My timing has improved but my playing often sound pretty dry and stiff if I worked a lot with a metronome.

Wonder if Rachmaninov for instance used the metronome a lot? I like his sense for timing a lot.

[stevenpn]

I use it in spurts.  Sometimes I go through phases where I think it's the greatest thing for me at that moment.  It depends on the piece you're practicing and your pianistic state of being at that moment.  The key to succeeding with metronome work is in doing something very ironic and counter-intuitive: Ignore the sound of your own playing and just focus on the sound of the metronome's click (and arm, if applicable).  For me (and my students, apparently) that's the only way to really be with the metronome.  If you follow the metronome, you'll always be behind it.

[pianoyutube]

What do you think about practising with a metronome?

I use the metronome less than 5% of the time. Only when I feel that I need some help with the rythm: trills, 3 notes against 2, and sections like that. When I feel I have fixed the problem I stop using the metronome.
I overused the metronome in the past, and I think that didn't work for me. My teacher told me (just kidding) that I was playing like a robot!
In order to verify my timing, I prefer to record and listen my performance.

[birba]

sometimes I use it to get a particularly nasty passage of to speed.  BUT - I find it hinders me after a while.  Like I start missing notes because I'm trying to keep up with the "tick".  then I turn it off, and I can even get it faster then what I left it at.  Does anyone else find that true?

[candlelightpiano]

I like practicing with a metronome but that's because I just can't count! Considering that I'm married to a former Math Professor, it's not great. But I usually only use the metronome till my timing is more accurate, then I go without. Of course, I am no authority on piano playing! 

[bengoodwin]

Beginning students should always practice with the metronome to start every piece while counting. When the rhythm is completely understood then things like ritards and rubato can be applied without the metronome. The end result should be a piece played evenly without the metronome. How do we do that? By practicing WITH the metronome.

The metronome can be fun, by the way. When imrpovising, set it to beats 2 and 4 and it is more like playing with a drum than a chore.

[autodidact]

I find it hinders me after a while.  Like I start missing notes because I'm trying to keep up with the "tick".  then I turn it off, and I can even get it faster then what I left it at.  Does anyone else find that true?

This seems to happen to me every time I try to use a metronome for getting something up to speed.

[pianoplayjl]

I don't like practicing with the metronome becuase 95% of the time I don 't get it and cannot follow the metronome properly, which is something very embarassing for a grade 8 student. Usually I get close to crying for not being able to do it.  I sometimes find that playing the metronome hinders my playing because I focus so much on following it that I forget about the details of the piece i.e articulation, expression. Despite this I think it is really necessary to use a metronome for practice particularly during slow practice.
Alkan was a pianist who frequently uses a metronome.

JL

[jtguru]

There is only one time I ever turn on a metronome, and that is if the sheet states a specific metronome marking so that I can see what speed it is.

[robertinventor]

Hi, I just wrote a post about this here:

You might find it helpful. Basically the key is to learn to bury the metronome click. The sound of the metronome often vanishes when you do that with a loud instrument like piano - it's when you can't hear the metronome that you are most in time with it ironically.

So there is a whole lot of technique to do with dealing with that and learning to play with a metronome in the pocket - or deliberately ahead or behind the beat - which for some reason doesn't seem to be widely known at all. Goes right down at the bottom of google search results and can't find any youtube videos about it at all - so plan to make one to fill the gap

The basic idea is that to learn to play in time with the click first you play ahead as close as you can get to it, then behind the click, then finally you find the sweet spot in the middle where you are exactly on the click - and when you first achieve that you might think the metronome has stopped working because it seems to suddenly go very quiet - though if you listen carefully it is still there mixed in with your piano note so exactly it merges with it.

