The 'project model': Prokofiev Suggestion diabolique

[costicina]

Here is my contribution to the ‘project’ model. I think it’s a very useful formula for a disciplined, focused practice, since it requires to dissect a piece identifying the troublesome spots and experimenting an array of possible solutions, to respect some kind of deadlines, etc.

After a forced break from piano playing, I’ve decided to apply this approach to   Prokofiev Suggestion diabolique:  not as famous as FI, Revolutionary or Appassionata, but nonetheless very captivating.  I hope the ‘project model' will help me, because I was  getting nowhere with  my previous approach. 

The piece presents many musical and technical challenges for me,  last but not least a ‘percussive’ nature I’m not familiar with. It requires speed and accuracy, a quality of touch/sound from time to time light and dry, hysterical and explosive. ‘Prestissimo fantastico’  is not only the tempo, but also the ‘mood’ of the piece: it should sound  neurotic and hallucinated,  even at a ‘reduced’ speed (I doubt I’ll ever be able to perform it ‘prestissimo’).

I’ll cover here the first section after the intro, focusing  on:  the rhythmical accents/impulses, with the consequent grouping of notes/chords and use of pedal (still too much);  the final fingering (I’ve kept changing it, now my brain is utterly confused); reaching speed and accuracy without tension; the first LH nineths (small hand is the main problem here), the RH arps&run after the chords.

I think that if I’ll be able to manage this section, I can do the whole piece (in time, I hope, for AJ’s marriage  )

Here is the score of these bars

[birba]

You poor girl!  I was laughing - non in cattiveria! - so hard when I heard "che schiffo!" in the background.  First of all, your practising looks hectic - too much stopping and repeating - I mean you have to repeat, of course, but it's HOW you repeat.  There has to be a reason - analytical and a correction.  You have to take a small group.  It seems to work in measures of 2 here.  play it slow, hands separate, se vuoi, but get it up to a moderate tempo where you no longer make mistakes.  I liked m1469's technique of moving an object from the right side of the piano to the left when she could do it 4 times in a row with no mistakes.  this means that for the moment, you must stick to a moderate tempo.  I know, I know this is already moderate.  I mean Costicina's moderate tempo.  What's important is that you don't make the same mistakes.  Otherwise it's going to become chronic.  Technically, I'm wondering if you're using too much wrist.  You have a wonderful relaxed hand which is good.  But that wrist seems to bob too much up and down. And unless you can curb the movement a little, I think it's going to hinder your speed. 
It can work at this speed, though, if you get that nervous sound and CONTROLLED tension.
Corraggio!!!

[costicina]

  Thank you, maestro, I'll follow to the letter your advices: only few bars, no mechanical repetitions, stop when it's ok at a moderate tempo, wrist supple but controlled. I got it right? 
I'd do everything to be able to play this piece, I'm kind of obsessed by it. I was getting discomforted, but with your help, maybe I'll do it!

P.S. Al last, I've the time to watch your Appassionata videos. I'm sure the way you practice can be inspiring.  Grazie ancora davvero di cuore
Marg

[candlelightpiano]

Your project is already off to a fast and wonderful start with a comment and suggestions from Birba, who, I'm sure will follow your progress closely. Your performance sounded good to me. Keep it up! I didn't understand all those Italian expressions Birba used. Will have to look them up. I'll be a faithful follower! I hope others will join you, too. The more the merrier. But not me. Sorry. This piece is too difficult for me, I think.

[starstruck5]

Wow -this piece sounds kind of evil! I think Prokofiev got the Diabolic vibe totally nailed.

He was a genius with a capital G for sure.

Have you ever tried memorising any part of this with eyes closed? I call this 'dark memory'  It really makes you cencentrate anyhow!

I really admire you for taking this piece on -you have made a very good start -lots to build on already!

[costicina]

Have you ever tried memorising any part of this with eyes closed? I call this 'dark memory'  It really makes you cencentrate anyhow!

First of all,  thank yo for your kind encouragement, I badly need it!! As
 for your advice, I've tried to play it at the digital piano with the sound off, using the keys as a sort of drums to getthe pulse and the rythm (and to save my marriage  ).  It has helped, so I think it's a good idea to try eyes closed, too, especially for the leaps..

[birba]

Have you ever tried memorising any part of this with eyes closed? I call this 'dark memory'  It really makes you cencentrate anyhow!

 

You know this is not a bad idea.  It would probably make you slow down a bit and do things deliberately and consciously rather then automatic playing.  Two bars at a time. 

[candlelightpiano]

Is Kissin playing the same piece you're trying to learn?

