This Steinway a good deal? Help!

[mariewhite]

Hi,
I'm a pretty experienced pianist / teacher looking for a new instrument. I've always loved Steinways and I recently have gotten the chance to try an old Steinway from 1931. It's a 5'11 model L, which has not been fully restored as such (other than minor repairs on and off), and all parts seem to be original. It has had maintenance done to it on and off (it belonged to a concert pianist). The frame has been annotated about 9 times over the years, the last note being from 1973. We've learned those are dates when some sort of maintenance has been done to it.

The piano plays really well, with a beautiful tone and very responsive action. Some of the problems include a non-functional left pedal, some keys sticking, the action needing regulation, etc.

I've gotten the price down to $9500. We've had a technician look at it (well respected PTG member) who said it was a "steal" at that price, and that he could restore whatever needed restoring (restringing, replacing some pins, fixing up the action, voicing the hammers, etc) for as low as $6000-$7000 in restoration costs. This does not include refinishing the cabinet, which is in glossy walnut and seems surprisingly good for its age (though it has some scratches and parts where the finish is missing). He acted like we'd be insane not to get it. He says the soundboard and frame are in perfect condition.

On the other hand, I've read a lot of posts on forums about how an unrestored Steinway of this vintage is little more than a "core piano", and how it's better to get a new piano in the same price range. I'm not sure if I would refer to this as a "core piano" since I could get through Liszt etudes and other pretty high level pieces without hardly any glitch, and they sounded great. But at the same time, I'm worried it's a money sink, and won't be a good purchase, so I'm looking for second opinions. I know the important thing is for me to enjoy the piano, etc, which I'm sure I will. But while I don't need it to be some amazing "investment", I would at least want to be sure that it keeps its value and that I could ideally resell it for at least as much as I put into it, if I need to in the future (and obviously for more than that, if possible).
Thank you.

[49410enrique]

10k buys a lot of piano in the current market (more a buyers market vs sellers esp on the used side of things).

i think ss are great don't get me wrong buy there are other equally, better, and almost better options for about the same money if you kick over enough rocks. best to have an initial choice of 3 or more then eliminate it down to 2 then all things being equal just go with the one that speaks to you more musically, the one you feel you really connect with that would be an extension of you every time you sit down.

don't rule out a well maintained newer high end kawai, they have learned a thing or two over the years and with their volume the economies of scale gives you more piano per dollar than almost any other make. (i.e look at somethign in the RX line)

are we talking an american ss or a hamburg ss, they are to me different instruments entirely, with my leaning towards the german ones being much better overall most of the time.

if you can find one, a used kemble grand will get you a good mix of high end japanese /yamaha quality and craftmanship with a mellower richer/european sound

on the american side, it would be good if you can play a comparable mason and hamlin or even (much more rare though) charles walter.

good luck.

[quantum]

Over here (Canada) $9500 for a Steinway would be dirt cheap.  I've seen Steinways suited for the dumpster go for 10k or more, just because it is a Steinway. 

Unless you are looking to sell the piano in the short therm, I wouldn't worry much about the resale value.  If this piano gave you 50 years worth of enjoyment and would subsequently be worth next to nothing at that time, I would say you more than squeezed out its value.  Nonetheless, the Steinway name does demand a good resale value, even for instruments in poor condition.   Would you rather have a piano that inspires and brings you joy every time you play it, or a piano that can make you some money after you realize it doesn't speak to your heart?

49410enrique makes a good suggestion on trying our several other pianos. 

[willvenables]

don't rule out a well maintained newer high end kawai, they have learned a thing or two over the years and with their volume the economies of scale gives you more piano per dollar than almost any other make. (i.e look at somethign in the RX line)

Kawai pianos are very good... but earlier examples have a very neutral, clinical tone lacking in character or refinement. Same goes for Yamaha. Whilst Kawai pianos are marketed to be the mellow alternative to a Yamaha - brilliance in tone is entirely related to voicing (altering hammer felt tension to adjust brightness) so you can equally have a bright Kawai and a mellow Yamaha. The characteristic in tone between Yamaha and Kawai is what you should be comparing and as they are both decent pianos, it is impossible to suggest the right one for you... it is subjective, a matter of personal preference.

if you can find one, a used kemble grand will get you a good mix of high end japanese /yamaha quality and craftmanship with a mellower richer/european sound

Kemble k173 grands are not European in any way. They are simply a Yamaha C2 with the Kemble name and have been voiced to a more mellow tone - and this 'voicing' process is technician time, not design, build or material related. If you want a mellow tone, have the piano you like voiced to be mellow by your technician. I cannot see any advantage in buying a Kemble K173 over a Yamaha C2...

