The purpose of Satan

[meisel]

There seems to be christians on this board, so i have a question i cant figure out about Christianitys "mythology". If God is almighty, which he is, according to the bible, why did he create Satan? What is the meaning of creating people who will have no belief in God, and a warm place that they will end up in when they die? Isn`t this really cruel? Why create an enemy which is evil, if God is good?  

[Allan]

Good question.   Man can make a doll with a pull string which activates a little voice that says, "I love you."  Does anyone really believe that this love is genuine and comes from a real decision from the doll?

[meisel]

Thats a good way of putting it.
And a man creates a doll which behaves "bad", because of the way the man moves the strings, becomes mad at it, and punish the doll!

[Allan]

I see your point.  But if I do not really have a choice between doing good and evil (if I want to do so), what is the real value of that choice?  I once read that in Nazi Germany people had a "choice" on the voting ballot which read:  "Hitler:    Ja___     Nein_____."  Problem was, there were no other candidates they could chose, and the vote "nein" was invalidated.

[klavierkonzerte]

i'm not christian
but i' belive god created satan to test us and to see who truly deserves heaven.

[meisel]

i'm not christian
but i' belive god created satan to test us and to see who truly deserves heaven.

But if God is almighty, he must have created men too? Men who "deserve" heaven, and men who wont.

[m1469]

Allan, I am curious, what is your angle in your very first reply?

Are you simply restating the initial idea?

(I am trying to better follow)

m1469

[klavierkonzerte]

one more thing, god didn't creat him to end him up in hell he created him in heaven first but he dissobied god so he dseves to be punished

[meisel]

one more thing, god didn't creat him to end him up in hell he created him in heaven first but he dissobied god so he dseves to be punished

That is correct, but how can a thing/person who is created, disobey? Isn`t Lucifers disobidience actually god`s will then?

[klavierkonzerte]

god gave us and him free will we can chose to obey or dissoby.

[meisel]

god gave us and him free will we can chose to obey or dissoby.

Thats a paradox, how can we obey of disobey when we, Satan and our surroundings (which form our self) all have been made by Gods hands.
And why would he do this? What is the purpose of this silly game, when he could spare all?

[Allan]

m1469, the point I was humbly trying to make was that if man was simply a pre-progammed robot, this is a diminished life rather than one in which man can actually make a choice (for example to love God or not).   The results of making the wrong choice(s) can be devastating, but I would rather have a world in which man can decide.  

[janice]

Isn`t Lucifers disobidience actually god`s will then?

No.  It is not God's will that lucifer or humans disobey and rebel against God, rather God KNEW it would happen.  The Bible states that God does not will that anyone would  perish (eternal separation,aka hell), but wants ALL to repent and turn from sin, follow God for the rest of their lives, and be with Him forever.  So it is God's will that we be with him in heaven forever.  He loves each one of us!!

[klavierkonzerte]

amen janice

[janice]

i'm not christian
but i' belive god created satan to test us and to see who truly deserves heaven.

There is an awful lot of truth to that!  God didn't create satan, as satan.  He created Lucifer, who decided to rebel, thus becoming satan.  Satan tempts, not God.  Also, NOBODY deserves heaven.  Because we have all sinned and fallen short of God's standard.  BUT God's gift is eternal life THRU Jesus Christ.

[meisel]

It sounds impossible to me, a paradox as i have said earlier, but if i leave that behind, since God is almighty, i guess impossibility is no real challenge for him. But then he also have the opportunity to change this, there are eternal other possibilities that is better than this situation (that is, heaven or hell, regarding what you believe in). He can take into action anytime, and i suppose thats what they call miracles and answers to prayers. If he answers prayers, then he shows no boundraries in taking control over the earth, and make things happen. Why doesn`t he then change the world into something better what it is. By changing it i don`t mean earthy things like no war etc.. but the whole hell-thing, since that is, of course, worse than this world. We are after all not spending our time here in eternal time. What is the meaning behind this situation, why does he want to sort out people?

