Schumann Kinderscenen op. 15

[gesualdo]

I have a question for serious piano scholars.  In the Clara Schumann edition of Schumann's collected piano works (which was reproduced by Dover in 3 volumes), in the last movement of op. 15, Kinderscenen,  Der Dichter Spricht, there is a peculiarity which I would like to know more about.  In the 6th measure, the second chord consists of c, e1, c2.  There is no a, which one would assume there should be, logically following the turn preceding the chord.  I have found some editions which include the a (presumably adding it because it seems logical and theoretically correct, and mistakenly left out).  I too would have considered it a mistake had the chord not been spelled the same way when the passage repeats at the end.

Can anyone give me clarification on this.  Is the original attended not to have the a, or have scholars found out differently?

Thank you,
Mike

[bernhard]

Unfortunately no original autographs have survived for this piece (the only autographs for Kinderscenen are for nos. 1, 6 and 7).

Both the first edition (Breitkopf & Hartel, 1838 ) and Clara’s edition of the complete works of Schumann (prepared posthumously in 1881-1893 – and which I assume is the Dover one you mentioned) do not have A as part of the turn.

Breitkopf’s edition is considered by Howard Fergusson as both authoritative and reliable:

“The lack of a complete autograph, though regrettable, is less serious than it might be, for the first edition gives every indication of having been engraved with care.”

(Howard Ferguson – “Introduction to Kinderscenen” – ABRSM)

Therefore it seems that the A is not there because Schumann did not want it there.

You may also want to consider Alfred Brendel’s opinion on the matter (he also does not finish the turn on the A):

“Here [he is referring to bar 6] the player should observe the part-writing with loving care; the ascent of the G sharp up to the E of the appoggiatura can remain obscure. I am still waiting for the edition that will clarify the matter and refrain from printing that last note of the turn underneath the anticipated E. Where Schumann notation errs we are entitled to correct it. The entry of the appoggiatura, by the way, has to coincide with the C of the bass if the ascending interval of the sixth is to become clearly audible.”

(Alfred Brendel – “Music Sounded Out” – Robson)
[my italics]

In short, Brendel is suggesting that the last A of the turn is actually replaced by the E of the RH appoggiatura.

Does this help?

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[gesualdo]

Bernhard,

Thank you so much for your thoughtful reply.  It is indeed quite helpful.  I have always been of the opinion that the A should not be present and that Clara's edition (as well as Breitkopf) is correct.  

I find Brendel's comments rather curious in that he assumes the error to be the coincidence of the last note of the turn and the anticipated E.  I too have always believed the turn led to resolution on E.  However, I find Brendel's next comment about the appoggiatura having to coincide with the C in the bass a bit questionable.  He says this must be so as to audibly clarify the ascending sixth from G# to the E of the appoggiatura.  My feeling is that having the E coincide with the C in the bass just further obfuscates matters.  My feeling is  that there should be a clear movement from G# to E (played as an anticipated note) follow by the other notes of the chord. His assertion that "where Schumann notation errs we are entitled to correct it" is perhaps off base.  If we start making changes to compositions based on what we think may be mistakes we will be causing a lot of trouble.  It is dangerous to make these kiknds of assumptions.

The real mystery, and one which will never be answered, is WHY did Schumann write this as he did?  One could simply chalk it up to the quirkiness of a troubled mind, but my instincts tell me that he had a good reason for it.  I am sure we could all speculate for eternity on the matter but, we will still not have THE answer.

Thanks again,

Michael

[allemande]

I realize this topic is very, very old, but i came accross it searching somethign else and wanted to give an opinion.

This discussion is about if there should or should not be an A in the contraalto voice in the 6th bar? Personally, yes, i believe there should be, for 2 reasons:

1.) The harmony implies that there should be an A there. In the 5th bar there is a modulation to A minor. The 4th bar ends with a V chord, and the 5th bar begins in A minor with a VII4/3 chord (G#-B-D-F natural), which resolves in a I chord in first inversion, then in the 6th bar we have again a VII chord, but in first inversion (VII6/5) which again should resolve in a I chord. the G# in the first beat of the 6th bar should resolve to A.

2.) To repeat a melodic design. In the first 3 bars of this piece the bass and tenor produce a parallelism of 6ths. In bar 5 schumann retakes this idea and repeats it, the A in bar 6 would give the composition a more coherent structure, representing ideas that were presented earlier...

