curved fingers

[bnelson579]

Just wondering how teachers manage to work with students who tend to always play with "dented" vs. curved  fingers.  Looking for ways to develop the proper technique

[fleetfingers]

Just a few ideas - First, show them the hand shape you're looking for by having them relax their hand over the knee and then lift it up, keeping its shape, in a relaxed manner. This helps them to see generally what it should look like. Second, show them the point on the finger which should be depressing the key. If they have "dented" finger joints, then they need to move up toward the nail. Tell them that they need to practice this way to make their joints "strong". Giving complements as they practice this and get better at it will go a long way.

Having been a child who was allowed to play flat-fingered, then being made by another teacher to curve my fingers, I will say that it is a frustrating process. Because of my memories, I do not insist that my students play with the tips of their fingers ALL the time. I try to be strict when we do scales and offer reminders during pieces. But I don't point it out every single time and correct it, if that makes sense. You don't want them to end up with too much tension as they focus so much on one thing.

These are just a few ideas. I have only had two students who tended to play with collapsed finger joints (one was a transfer, so maybe a bad habit). Most students have had no problem once I showed them the correct position and reminded them here and there.

[cjp_piano]

I do "Finger O's" or "Finger Donuts"

You just make an O with fingers 1 and 2, then with 1/3, 1/4, 1/5, then the other hand. Each time, the teacher can press on the joint to make sure it's strong. Of course, the student should press on it with his other hand to check it when doing it at home. But it can be a fun game in the lesson because the student can always press on the teacher's very strong donut and see how strong it is!

[cjp_piano]

PS - I never tell my students to curve their fingers. This often results in tense, "cat claw" effect!

[johnmar78]

hummmmmm, very good question. You can play eitherway, curved or flat fingers, as long as the projection of sound/effect is acheived by the artist, then its acceptable. I play both flat and curved when music is REQUIRED.

If you look at Hollowize, his "reputation" was playing with "flat fingers", on the contray, look at some others, full time curved. I suppose, there is a line between tension /controlled muscle phrase during key striking.

I hope this explains..

[pianoplayjl]

I used to bend my fingers but recently I had a massive overhaul. My teacher taught me that my hand position on the piano should be as relaxed as possible. For example, just loosen your right arm and just let it hang by your side. The fingers should be curling inwards a bit towards your palm and the elbow slightly bent. Now, raise your arm and position your fingers towards the edge of the keyboard. As you are raising it the palm should be alligned with your forearm, not dangling from the wrist. So, the fingers should not be overly straight nor overly curved. It should be in between. My teacher went over this exercise with me a couple of times.

JL

[fleetfingers]

I play both flat and curved

What about "dented" as the OP describes? There is a difference between a healthy flat finger and one with a collapsed joint, no?

[johnmar78]

Fleet , if you got a collapsed jonts,,well, you will be on the disadvantage if you want be a good pianist. We all human, we do much as we could with our hands. So please look after your hands..eg no heavy weight lifting ok or cold water shower

[ted]

There is one special case where I have never been able to use curved fingers, and that is for the left hand of swing, ragtime and stride. I can get away with it for a while and in certain slow Joplin or similar, but sooner or later I get into trouble with it. Generally, I find curved better for power and clarity in finger work, especially on heavy action pianos, but big chords and bouncing around seem to demand something else. If you made a video of me, my fingers would still appear "curved" to a degree but I "feel" that I am playing flat - well straight rather than flat. Occasionally a tip joint might bend inwards but as it is through expediency and not weakness I've never particularly worried about that.

I have noticed on films that the hands of many very good stride players have a flat, spidery appearance, so perhaps I am normal after all.

[lukebar]

I used to obsess about getting my students to play with a rounded hand shape as soon as possible. I don't worry about it as much now, as I realize that some things take time to develop when it comes to coordination. But I always try to model a 'good' hand position.

I've used the image of holding a baby bunny or a water balloon and then turning the hand over while maintaining that shape. It works well because students understand that holding a baby bunny with a tight grip (overly rounded fingers) would strangle it. Holding it too loosely would allow it to hop off (too flat). (Equally detrimental results would come from holding a water balloon in either of those two ways as well. Girls seem to prefer the bunny analogy, boys, the water balloon.) Really, the natural curve of the fingers just like God made us is what we are after anyway.

I do try to get students to develop strength in their knuckles using the doughnut hole exercise described earlier. Collapsing joints are more of a problem than overly flat fingers in my opinion.

[fleetfingers]

Fleet , if you got a collapsed jonts,,well, you will be on the disadvantage if you want be a good pianist. We all human, we do much as we could with our hands. So please look after your hands..eg no heavy weight lifting ok or cold water shower

I don't have collapsed joints - we were talking about students. But what's wrong with cold showers?? I love them during the summer months; especially after exercising. Is that bad??

[johnmar78]

Fleet, our hands especially fingers are made up many small nervous nad fine muscles, as a pianist you need a pair of sensitive hands to play. These nervous/muscles  are easily damanged or torned if not looked after.
I do train my self on any season of the year with cold hand play as opposite to warm ups or put your hand in hot water before perfroming.

Most of concert pianist they have warm up rooms(piano room) for 20 minutes before they come to the stage.

Cold shower is good for summer, but putting your hands in icy water before performing would be a challenge. It just makes your hands less sensitive and dull.

[keyboardclass]

Really, the natural curve of the fingers just like God made us is what we are after anyway.

You can point out what a beautiful sight that is.  Even children see the beauty of a hand as nature made it (before the individual adds tension).

[fleetfingers]

Fleet, our hands especially fingers are made up many small nervous nad fine muscles, as a pianist you need a pair of sensitive hands to play. These nervous/muscles  are easily damanged or torned if not looked after.
I do train my self on any season of the year with cold hand play as opposite to warm ups or put your hand in hot water before perfroming.