[m1469]

Thanks for expanding Allan.  I first would like to say that I really appreciate the tone of this thread.

Meisel, I have to say that I really respect your thoughts and questions.  The questions you have asked seem to me,  like polished stones that are such because they have been tumbled over and over, looked at from many different angles and brought forth through reason.  I am particularly fond of your thoughts about the paradox you have mentioned.

I think that you are on a VERY good track ... you know, you may end up in heaven (layered joke, he he, I couldn't resist).

m1469

[m1469]

Oh yeah...

If there really is eternal time, (or we could call it eternity), wouldn't all time anywhere be that very same eternal time?  Wouldn't eternity also have to be infinite by it's very nature, thus including right now?

m1469

[mtmccarthy]

Heh, I don't really want to become embroiled in a religious debate, mind you, but I guess I ought to clarify a thing or two about my position and those that share it, whoever they may be.

As you read this, please note that I cannot change your mind. I can only present to you what I believe to be true, so that you may consider/understand it. That is, you are the only one that can change your mind.

Also, in general, please keep in mind that something above our realm of understanding is not necessarily contrary to it. Our language is limited, and so is our capacity for understanding.

As has been stated before, God created man and angels with free will. (This is one of those "givens" which I cannot convince you to believe if you firmly believe otherwise... though you can accept it if you would like - regardless, debating against it will likely lead to nobody changing anybody's mind.)

Why did God create man and angels with free will? God knows. I don't. Perhaps, free will is a part of God's image, in which He created us, as a reflection of His love. Perhaps it is better that we have free will, so that we can choose to follow God, or choose otherwise. Given that God is all-good, we can assume that He did it for some overall good reason. God knows what is best much better (infinitely better, in fact) than I do. That is, perhaps it's a greater sign of love to give somebody free will and have him reject you, than to not give him the choice at all. Maybe all the bad consequences of our God-given free will are infinitely overcome by the good consequences.

It's a gift, and we can do what we want with it, in any case.

So, Lucifer chose not to follow God. Why?

We don't really know, but we can speculate. That is, some speculate that at some time, God told all the angels that the His Son - the second person of the Trinity, or, the Word, if you will - would take on man's nature in addition to His divine nature. As a result, the angels would have to worship and obey a man (that is, a person who is both fully God and fully man) in their worship and obedience of God. Lucifer refused to bow to this man-God person, and chose to separate himself from God, making himself the enemy of God. But that's speculation, and I wrote it because I found it kind of interesting to ponder/consider.

So, for whatever reason, Lucifer rejected God and separated himself from Him, becoming an enemy of God: Satan. As such, entered a place void of God: Hell.

We can choose to seek God, the truth, and everything ourselves. Likewise, we can choose against it. Yes, God is outside of time, in eternity (an "ever present now," as they say... not contrary to logic, but not fully comprehendible, it seems). In eternity, He knows everything, before, during, and after it happens.

One good thing to remember is that just because Sam somehow knows farmer Bob will throw three sticks to a dog before farmer Bob throws them, farmer Bob is still the one making the choice to throw the sticks. Likewise, just because God knows you're going to choose to go to Heaven/Hell, you are still the one choosing to go to Heaven/Hell.

But, justice is a good thing, and since God is all-good, He is all-just. As such, I believe that we get what we put on our plates, ultimately. What it comes down to is that Heaven or Hell is your own choice, and if you don't deserve Hell, you won't get it. It's believed by some that those in Hell would reject God for the rest of eternity, and that they won't want Heaven, or God, despite all the extreme "warmth" of their surroundings.

(And yes, that was a joke, in reference to Meisel's first post.)



What follows is that I believe that we are the ones sorting ourselves out, not God. It is not my place to say that God should change the world into something better than it already is; He knows what is best - not I - and what is best will ultimately happen.