[landru]

I don't have an opinion on the A or not, but just want to add my two cents on also taking into account that Schumann's "rules" aren't necessarily the expected classical rules of harmony and structure. In many pieces of Kinderszenen, in my opinion he goes against expectations to further illuminate the "Scene" that he is writing about. For instance in the very first piece "Foreign Lands and People" the main theme ends on a major third above the tonic - giving it a "foreign" feel away from home. Classically, you want the theme to end on the tonic, but as it is you are left with a wistful feeling.

I would posit that something similar may be happening here - the piece is romantic or like a fantasy, and is called "The Poet Speaks"! Maybe there is some poetic license going on here? I agree with gesualdo when he says "If we start making changes to compositions based on what we think may be mistakes we will be causing a lot of trouble.  It is dangerous to make these kinds of assumptions." I haven't played this piece left, but when I do, I would take very seriously what the turn sounds like without ending on the A and what that may mean to the piece as a whole.

[allemande]

I don't have an opinion on the A or not, but just want to add my two cents on also taking into account that Schumann's "rules" aren't necessarily the expected classical rules of harmony and structure. In many pieces of Kinderszenen, in my opinion he goes against expectations to further illuminate the "Scene" that he is writing about. For instance in the very first piece "Foreign Lands and People" the main theme ends on a major third above the tonic - giving it a "foreign" feel away from home. Classically, you want the theme to end on the tonic, but as it is you are left with a wistful feeling.

Ofcourse, no composer really bounds himself unconditionally to strict "rules", however, every composer knew very well these "rules", and they generally stuck to them, taking licenses for expressive, compositional and musical reasons. Of course we can assume that Schumann was taking licenses and not following a strict harmonic procedure. Actually, in the bar right before the one in question there are parallel fifths between the contralto and tenor voices. Did Schumann make a mistake? No, of course not, he put those fifths there to satisfy the melodic pattern he was doing with the parrarel 6ths in the bass and tenor voices...a musical purpose.

As regards to your comment on the first number of the Kinderszenen...there really isn't anything harmonicaly original or "defying" with the ending. It ends with the tonic chord (G in the bass). I agree with you on the feeling of giving it a "foreign", or distant feel, but my opinion is that this is because of the melody ending in B, along with the nuetral ending that kind of "fades the music away.."

As for licenses, I find perhaps No 4 "Bittendes Kind", a bit more interesting, beginning with a dominant 9th chord, using a secondary dominant 9th chord with a I chord in the middle, and ending with a dominant 7th chord.

[ramseytheii]

I realize this topic is very, very old, but i came accross it searching somethign else and wanted to give an opinion.

This discussion is about if there should or should not be an A in the contraalto voice in the 6th bar? Personally, yes, i believe there should be, for 2 reasons:

1.) The harmony implies that there should be an A there. In the 5th bar there is a modulation to A minor. The 4th bar ends with a V chord, and the 5th bar begins in A minor with a VII4/3 chord (G#-B-D-F natural), which resolves in a I chord in first inversion, then in the 6th bar we have again a VII chord, but in first inversion (VII6/5) which again should resolve in a I chord. the G# in the first beat of the 6th bar should resolve to A.

2.) To repeat a melodic design. In the first 3 bars of this piece the bass and tenor produce a parallelism of 6ths. In bar 5 schumann retakes this idea and repeats it, the A in bar 6 would give the composition a more coherent structure, representing ideas that were presented earlier...

What I find interesting, is that nobody has yet mentioned this happens twice!  not only in bar 6, but also in bar 18.  If it is a mistake, and he left out that one "A," why would it happen exactly twice?

And also, the logic you employ to put the "A" is basically theoretically accurate, but it really only represents one point of view.  You base your argument on the coherence of part-writing, and continuity of texture.  One the second point: if he is going for a straight-forward continuity of texture, why is the "E" written as an appogiatura?  To my mind, it is clearly a departure from continuity that he is going for (supported by the facts that each time a crescendo leads to nowhere, and that after each of these moments, there is a telling silence on the downbeat). 

If it was just straight-forward in texture, the "E" would have been written more simply, as part of a chord.  But it wasn't, and so that belies the argument that things should be presented in a theoretically correct way.

The harmony - Schumann is clearly creating in these parallel bars, a moment of suspense and tension.  The fact that he omits the most expected, the most predictable note, and replaces it with a vague gesture that has to be interpreted, is surely a very strong clue.  After all, what does he mean by writing a turn, and an appogiatura above it?  It is more gripping to the ear, that the most obvious note is omitted; we listen, and what for?  Only silence follows.  The mystery remains.

Omit the "A!"  Schumann was not always theoretically correct; even when Clara tried to put him in that particular box!

Walter Ramsey