I need help with these passages! (trills)

[jdmpy]

Hi again, I'm currently working on Beethoven's Sonatine in F minor WoO 47/2, and I have some doubts about how should I play trills.
I did a quick research and for what I read, there's not just one way to play them, nevertheless, I'd like to get your opinion.
Here's a pic of the passages.

1)Is it ok to play either F-G-F and G-F-G-F? I think the second option sounds better, but I'm not sure if it's actually correct.
2)I was doing just fine until this point, but for some reason, I can't manage to get through the trills part successfully! So I'd appreciate any advices!
I have a teacher but I won't have any lessons for a couple of days now, so I'd like to advance on my own as much as I can.

And by the way, I have a VERY important question, HOW should I approach a new piece?
Meaning, how can I "analyze" it properly? My teacher gave me a brief introduction into the topic, but I'd like to read about it anyways, since my "piano year" has just started. And this year, I'm trying a lot harder than the last one, in which I travelled and couldn't practice properly, so here I am!

Again, I want you to know that ANY advice is really appreciated, since I don't have friends that play any instruments I have to rely on these forums!

Thanks for passing by!
Best Regards from Paraguay,
Jdmpy.

[cas70]

There are trills further on, but you seem to be referring to the mordent in the first measure.  The mordent here is executed F G F.

[caioramos]

Hi JD!

This a very beautiful piece! I just heard it


At number 1, that is not a trill. It's called Mordent. It's played as F-G-F. It will always be like this, you start at the note written, then play the upper diatonic note, then go back to the main note again.

At number 2, that's a real trill. You play as Db-C-Db-C (the first one), then F-Eb-F-Eb for the second trill...  and so on.
In a trill you most of the time start at the upper note. But there is some exceptions, as when the note before the trill is the trill upper note, then in this case you usually start the trill on the written note, like the mordent.

Hope it helps!

[pianoplunker]

Hi again, I'm currently working on Beethoven's Sonatine in F minor WoO 47/2, and I have some doubts about how should I play trills.
I did a quick research and for what I read, there's not just one way to play them, nevertheless, I'd like to get your opinion.
Here's a pic of the passages.

1)Is it ok to play either F-G-F and G-F-G-F? I think the second option sounds better, but I'm not sure if it's actually correct.
2)I was doing just fine until this point, but for some reason, I can't manage to get through the trills part successfully! So I'd appreciate any advices!
I have a teacher but I won't have any lessons for a couple of days now, so I'd like to advance on my own as much as I can.

And by the way, I have a VERY important question, HOW should I approach a new piece?
Meaning, how can I "analyze" it properly? My teacher gave me a brief introduction into the topic, but I'd like to read about it anyways, since my "piano year" has just started. And this year, I'm trying a lot harder than the last one, in which I travelled and couldn't practice properly, so here I am!

Again, I want you to know that ANY advice is really appreciated, since I don't have friends that play any instruments I have to rely on these forums!

Thanks for passing by!
Best Regards from Paraguay,
Jdmpy.

Unless otherwise noted trills are to include the next note of the scale above the written note so here you would play F-G-F - to me it is almost like a very fast triplet.  One thing about trills is you dont want to play them too fast - it will sound choppy. Make it a graceful part of the melody.  I like to learn the the basic piece before working on the ornamentals which can be sooo difficult to execute. when I practice I work trills and other ornamentals such as Presto sections by themselves. Segue to your other question. When checking out a new piece I like to investigate different sections just as an outline. After that, I start with the very last bar of the very last section at the END. then i play the second to the last bar AND the last bar , then the third to the the last bar all the thru the last bar. Eventually working from  the beginning of the last section all the way thu to the very end. I do that with every section. When practicing thru each section always play all the way to the end of the section. This ensures that you will practice the end at least as much as the beginning if not more.  And the stumbling parts are easier to identify and resolve at least for me.

[enjru]

And by the way, I have a VERY important question, HOW should I approach a new piece?
Meaning, how can I "analyze" it properly?