Please don't debate or argue against these statements. Saying "I disagree" would be fine, but saying "you're wrong" would be pointless, as we all know nobody will change anyone's mind about religion on a piano forum. This post was not made as an attack against anybody - it is a posting of what I believe on the matter, as was requested by Meisel, originally. (I don't think I would have the time to debate in at least the next week or so anyway, since I'm leaving MD for college in Spain, and I have little clue as to what my internet/time situation will be.)

So, if you would like to learn more, it would be MUCH more fruitful to read some good books, on your own, to better educate yourself of the Christian position (if you do not want to learn more, then, well... I have nothing to say). One recommendation is the Summa Theologica, by Thomas Aquinas. https://www.newadvent.org/summa/ seems to be a decent compilation of it... even if you're not Catholic or Christian, I would recommend it.

Also, this is not Christian and it will probably not answer the question "why is there evil", but I recommend you read Plato's dialogues (particularly the trial of Socrates), and listen to Professor Sugrue's commentary on it. Google Professor Sugrue and Plato, and you'll see what I'm talking about. You should be able to find it in public libraries. (Sugrue was a professor at Columbia University, then Princeton University, and he switched this year to Ave Maria University in Florida this year. A smart guy.) It's... a good thing to put stock in, especially if you shun anything Christian. I believe it's a good idea to actively search for what is truly and objectively good.

I hope all that was clear and unoffensive to everyone... I sincerely tried to make it both.

[donjuan]

This is just a joke, so dont jump on me for it-

God created man- and Satan, so man doesnt blame God for everything.  Satan says, "oh no you dont!" and creates lawyers, so people dont blame everything on him.

I have another good lawyer joke- There isnt too much to a lawyer.  Once you shake all the crap out of them, all that is left are lips and a briefcase.

(Here is a common one you probably know)
What's the difference between a catfish and a lawyer?  One is a sneeky slimy bottomfeeder, and the other one is a fish. (well, ok that one wasnt too funny I guess)

ok, there is your comic relief- Get back to the discussion now..
donjuan

[mtmccarthy]

Hehe, I hope there aren't any lawyers here...

Thank you, donjuan. That complemented my post perfectly.

[Allan]

I think Donjuan knows that I am an attorney (and a Lisztian).  

[ahmedito]

Just my 2 cents on the subject.

[monk]

"To believe is to be superstitious." (J. Krishnamurti)

Best Wishes,
Monk

[Daevren]

Its very simple. Without Lucifer god can't be a good guy.

Also, god gave man free will, he wants humans to pick him, pick him over Lucifer. Only when Lucifer exists one can really choose for god.

If there was only god, picking god would be pretty meaningless.

[donjuan]

I think Donjuan knows that I am an attorney (and a Lisztian).  

yep..nothing personal- my second cousin is a lawyer too, but not the interesting kind- he does the real estate stuff.

ok, I wont interfere with this thread again.
donjuan

[ahmedito]

you people dont seem to realize that this thread was hijacked by the Dutch Thread Hijacking Team.... now you can only speak about Dutch stuff.

[blindmouth]

If God is almighty, which he is, according to the bible, why did he create Satan?

funny you bring this up. what do you mean by almighty?

the common perception is that for God to be almighty, he must be perfect. consequently, this means that he is viewed as omnipotent and omnicient.

there is this notion, although it is a minority view, that God is not omnipotent. people with this viewpoint believe that the bible has been misinterpreted, and that what it really says about God is that his power is limited. so he may be omnicient, but he doesnt have the power to control what goes on in the world. a bit controversial, no?

to sum things up, an ultimate (or the best) being does not equate to an absolutely perfect being.

id like to add that this is a view pushed by a catholic  theologian, David Tracy (i didnt think that catholic theologians would be so open minded) . so all of you interested in this viewpoint should probably consult his works for more info.  it sure opened my eyes!

what are you guys thoughts?

[Allan]

God said "nothing is impossible" for Him.  (Luke 1:37) Thus God did not set a  parameter, but instead proclaimed his boundless ability.

[Antnee]

you people dont seem to realize that this thread was hijacked by the Dutch Thread Hijacking Team.... now you can only speak about Dutch stuff.