Video of 4/4 with the metronome going silent so you can try out and see if you remain in the pocket when it comes back again after the silences:

Anyway you can read my post about it here with a few tips and ideas: https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=43119.msg521073#msg521073

I don't like practicing with the metronome becuase 95% of the time I don 't get it and cannot follow the metronome properly, which is something very embarassing for a grade 8 student. Usually I get close to crying for not being able to do it.   I sometimes find that playing the metronome hinders my playing because I focus so much on following it that I forget about the details of the piece i.e articulation, expression. Despite this I think it is really necessary to use a metronome for practice particularly during slow practice.
Alkan was a pianist who frequently uses a metronome.

JL

[alanteew]

Which ones of the legendary pianists have practiced a lot with a metronome?

I'm tempted to say "all of them" but I don't know what you mean by "legendary". (Liszt? Chopin? Gershwin? Fats Domino? Liberace? The cat in the video on YouTube?)

In my own use, I use a metronome consistently about 25% of the time depending on the piece. If it's particularly intricate, I'm more likely to use it. If I need to nail the fingering or rhythm, it goes on. I've also found, ironically, that the more you use a metronome, the less you need to use it. And the closer I get to polishing a piece for performance, the less I'll rely on the metronome.

There's also an issue of how to use it. I have an old-fashioned electric one with the flashing light on top and the pull-out pin in the back to toggle silent mode. (I hate silent mode.) I grew up using the pendulum style model with that weird slide-rule type thing that you move up and down to set the speed. I've tried digital metronomes and metronome apps. I like the older electric one best.

[charmsjr94]

I'm a freshman in college right now

I use a metronome only on early classical pieces like Mozart, Bach, and Beethoven (infrequently for Mr. Ludwig). Those are the pieces that usually rely on the ticks. When I'm playing romantic pieces like DeBussy and Ravel, or more Modern works like Gershwin, etc.... I don't have a metronome because often times those pieces don't really on a strict tempo.

It's probably just a personal thing

[carlinton]

Hi!
Nothing is wrong with using a metronome during your practice sessions. After all, it will help to correct any problem you have with timing. But look at it this way. There are some songs that have unfamiliar timing and so, you can set the metronome to the correct notes per minute, this will give you a clear idea of the tempo for the piece.
But done get too comfortable with playing with a metronome. Try practicing some pieces without it. Sometime you have to put yourself to the test.

[nick]

I use it to increase my speed as many past concert pianists did. I think the book "interviews with 12 concert pianists" comes to mind. I get comfortable with one speed, then up it 4-6 numbers and then stay there awhile until about the same comfort level is achieved. Always of course perfect accuracy. I don't agree with those stating this method does not work because of some speed wall. Works like a charm for me. Muscles seem to adapt to one speed and then ready for an increase after some repeats, sometimes days, sometimes within the same practice session. I can play with correct rhythm without the metronome so I don't worry about that.  Hope this helps!

Nick

[richard black]

According to my observations, practising with a metronome regularly is a disaster. I base this on students I work with (mostly instrumentalists but not pianists) who have done a lot of practice with a metronome: they are often the worst rhythmically. This is _after_ they have done a lot of practice with metronome. In several cases their rhythm has improved after giving the metronome a rest. I'm not entirely sure why this should be.

Using it once in a blue moon just to check you're not slowing down in a tricky fast passage, for instance, is another matter altogether.

[ahinton]

According to my observations, practising with a metronome regularly is a disaster. I base this on students I work with (mostly instrumentalists but not pianists) who have done a lot of practice with a metronome: they are often the worst rhythmically. This is _after_ they have done a lot of practice with metronome. In several cases their rhythm has improved after giving the metronome a rest. I'm not entirely sure why this should be.

Using it once in a blue moon just to check you're not slowing down in a tricky fast passage, for instance, is another matter altogether.

It may indeed have severely limited practical application for instrumentalists and singers but it can be a rather useful facility for the errant composer, as I know to my cost!