Most of concert pianist they have warm up rooms(piano room) for 20 minutes before they come to the stage.

Cold shower is good for summer, but putting your hands in icy water before performing would be a challenge. It just makes your hands less sensitive and dull.

I see what you mean . . . I agree, it is hard to play with cold hands! Thanks for the explanation.

[ajspiano]

PS - I never tell my students to curve their fingers. This often results in tense, "cat claw" effect!

indeed - conciously pulling in the nail joint..  not at all the same as playing from the top knuckle joint with a naturally curved finger..

[nyiregyhazi]

indeed - conciously pulling in the nail joint..  not at all the same as playing from the top knuckle joint with a naturally curved finger..

I'd go even further and say that the action usually needs to involve straightening the end joint out very slightly. The age old tendency to describe it with reference to a curved finger scarcely scratches the surface of the real issues- especially seeing as the details of how the finger is acting upon the previously depressed note is the primary deciding factor in the position the finger (and whole hand) starts from. The curved part happens of it's own accord, when the prior finger supports well. A dangling finger can be at least as well poised as a tightly clenched fist- when the preceeding finger acts accordingly.

From this position, it's not about the intent to curve but rather the intent to lengthen out, as the means of sounding the key. If a curve is being forced to happen (rather than occurring as the natural result of completely different issues), it's a totally different scenario.

[nyiregyhazi]

I don't have collapsed joints - we were talking about students. But what's wrong with cold showers?? I love them during the summer months; especially after exercising. Is that bad??

Cold showers are very good for improving circulation. Ideally, you need to alternate between cold and hot, to keep the body adapting.

[fleetfingers]

Cold showers are very good for improving circulation. Ideally, you need to alternate between cold and hot, to keep the body adapting.

Good to know! I'll try it! 

Regarding curved fingers - what about the technique of "grabbing" the keys with a swiping motion, as when playing fast and pp? I understand that you wouldn't want to encourage an overly-curved, "catclaw" position; but to play Bach and Mozart, particularly, a pianist should be comfortable with more of a curve. This is just my perspective from my own playing. Since traditional lessons begin by teaching from the repertoire of Bach, then Mozart, it kind of makes sense to start with more curved fingers. Just a thought. I don't really know the answer - like I said, I didn't start that way - just thinking aloud.

[johnmar78]

Fleet, I bet you anything , go and try a long flat finger playing. This will give you a nice mellow sound. My explaination for this is, becaue we increase the surface of contact, like spreading tank tracks and there fore it acted as vibration damper of ineer mechanisum of the piano key bed.

The less vibation we get beofore struck teh string, the clear resonant you get.
If you can not hear the difference, you need try to hear it harder.

Cheers

[keyboardclass]

Since traditional lessons begin by teaching from the repertoire of Bach, then Mozart, it kind of makes sense to start with more curved fingers.

If I had my way I'd start with Kabalevsky.  18th century technique requires specialist treatment.

[keypeg]

I've used the image of holding a baby bunny or a water balloon and then turning the hand over while maintaining that shape.

Imagery can be a funny thing.  I remember being given the image of holding a small bird.  I was terrified of strangling the poor thing, and so held back, held in, made the fingers limpish.  The holding back created enormous tension.  Watch out for students with overactive imagination.  I would rather feel the piano keys, than imagine that they are cute fuzzy animals.

Should a student be "maintaining" a shape?  Or is the idea that the shape is constantly changing because the fingers are constantly moving?  Again, that image may be problematic.

[keyboardclass]

Should a student be "maintaining" a shape?  Or is the idea that the shape is constantly changing because the fingers are constantly moving? 

I'll go with the latter.

[keypeg]

I'll go with the latter.

My question was rhetorical, and that is what I was aiming for.   

[sguilmet]

The reason for the curve is a technique that encourages fluidity and speed. I use different methods with all my students to achieve "curved" fingers which I call "natural position". In no way should we make our students feel tense or inadequate for falling into anything but natural position, but I find it is easily corrected with constant monitoring and constructive positive reinforcement.

1. Have your student stand and put each arm down and have them completely relax their shoulders, arms, and hands.
2. While they are standing, gently lift their hand from the wrist (important when they are relaxed). The natural position of their hands will be curved and they can see it for themselves.
3. Have them sit at the piano in proper sitting position making sure that their shoulders, arms, and hands are relaxed and again take the wrist and set the natural hand on the piano.
4. Have them play a note with each finger (whether they know notes or not)

This is a great way to begin the process.
Tips....This has been so very helpful for me if they start to slip into a flat position.
I take my pointer finger and reach underneath and put it in the center of their palm while their hands are on the piano. I gently use my pointer finger to push up on their palm from underneath and make sure their hand is relaxed. Then I have them play while my pointer finger is still there as a guise. The hand lifts into natural position and they can feel how their hands and tips should be while actually playing. I then remove my finger and they are in the right position. I continue this process until they gradually move into the natural position automatically. It works wonders!

I hope this helps!
Oh, and by the way, My students get a real source of pride when they accomplish this. I always make sure that it is approached with a positive attitude and lots of praise.

[fleetfingers]

Should a student be "maintaining" a shape?  Or is the idea that the shape is constantly changing because the fingers are constantly moving?  Again, that image may be problematic.

While the fingers are almost always moving, there should be a "resting position" of the hand that the fingers relax to - the natural, relaxed, curved shape.

[fleetfingers]

squilmet, good ideas! Thank you for posting! 

[keyboardclass]

While the fingers are almost always moving, there should be a "resting position" of the hand that the fingers relax to - the natural, relaxed, curved shape.

Yes, it's a default.  Notice how beautiful your hands look in that position!  They are as nature made them i.e. before man takes control.