What I will say, and this applies to Kawai as much as it does Yamaha, is that Japanese pianos are very 'time' sensitive. The year the piano was made has more weight than any other make of piano. As recently as 2008, Yamaha C series grands, especially the C1 and C2, were redesigned and the performence is unquestionably better vs earlier examples. If someone raves about a C2, that's great - but which model/year impressed them? Don't go running out to find a C2 from 1990's and expect the warmer, richer tone of the post 2008 model.

on the american side, it would be good if you can play a comparable mason and hamlin or even (much more rare though) charles walter.

Agreed. Some American pianos are great instruments, and it is a shamer that here in the UK and in Europe - there is little presence of them. Although I haven't seen a Charles Walter, I have seen a few Masons, and those I have seen have impressed me. Powerful, clear, singing tone. Very well designed and built pianos. However, I don't know if there were periods of design/build variants to look for or too avoid.

It is true that Hamburg Steinways typically have a warmer, richer and distinctive singing tone over the New York Steinways which have a harder, faster tone. Hamburg = sustain, New York: Attack.

With a rebuild, you don't know what the result will be until it is done. Look at it this way: a Steinway for $10k plus rebuilt for $8k = $18k. Would you buy a piano for $18k without trying it first? It could be a superb piano... it could be mediocre. The only 'guarantee' you have is that it is Steinway, plus the credentials of your technician's abilities and if he does the best job possible.

Perhaps... you would be better off looking at a younger piano - a much younger piano, one that has been designed very well, built well - but mass produced. Just 5 yrs old with maybe a service and bespoke voicing and regulating? Find one you like, take your tech. along and see what adjustments can be made if necessary and how those adjustments would best suit you.

I think your budget is enough for a good quality grand piano of approx. 5'8" / 6' having had little use in a domestic environment. There is far less risk associated with this option and you will have far more choice... plus, you will have a realistic impression of the piano's performance and characteristics with only a small amount of adjustment - if any - needed, rather than going on the name and hoping for an incredible result.

It amazes me how often I see a rebuilt Steinway, Bechstein, Bluthner etc. offered in part exchange against a new Yamaha. To me, that says alot. The exclusive design and build features of high-end pianos back in the pre 1930s were exclusive until the patents expired and other makers shared them. Steinway designed the capo d'astro bar, full duplex scaling, tapered edge soundboard, continuous harwood rim - and today - the majority of new grand pianos are made with these features. So, this makes the Steinway less exclusive. Bluthner's 4th string in the treble (Aliquot) was a good idea - but has little affect and other makers have not incorporated it  within their design.

So, it may be worth keeping an open mind and visiting lots of showrooms and private homes with pianos for sale and find, through playing many instruments, which one you like the most and what characteristics you know you want. Sometimes, it takes a good session of 'piano hunting' to discover something you didn't know you liked yet!

We have a series of articles on our website about piano advice - including piano preparation, the piano industry, modern vs rebuilt etc. Have a read and gain some more knowledge...

https://www.chrisvenables.co.uk/piano-advice.htm

Best wishes over Christmas and New Year.

[pianoplayjl]

Oh yes it is a very good deal. It is definitely worth alot more if in pristine condition. You can't buy a good grand for that price. Worth restoring the Steinway in my opinion if your technician says he can do it.

JL

[john90]

You like the touch and sound, and like Steinways in general. I would go for it, not do strings just yet,  just get the tech to go over it for half a day or so. Let it get aclimatised to your house over a year or two. Take it slow. If you are lucky it may need very little. If you find it is not for you, I think you will start to know very soon in your ownership, when you can sell it on as a $9000 core piano loosing very little if anything.

[indianajo]

In the mid-west $9500 for a 9' Steinway that plays well is pretty good.  I'm not big into restoring if the piano hasn't been played to death.  Look at the middle hammer profile for match to the ends to determine if he piano is high hours or not.  Other potential problems to kill the deal are a broken soundboard, (visual inspection).  loose pins that lose pitch too fast.  The latter is more likely to be hidden by a dealer (who tuned it yesterday) than a previous owners or heirs. The non-functional soft pedal is probably a 1 hour repair unless parts are missing.  I could make most parts of this except the pedal in an hour in my garage.   
My $1000 1941 Steinway console has been a pleasure.  Yes, it took me seven times to tune it after 35 years of neglect.  Yes, a couple of keys stick and will require disassembly to ease them. The tone is beautiful, and the pitch is just now needing retuning after two years. My 1982 Sohmer console needs retuning every month.   

[keys60]

I'd have to agree with John on this one, especially since you've stated that you are an experienced player/teacher. You pretty much know what you expect out of a pianos performance, so sit down and play this thing for an hour or 2. If you like the touch, tone and overall fell of this beast, 9500. is a steal. I rarely see a decent Steinway grand at that price. A good regulation may cost 700-1000 depending on if the flanges need repinning/new felt. The knuckles can easily be rebolstered (shaped) to take flat spots out and believe it or not, that improves the touch dramatically. If it plays to your liking now, get it and have work done over time as needed.