He's right.... You best start speaking in Dutch. OR THE DEVIL WILL GET YOU!!!! (sorry I couldn't resist...)

[blindmouth]

God said "nothing is impossible" for Him.  (Luke 1:37) Thus God did not set a  parameter, but instead proclaimed his boundless ability.

again, this is dependant on what bible you reference. the world english bible translates Luke 1:37 as the following:

"For no word from God will be void of power"

with this translation, the reader doesnt know what God can and cannot say.

[meisel]

Thanks for answers and information.
There are of course many different views concerning the Christianity, and there are many versions of the bible.
By almighty i mean the most common perception, that God has infinite power, power to do whatever whenever wherever, and since God started the wheel of time (and created the world surrounding it) that only seems reasonable. It is contradictory to remove power, when the "person" who removes it, is almighty.
For example, the famous "Can God create a stone which is too heavy for God to lift?"

I keep wondering, why did God create Lucifer, who became Satan? He must have knew what would happen. He only opened another place for the less "fortunate" people to come to. So, he did this because we should have free will, the choice between him and Satan, heaven and hell. Is a choice between torment and pleasure really a choice? Nobody wants to go to hell, thats obvious, its because they don`t believe it exists (because of the persons environment and so on, which, when you look deeply at it, God himself created), that they end up there. It is therefore not a free,and certainly not a fair, choice. So why did God give us this socalled "free will", which only make many people get thrown into the lake of fire after death?

[janice]

God gave us "free will", because , as stated earlier, this is the most LOVING thing to do.  God wants our worship and adoration out of CHOICE, not out of the fact that He has blessed us, or out of fear, but out of love.  Yes, as you said, it is obvious that nobody would want to go to hell, but most people, unfortunately, do not want to do what the Bible says to do to ensure that you DO NOT go there.  And I think that the question that is thought by people is "If God is so good and loving, how can He send anybody to hell?"  The answer to that is that God doesn't want ANYBODY to go to hell (no matter how evil they are), so He sent Jesus, who became the atoning sacrafice for EVERYONE's sin.  God wants YOU (YOU, meaning the reader of this post) to be with Him forever in a place of eternal bliss, not in a place of eternal torment.  The Bible says that before the creation of the world He knew you.  He didn't just "know of" you, but he "knew you".  He knows the very number of hairs on our heads (and I'm sure that number is rapidly declining with some of us! hehe).  He knew what our choices would be.  You might think "Well, then why did He evencreate those who would reject Him?  Because that is mean, to create someone and know that they would do.  Why didn't He NOT create them, thereby making hell empty?".   The answer is......I don't know.  I doubt that anyone does.  But I can just speculate that it might be back to free will.  It's like a circle.

[m1469]

Meisel, again, your questions are very insightful and deep!

Perhaps Satan is not what "he" seems to be.  Perhaps "free will" is not what people think it is.  

I am again very impressed with your thoughts, and I am wondering if you would be so kind as to consider seriously my question to you in my post just before this one?  Reply #17

m1469

[Spatula]

one more thing, god didn't creat him to end him up in hell he created him in heaven first but he dissobied god so he dseves to be punished

I agree

[Spatula]

It sounds impossible to me, a paradox as i have said earlier, but if i leave that behind, since God is almighty, i guess impossibility is no real challenge for him. But then he also have the opportunity to change this, there are eternal other possibilities that is better than this situation (that is, heaven or hell, regarding what you believe in). He can take into action anytime, and i suppose thats what they call miracles and answers to prayers. If he answers prayers, then he shows no boundraries in taking control over the earth, and make things happen. Why doesn`t he then change the world into something better what it is. By changing it i don`t mean earthy things like no war etc.. but the whole hell-thing, since that is, of course, worse than this world. We are after all not spending our time here in eternal time. What is the meaning behind this situation, why does he want to sort out people?

Simply because God gives the people A CHOICE - Key word.  It's our will to decide.  Anyone can say that you should do this or that, but its ultimately up to you of where you want to put your will towards.