Best,

Alistair

[m1469]

Despite there being mixed reviews by revered people within my musical life, I have somewhat recently started practicing the Mozart Sonata I'm working on with a metronome.  I discovered something interesting, especially upon first doing so, in that it forced me to be thinking with forward motion towards the next beat.  I hadn't realized I wasn't!  I've intellectually known I should be, but it's one thing to know intellectually, and another to actually be doing so.  I have actually found this to be invaluable because of that, though I can't quite put my finger on what I must have been thinking before.  Was I thinking backwards?  Was I thinking only in that certain place where my hands were at the moment, perhaps being too caught in the actual sensation of playing?  I'm not sure but I know there's a lesson to be learned there.  I won't try too hard at the moment to figure out exactly what I was doing wrong, as I've got lots of forward movement to be doing instead  .  Viva la piano ... WOOOT   .  Piano rulz ... singing droolz.

[j_menz]

In several cases their rhythm has improved after giving the metronome a rest. I'm not entirely sure why this should be.

A metronome encourages one to think in terms of timing, not in terms of rhythm, and so does not facilitate the development of any rhythmic sense. In giving the metronome a rest, the ones that improve rhythmically are those that then start to rely on that sense; the rest probably try to count using their own mental metronome.

[maxwebr]

I use it sometimes when I need a bit extra practice at slower tempos, but typically I will write on the score (on particularly hard sections) the beats and count out loud. That seems to work better for my case.

[robertinventor]

Here is my youtube video about enjoyment and relaxation in metronome technique.

You might find it interesting. Helps explain e.g. why it is that beginners may find practise with a metronome doesn't help - and how that is to do with technique rather than the metronome as such, and you can deal with it using suitable technique.

Because you don't get your sense of rhythm from a metronome, it is timing and tempo that it helps with, and there are reasons why it actually throws you off your rhythm if you approach it with the wrong technique especially for loud percussive instruments like piano.

Starts with open questions - then gets on to the technique in the 2nd video segment starts by talking about how you get started with all this - then preparation - then the more interesting stuff in the 3rd and following video segments.

It's quite long so some time I'll do a shorter version of it all, wanted to go into detail to start with. The books recommended by Mac Santiago and Andrew Lewis are excellent.

As it is rather a long video, this is one of the highlights, about how you can merge with the click in a relaxed and enjoyable way.

And depends on this one - talks in detail about the vanishing click

[natalyaturetskii]

I don't usually use a metronome, but it can be quite useful. I would usually learn a piece without a metronome, and when I am nearly ready, I would use a metronome to check that I am playing it correctly (not relying on it to give me the beat, but to check that my playing was in time with it). Once I felt that I was playing evenly, I would put it aside. I think that mainly, it should just be used to check your playing.

Natalya

[mahlermaniac]

I am just starting out learning a little myself on a keyboard right now, before I begin lessons next year. I haven't used a metronome yet, but I know my rhythm could use a lot of improving. So I intend to this weekend.

[j_menz]

I am just starting out learning a little myself on a keyboard right now, before I begin lessons next year. I haven't used a metronome yet, but I know my rhythm could use a lot of improving. So I intend to this weekend.

A metronome will not help your sense of rhythm. Not even a teeny tiny bit.

Clap along to some songs, go dancing, drum out beats on a tabletop; these will all be much more effective.

[sevencircles]

A metronome will not help your sense of rhythm. Not even a teeny tiny bit.

Clap along to some songs, go dancing, drum out beats on a tabletop; these will all be much more effective.

I have worked a lot with a metronome with 16:th note clicks lately and it helped me a lot. I can often here the metronome clicking inside my head even if I turn it off these days 

It helped my timing a lot for sure but you don´t need it if you have good a natural sense for timing.

For Jazzpianists it´s a bit different though.  I know one jazzpianist that has worked a lot with a metronome and his playing is often very boring. You can tell straight away that he spent way too much time playing scales and arpeggios with a clicktrack.

[pbryld]

I find it both necessary and helpful.