Try to think of the piece of music in terms of "paragraphs". You should be able to identify at least 2 paragraphs that are different in terms of their mood, their speed and rhythm, the progression of their notes and maybe even the keys in which they are written, etc. If you think of different paragraphs in a piece of writing, different paragraphs will be talking about different things. It is similar in a piece of music.

The next step is to recognize how these paragraphs are arranged. The most basic arrangement which would require any structural analysis would consist of just one paragraph followed by a second paragraph and you’ve already come to the end of the piece of music. We say that such a piece of music consists of 2 parts: Part A followed by Part B, ie, A – B.

Another common arrangement of paragraphs might consist of Part A followed by Part B, and then Part A returns, ie, A – B – A.

Yet another arrangement of paragraphs you might find will be: A – B – A – C – A – D – A, etc. In this case, the first paragraph keeps coming back, but with other different paragraphs in between every time.

One arrangement of paragraphs is quite complex but very common in larger works of music. 2 musical paragraphs are stated in their entirety at the start of the composition. Usually, these 2 musical paragraphs will be stated in differing keys. Then, little bits from each paragraph are plucked out and mixed up in different combinations, sometimes upside down or even backwards, and in different keys, sometimes ideas from the first paragraph are played in the right hand while ideas from the second paragraph are played in the left hand etc, until it all becomes very complicated and messes up your brain if you are trying to follow it all. This messing up of your brain is part of what makes this kind of music enjoyable. If you can follow it, it becomes like watching a performance of magic on stage – you can marvel and wonder at all the illusions so cleverly created. Then, just when your brain loses track of everything and gets completely fried, the original musical paragraphs return in their original form but this time, both in the same key. Phew! You’ve reached the end of the musical composition.

There’s musical jargon names given to what I’ve described above which you will memorize in due course, but they’re just to help musicians and musical enthusiasts communicate with each other when talking about a piece of music (or else to help students pass music exams).

Hope this helps.

[jdmpy]

Wow, thanks everybody! I appreciate all of your replies, they've been very helpful!

There are trills further on, but you seem to be referring to the mordent in the first measure.  The mordent here is executed F G F.

I wrote trill instead of mordent, my bad! I actually meant mordent but since I wasn't sure about the translation for that term, I got confused while posting, as you may have noticed, I'm still getting used to translate musical terms 

Hi JD!

This a very beautiful piece! I just heard it


At number 1, that is not a trill. It's called Mordent. It's played as F-G-F. It will always be like this, you start at the note written, then play the upper diatonic note, then go back to the main note again.

At number 2, that's a real trill. You play as Db-C-Db-C (the first one), then F-Eb-F-Eb for the second trill...  and so on.
In a trill you most of the time start at the upper note. But there is some exceptions, as when the note before the trill is the trill upper note, then in this case you usually start the trill on the written note, like the mordent.

Hope it helps!

I now understad that I should play the first trill in the sheet I posted Db-C-Db-C, however, I just noticed that the sheet I'm actually reading (irl) is writtin in a different way, it may be the same, though, and it is just a "step-by-step" guide, that's what I'd like to know!


On the same topic, I searched for recordings of this piece in order to listen what it's like when finished, and in the following video, (min 1:15), I think he plays the trill C-Db-C-Db, instead of Db-C-Db-C, I might be wrong, but I just wanted to be sure, I know there may be different interpretations for different people, but I don't know if that's the case, or I'm mistaken!

(...)
Hope this helps.

It definitely does, thanks for the explanation!

Thanks again everyone! I'm really glad I've found these forums!
Best Regards,
JD.

[rmbarbosa]

Modern way to play trills is to begin the trill with the note over wich appears "tr" and after the next note. Ex: if "tr" is placed over C, trill stars in C: CDCDCDC.....
In baroque music (and sometimes even in Chopin, for example), trills began with the upper note:
DCDCDCDC. But nowadays, much performers play them with the modern approach.
Sometimes, the trill is placed after an appogiature and this fact may modify the way to play it.
Por example, in the Nocturne no 20 (post.) in C sharp minor of Chopin, ther`s a trill in D but with
cd before: cdD (with "tr" over D). In this case, we play cdEDEDED.....
Best wishes
Rui