[Spatula]

Thanks for answers and information.
There are of course many different views concerning the Christianity, and there are many versions of the bible.
By almighty i mean the most common perception, that God has infinite power, power to do whatever whenever wherever, and since God started the wheel of time (and created the world surrounding it) that only seems reasonable. It is contradictory to remove power, when the "person" who removes it, is almighty.
For example, the famous "Can God create a stone which is too heavy for God to lift?"

I keep wondering, why did God create Lucifer, who became Satan? He must have knew what would happen. He only opened another place for the less "fortunate" people to come to. So, he did this because we should have free will, the choice between him and Satan, heaven and hell. Is a choice between torment and pleasure really a choice? Nobody wants to go to hell, thats obvious, its because they don`t believe it exists (because of the persons environment and so on, which, when you look deeply at it, God himself created), that they end up there. It is therefore not a free,and certainly not a fair, choice. So why did God give us this socalled "free will", which only make many people get thrown into the lake of fire after death?

Again, you must still relize that if Satan/Lucifer really did early on decided to repent because at first he wanted to become not just like God, but THE GOD, then God would have mercy.  The only reason that Satan is still not righteous is because he refuses to repent whatsoever.  He has hardened his heart so much it's next to impossible to repent.

Take this analogy.

There is an olympic fit swimmer in the sea and he is so brave and courageous. But one day the waves were too much for him.  A rescue boat comes by to help him but he refuses, saying that he'd rather want to fight on his own strength to show others his pride and ego.  

There is the symbol.  The boat is the repentance and salvation, ie Jesus.

It's a matter of you swimming to the boat or not, thinking that you can rough out the storm yourself.

I am sure many of you may find illogical flaws in my analogy, but its the best model I can come up with now while during lunch break at work.

[meisel]

Simply because God gives the people A CHOICE - Key word.  It's our will to decide.  Anyone can say that you should do this or that, but its ultimately up to you of where you want to put your will towards.

Yes, but why did he create this choice? Why not just skip this test and just send us all to heaven?

[Spatula]

Yes, but why did he create this choice? Why not just skip this test and just send us all to heaven?

Because if life was that easy, then we wouldn't even bother to understand God that much more fully.

Take piano for example.  If you were like super duper maestro and could do anything without practicing, then where is the challenge and excitement?  Sure practicing and drilling isn't exactly fun, same with work and school in our lives.  

But when you find that you have made it through that challenge of tedious drilling and sometimes even wanting to quit, you feel more pleasure and achievement rather than boredom.

[Spatula]

In other words, if live that was easy, you wouldn't need a Visa card...oh I mean, you wouldn't need God right?

Even when we got into heaven with that attitude, despite receiving salvation, we wouldn't think much of God.  Which is how satan fell.

[meisel]

Why couldn`t he just include that excitement, or how shall i put it, the mentality of a person who has struggled and felt that he deserves it, and then send the person to heaven, if he is almighty?
There are of course many ways of viewing heaven, if i put on christian glasses, i would view it as a perfect place, pure happyness, regardless of the past.
Is it really worth creating a world where 90 % (its just an estimate) will choose the "wrong" choice, just so that the resting 10 % can feel that they have deserved it?


This world is not excactly perfect, and if God really has created this world, i think he has done a very crappy job.
There must be a million better ways to "make" a world, than this one.

[meisel]

Oh yeah...

If there really is eternal time, (or we could call it eternity), wouldn't all time anywhere be that very same eternal time?  Wouldn't eternity also have to be infinite by it's very nature, thus including right now?

m1469

heh, sorry but those questions just make me crazy

I cant really comprehend the term "eternity", it makes my head hurt!

[Spatula]

Why couldn`t he just include that excitement, or how shall i put it, the mentality of a person who has struggled and felt that he deserves it, and then send the person to heaven, if he is almighty?
There are of course many ways of viewing heaven, if i put on christian glasses, i would view it as a perfect place, pure happyness, regardless of the past.
Is it really worth creating a world where 90 % (its just an estimate) will choose the "wrong" choice, just so that the resting 10 % can feel that they have deserved it?