[j_menz]

I have worked a lot with a metronome with 16:th note clicks lately and it helped me a lot. I can often here the metronome clicking inside my head even if I turn it off these days 

It helped my timing a lot for sure but you don´t need it if you have good a natural sense for timing.

For Jazzpianists it´s a bit different though.  I know one jazzpianist that has worked a lot with a metronome and his playing is often very boring. You can tell straight away that he spent way too much time playing scales and arpeggios with a clicktrack.

It may well assist with timing. But timing is not rhythm; not in jazz and not in classical either. Get the rhythm right and the timing will be fine; the reverse is not true.

[beethovenopus2no3movt2]

I recommend using a metronome, but it is painstaking.

[sucom]

I wouldn't regularly use a metronome because it can take away the natural flow of a piece. However, I would use one if I was having problems with a particular rhythm or if I wanted to speed up and smooth out a passage of semiquavers/demisemiquavers.

[bamba]

I used to have the metronome playing in the background during my entire piano practice. I used it for every piece. However, at those few times I played without it, it would be very hard for me to reach high speed, I would lose my sense of rhythm in the middle of the piece, I'd start missing notes, and get very anxious in general.
What I realized not too long ago is that the metronome is not only a beat in the background - It is part of the harmony. When you memorize a piece by ear, you also memorize the metronome sound. When you finally have to play the piece without, it feels (at least for me) as though you play a different piece than the one you practiced.
Once I stopped, I improved not only my sense of rhythm, but also was able to play faster with much more ease. I also enjoyed the playing much more.
My recommendation is to use the metronome as little as possible...

[thesixthsensemusic]

I use it a lot, ironically it mainly helps me practice rubato play, as to slow down and speed up while keeping the same pace in the longer run. Actually came up with this idea after watching a video with Daniel Barenboim explaining rubato as 'stealing time and giving it back afterwards'. You can thus make sure to fall behind the pace of the metronome and catch up again at the end of a phrase in a controlled way. It really helps me a lot to stick to the big picture when playing only outtakes from pieces I am working on.

Another thing is, use a stop watch when playing without metronome and keep track of the time. Let's say you are rehearsing a sonata movement and play the A part before the transition begins, in 2.07. That means, if you have to play the same passage again later on, you can make sure it's being played in the same pace before the notes actually start to differ from the first instance, when the climax or outro or whatever starts.

I know I might seem to be obsessed with details, but being naturally very sloppy it's the only way for me to be in full control of my play before I master the entire piece in the correct way.

[j_menz]

I know I might seem to be obsessed with details, but being naturally very sloppy it's the only way for me to be in full control of my play before I master the entire piece in the correct way.

Different pianos and different rooms give a different sense of the speed at which something is being played. How do you account for this.

Also, there is no "correct way"; there are a range of them.

[thesixthsensemusic]

I believe you are referring to interpretation, in that sense, you are absolutely right. That wasn't what I meant though. When I said 'the correct way', it was meant regarding practicing a piece in such a way that you are fully in control of what notes to play when. Because IMHO, only when you get the basics sorted out perfectly, you can start interpreting a piece in your own way. If you don't, you'll spend hours or even days mending mistakes that slipped into your play during practice, I know I wasted a lot of time this way before starting to use a metronome and stop watch.

[j_menz]

I believe you are referring to interpretation.

No, some pianos just sound faster when played at the same speed.

[lloyd_cdb]

That's what makes a lot of the classical repertoire much more difficult today than it was ages ago (repetitive chords, i.e. all of Alkan comes to mind).  My own piano sounds extremely fast when talented people play it (not me).  But on the other hand, I find there is a lower dynamic range for it.  Not sure if it's a trade off, or just coincidence?