This world is not excactly perfect, and if God really has created this world, i think he has done a very crappy job.
There must be a million better ways to "make" a world, than this one.

God did not create ...eternal punishment for us humans.  That was created for Satan and his angels solely.  It is our will that puts us there.  

It's not exactly our mission to make this world a better place, although we do have a responsibility of say helping the poor and doing good deeds etc.  In the protestant perspective, its our faith that the Earth isn’t going to be around forever.  Sooner or later, our faith is that we put Jesus as coming back a 2nd time.  
After that the Earth isn’t our (or the Kingdom of God’s) domain, but I’m not saying that God doesn’t have power over what happens on earth.

The first was way back 2000 some years ago in the form as a human and baby.  He took a human form and gone through pretty much every trial that a man would go through and well you’d probably know died for our sins.  It is his sacrificial blood that had freed us from the bondage of sin.  In our perspective, EVERYONE is born a sinner and no one starts off with a “clean slate”, we’re doomed.  It’s not about good works etc to get us to heaven, like many believe (and I feel the flak coming in), but the acceptance and will to turn to Jesus.  

Well you may refute this by saying that people are born neutral and make themselves what they want to be.  The Christian faith is different, of course, and bases its belief in the book of Genesis of why the human race is already sinners.  If you read the first book, Adam and Eve sinned, even though they already had the free will to choose.  Satan in the form a snake said that if they ate the fruit of knowledge, they would be as wise as God and pretty much have his intelligence, but definitely not his power, because God isn’t stupid, he’s got it all planned out.  Eating the fruit was exactly the same action or intention of disobeying God and saying “I’m greater than you”.  So there is rebellion.  And the rest of the human race has to suffer, if you read that the snake bit Adams heel but he would strike the snakes head.  This symbolizes that sin has already penetrated the human race through the bite, but the human race would receive a savior, Jesus, to defeat Satan.  We not only put faith, but know it is the truth that Jesus has already defeated, not killed, but defeated the stranglehold of Satan on mankind, if we put so our faith.  

Now why do we have to spend life for 70 some odd years?  This is to show throughout the generations that mankind has always seeked companionship with some form of “God” or something to fill that void or desire that we yearn for.  They have tried everything from all sorts of governments of democracy, monarchies, etc and all have their problems.  Tell me one single king that not only loves ALL his people, but yet would come down and die (I’m not talking a quick easy death, but torture ie Mel Gibsons Passion of Christ)…  even though the people would mock him and call his death for in vane?  

God has said that we are not of this world, but of his Kingdom.  God doesn’t run the planet earth, but lets the humans decide what to do, and slowly throughout time we find that as technology fills our wants and desires , we can’t seem to be satisfied.  Read about King Solomon and his life.  He had everything he wanted: women, wealth comparable to bill gates, wisdom, and he was a ruler.  Day after day…it seemed awesome at first…but then it seemed so…drab.  If you were to win say… 100 billion dollars US…yeah you’d be so well …happy to say the least.  But what would you become?  How would you treat other people.  Even that amount you cannot even fathom to spend.  Even if you did manage to spend everything you wanted in life…would you be fully satisfied?  I guarantee that you’d not be.  Why?  Because you cannot keep if for eternity!  

Greed is what runs the world you see, it’s the lust for power and more and more and its compulsive.  Something that not only you but many others cannot see is that Satan is not just about being bad.  Satan doesn’t even give one tear for the misery that you suffer or feel pain of a bad school test or a fight etc, because he is the biggest liar in the whole wide world…literally.  If you look at the 7 deadly sins, they all reveal that the physical body in common, and that you can fulfill all the wants and needs of your body, but never of your soul and spirit with material or worldly things.  Think about it.

And the worst thing is that he will constantly lie to you and even one of his greatest lies is the lie that Satan does not exist.  That B@st@rd!  

I hope that you can see that it’s not God that want’s to control the world, he wants people to recognize throughout the generations that at the end of life…what are we put on this planet for? We are put on this planet to accept that there is God and that he wants to see us first put faith to trust in him.  Of course its doesn’t make sense at first…well even if you tried to comprehend all the major parts of the Christian faith at one go…you couldn’t…kinda like learning the entire rach 3 (oh man here goes another rach analogy) in 1 night..

When you put your faith into it…you’ll slowly but surely start to see why Christians start to think the most illogically* at first, but it clears out.

If there was no God…what purpose is there for life? Wouldn’t all your efforts in piano and in school be for vain if its meaningless by the time you end up in the graveyard.  

I highly recommend for you to take up the book “The Purpose Driven Life” by Rick Warren.  I personally find that you’ll be totally lost if you start to read the bible right now, even though I did make the references to King Solomon etc.  So start reading the purpose driven life book for now if you’re interested.  

If you do decide to read the bible, take up any translation although I recommend the New International Version for starters.  

*Christians are taugh to be Christ like..for example: to be the first in the kingdom of heaven, you must be the last, meaning that if you want to be right in Gods eyes, don’t be boastful or egotistical, but let him show you slowly.

Well my lunch break is over.

[Spatula]

I don' t get the "eternal time" anywhere else thing.  

[janice]

VERY VERY well said, Spatula!!

[ChristmasCarol]

The purpose of Satan is a belief that scares "the hell out of" people so that they will do as the church says.   I have another question for you, why only one Bible a couple of thousand years ago?  Also, the Biblical rap hasn't changed by one word in ever so long.  That "You must be free to choose" bit has been thrown out there forever.  It's really not a good answer.  Another thing that bothers me... why does God have to be "he".  Why does Satan have to be "he".   The need for a "father" who cares for us is behind the simplistic fundamentalist dogma.  Just my opinion.  

[xvimbi]

The purpose of Satan is a belief that scares "the hell out of" people so that they will do as the church says.   I have another question for you, why only one Bible a couple of thousand years ago?  Also, the Biblical rap hasn't changed by one word in ever so long.  That "You must be free to choose" bit has been thrown out there forever.  It's really not a good answer.  Another thing that bothers me... why does God have to be "he".  Why does Satan have to be "he".   The need for a "father" who cares for us is behind the simplistic fundamentalist dogma.  Just my opinion.  

God has to be male, because women are evil. It says so in the Bible. Don't tell GW  

[bernhard]

Perhaps Satan is not what "he" seems to be.  Perhaps "free will" is not what people think it is.  


m1469

I think some of you guys should be careful where you end up with your arguments.

Let us consider some analogies.

You recently bought a shop in a new neighbourhood.. One day some Italian guy comes around and tells you how much he loves you, how much he would like you to be part of the local community. And how much he wishes you to succeed. But this of course depends on you having some sort of insurance against something bad happening to you or to your shop. You need some protection, “capici?”. “protection against what?” you may ask, if you are naïve enough. But we all know that the guy who is selling protection to you is the one you need protection from. Paying him will avoid him doing nasty things to you and to your shop. He may even assure you that he wants you to do it out of your own free will. He may even sincerely believe that he wants you to love him and the family, to give them “respect”. Love and respect “the family”, and everything will be fine! You will be in heaven! Refuse to pay the protection and all hell will break loose. He may even come accompanied with the local law enforcer (= the police) to show you that they too are in their payroll. Would you consider that this is a situation where you have free will?

Now imagine you have a child, say 4 years old. This child is kidnapped. The kidnapper tells you that you must pay ransom or your child will die. Would you say that you have free will? Would you call that a fair choice?

Now imagine that some man (or if you are a man, some women) develops a crush on you. S/he just wants to be loved. Of course s/he wants you to love him/her out of your heart, out of your own desire. S/he does not want you to love him/her out of fear of consequences. But if you do not love him/her, s/he will burn your house, spread malicious gossip about you, kill your dog, and make a scandal at your work place. Would you say that you have any free will on this matter?