My own use of the metronome is used for 2 specific purposes.  I have trouble with all the tempo markings, so I have my list and just listen to the metronome at whatever speed it is for a while before I even start playing (until it begins to do the psychological disappearing act).  Secondly, I use it for groupings, x over y.  I've never been especially musical, and way too mathematical on top of that.  So I'll practice the left hand of the grouping I'm working on 30-50 times in a row into the first beat of the next segment, and then do the right. Followed by 20 and 20, 10 and 10, etc. until I spend 10 minutes just doing one hand then the other Finally I ATTEMPT to combine them once i have the non melodic line almost as a machine.  Although, this only works for me in segments that have a single melodic line.  If it's contrapuntal, I rip the sheet music up.  BUt again, this is one of my major technical shortfalls that gives me issues even down to 3 over 2.  /sigh

[thesixthsensemusic]

No, some pianos just sound faster when played at the same speed.

You know bloody well what I mean.

[j_menz]

You know bloody well what I mean.

Apparently not...

[thesixthsensemusic]

Apparently not...

Sorry, thought you were being sarcastic. However, what I did mean, is, that you need to be in full control of a piece before you can do any expressive stuff with it. When I say 'the correct way' to practice something, I refer to mastering the basics, like being able to play a piece at a steady pace. Only after you know how to do that, you can start adding your own expressive input in changing the pace at which you play it. As I am a naturally chaotic person, I need the metronome to keep track of what pace I am learning to play the piece at, before I have full technical control over it. It keeps one from playing stuff in a sloppy way with uneven tempi etc because a metronome helps you to keep track of the overall pace while studying something. Would I not do that, I'd end up practicing difficult passages slower than easy ones (after learning to overcome them) therefore messing up the way I play a piece because a good performance is all about coherence, and practicing in a steady pace (bar tempo changes indicated in the sheet music) is a large contributing factor to this coherence.

With regard to rubato, I think a metronome (since it ticks on the overall tempo you'd like to follow) helps you to keep track of how much you are slowing down or speeding up while varying the tempo at which you're playing. The whole idea behind rubato (according to both my piano teacher and Barenboim in this video of one of his masterclasses) is to decrease or increase playing speed (in order to emphasise a certain set of notes) and do the opposite later on to compensate for it, leaving the overall playing speed intact. I tried this with various pieces I already had in my repertoire and I must say it really works well.

[j_menz]

OK, that makes sense.

I find that I do it differently. I work out what I want it to sound like alongside learning the notes. I don't really worry if early on I play stuff at weird relative tempi as they sort themselves out later. Need to keep a firm grip on that mental sound image to keep that from going astray, though.

[dora96]

Hi all,

I used to hate to use Metronome due to I couldn't keep up with click sound and get distracted so much. But recently, I am asked to accompany a choir, since then I use metronome to check my timing. At first, it is very hard to practice with it because I am not used to it, the more I use it and the more I love it.

My problem is that I am afraid of being out of time, without the metronome I am lack confident that I am not playing it right. My frustration is that I play the choir music with STAB all parts and the accompaniment part with metronome, all music in each bar are right on the beat, but come to rehearsal, either I am waiting for the choir or still not quite in sync with every bar. I have looked and being subtle with conductor. There is dragging in the music or I am too fast for them why is that. 

[j_menz]

Hi all,

I used to hate to use Metronome due to I couldn't keep up with click sound and get distracted so much. But recently, I am asked to accompany a choir, since then I use metronome to check my timing. At first, it is very hard to practice with it because I am not used to it, the more I use it and the more I love it.

My problem is that I am afraid of being out of time, without the metronome I am lack confident that I am not playing it right. My frustration is that I play the choir music with STAB all parts and the accompaniment part with metronome, all music in each bar are right on the beat, but come to rehearsal, either I am waiting for the choir or still not quite in sync with every bar. I have looked and being subtle with conductor. There is dragging in the music or I am too fast for them why is that. 

If your accompanying a group of singers you have to both give direction to them and follow them; you should never be out of time with them by any audible amount. If the choir has a conductor, you need to follow the conductor (your not being a soloist here).