Are you sure you want to tell me that there is a “god” who, if I don’t love him and do as he says will throw me in hell and call that free will? Well, being the sort of guy I am, I would rather go to hell than to submit to this sort of blackmail.

So, I should be very careful, because as m1469 has hinted you may have completely misunderstood the issues here. Surely you do not want to equate your god to a mafia operative, or to a kidnapper, or to a stalker, do you?

By the way, in eternity there is no time. There is nothing complicated about it. Eternity is to time as depth is to a plane. This means, fellow pianists, that there is no music in Heaven (since music is time dependent). Consider this before rushing to buy your tickets.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Spatula]

Hmmm...where to begin...

God isn't fair, he's merciful.  And this doesn't make sense, but that's where our faith is.
I wouldn't equate him to a mobster or what have you, because we cannot comprehend God the same as a human.  

I must say that Christianity from the outside perspective looks a lot like junk, praying to thin air and singing songs to a screen, whilst hoping some mystical things from the imagination will spring out and do good stuff if we submit.  

Christianity doesn't make sense, as a matter of fact it's soo illogical that many faiths can't seem to comprehend it and why its so backwards, and why Jesus said things and did things so backwards.  Like turning your cheek and letting your enemy slap you silly and yet steal your stuff, yet you aren't supposed to get upset.

And the bible is the most BORING book on earth, even more boring that 1001 ways to watch grass grow.

I mean how illogical is that to common sense?  

But that's where our faith lies in, because we believe, and I say believe, in something that people will stare at us and mumble amongst each other.  

When people say, okay I'll do it my way and not wanna have God.  God will say, okay I'll leave you to your own and let you fend for yourself, but sooner or later you will realize that it's much easier to follow in my footsteps.
God is actually pretty patient, as I can easily testify that I'm no saint, and a lot of times I'm not following him.  
I doubt that he'd start shooting lightning bolts everytime you turn away.  

Again please, just because I follow him doesn't mean I know EVERYTHING about why God does this and why he does that...if I did, then it'd be pointless to yearn after him.

I understand your point of the free will, like the free will for us to either serve him or not.  Yes I can see that people would want to have it where if you join him then good, but if you don't, then there's no punishment for not joining the club so you can go your own way.  

If this was the case, then there would be no reason for God, because what role or what point would God be except as a side character that made world and sit back?  I don't even know what would be the point then of life if serving God was truly optional without consequences.  I think it'd be chaos and people and greed would just rule, simply because there'd be no point in life if joining God was pointless.

If you were to ask then of why people know the difference of good and evil, that's answered when both Adam and Eve ate the fruit of knowledge, so it opened their eyes and they were able to distinguish that.

haha I can already hear the "bullsh*t, people always knew good and evil, your bible is another fairy tale to pointlessly and hopelessly explain what the world knows is 'true' ".  No offence taken.  But that's what I truly believe that the bible is 100% true.  

And sure music will still be in heaven, because I wouldn't see why music wouldn't be even if time was not kept.  Time would still be passing but no one would bother to keep track of the minutes or days or years, it'd still be flowing or else then people would just be stuck in some sort of suspended animation.

I believe the bible is one of the, if not, the most difficult and complicated books out there simply because this is a reflection of how complex and deep God is.  Even sometimes I see this as God thinking's is kinda jumbled up, but I'm rested assured that its not, its just too deep for us to fathom exactly how he thinks.  But at least I can also be rest assured that hes sane.  

I'm not mad at any of you, I'm just stating what I put my faith into.  And I wouldn't be surprised if people start saying "what's wrong with this kitchen utensil?", because Jesus went through that same humilation.
So yeah its totally up to you because its your will to see and believe what you want.  

It's not going to negatively change my outlook if you wish to decide whatever you believe.  But I'd be happy to share with you if any of you are interested in this faith.

[janice]

Bernhard, very thought provoking.  I also have some thought-provoking things to say.  But I need to sleep on it and formulate my thoughts, ok?!  See you in awhile!  btw--we missed you at chat last nite!