[costicina]

  yes, it's the same piece....
Played by Prokofiev himself is still better

[candlelightpiano]

You're right! Prokofiev played it the best - naturally!  It sounds like the music Alfred Hitchcock would have used in one of his scary movies like Psycho!  Don't feel sad. You'll be playing really well by the end of the project! Maybe not like Prokofiev - but close!

[costicina]

I’m obsessed by this piece. In Russian (fascinating language, I’m planning to learn it in the next future)  the title is  Navazhdenie: a thought, an idea, an image that keeps hunting you, getting more and more alive, obsessive and at the same time  mocking, elusive,  like an hallucination…I understand David (Rachfan) and his love for the ‘Russian soul’….But my Italian soul seems at loss here    

If the Introduction doesn’t seem to pose problems, what is driving me crazy is the beginning of the first section: perhaps it’s a mental  block, but I simply can’t tame these  bloody 4 bars   .

I’m trying to use the pedal in short strokes where the accents fall, marking the rhythm , but here
as in b. 4 and still worse in bb 40-41 etc., I tend to hasten, the hands stiffen, and if play at speed it’s a total, discomforting disaster. After days of practice, I’m still at this pitful point

The octaves, I don’t know why, are less troublesome ….
I’m in despair: please, please, tell me how I’m supposed to practice this section!!! I feel that if I’ll be able to nail it, the whole piece  will be mine….

[starstruck5]

Something that may help is to break the passage down into what I call 'not so difficult and difficult' Even in some of the most difficult passages there are micro sections which when you think about it,  you could play in your sleep. In these bars we have a basic repeated triad -nothing hard -here is where you free up your mind and prepare for what is difficult. Soon, you begin to put all your mental energy and being into that challenging bit - you allow in the light  ie that not all of it is difficult and I find it helps anyway -

Another thing you can do is to make a study out of leaps. Prokofiev, in those leaps- uses  notes built on 1+1 -if we take a semitone to equal 1-(I have never liked thinking in halfs! ) So make a sequence out of them and build 4 then 8 bars -it is kind of like being a composer yourself -it is not something made by others, but rather something we make ourselves, these are great seeds to plant I think-

Hope this helps a little. 

Your video was a little cameo of every pianist at some point! Even Yuja Wang I suspect.

[costicina]

Thank you soo much, Starstruck!!!
That was my hope: this piece can be grade 10++++ or whatever, but 4 or two bars are grade 1 in terms of difficulty.
The problem is, that isolating the passage I can more or less play it, but I acquire tension as long as I proceed, it's like a kind of infernal force of gravity...
Anyway, Russians are crazy (in the most fascinating meaning of the term), but Sardinians are obstinate...
Anyway, I've never met a man that resisted me so pertinacioulsy !!!

[49410enrique]

very happy to see you making a commitment and taking action to get this piece learned. i have always loved this work since someone in my previous piano proff's studio worked it for a recital, i am confident you will give a very successful and convincing rendition of it.

you get the  'atta girl ' for the day.

you're off to a better than fine start.

[costicina]

  Thank you, Enrique, I missed your wit!!!

[werq34ac]

You're right! Prokofiev played it the best - naturally!  It sounds like the music Alfred Hitchcock would have used in one of his scary movies like Psycho!  Don't feel sad. You'll be playing really well by the end of the project! Maybe not like Prokofiev - but close!

Actually, the general consensus is that Richter played it better than the Prokofiev!

[candlelightpiano]

Marg: Your two measures sound much better than when you played your first video so the suggestions by Birba and Starstruck have worked. Don't be discouraged! Just soldier on!

[ajspiano]

Those bars are looking considerably better than when we looked at them a few weeks back marg - I understand why you feel like they are not quite there yet but you look far less tense over the keys.

I'm going to review this and you aeolian harp thread properly tonight - I've been so out of action re piano over this weekend just gone and need to get my fix.

[costicina]

  Thank you, AJ....
I'm gonna thinking   I've a serious bipolar disorder:  some days I feel nothing could stop me, other days I feel  overwhelmed by everything   
 

[costicina]

Actually, the general consensus is that Richter played it better than the Prokofiev!

Here is Chiu's performance: I like it very mkuch, and not only because he too has small hands...

But I'll never, never be able to play at this speed, not even if I sell  my soul to Mr Satan, who however hasn't shown the least interest in the bargain  

[starstruck5]

I am not the best person on the planet to give advice, or technical help -but I know how you feel!

I sometimes wonder if in my own playing I am too impatient for speed -when of course accuracy is the most important part of the learning process -then Birba says in one of his Appassionata Videos that actually fingering which may work at a slower spped will not work at a more rapid tempo -so we have to try and play some passages like maniacs at some point -in order to know this.

We can't all have techniques like Pollini or Yuja Wang.

I think I will actually take a few steps back -they say that in order to go forward you have to do this sometimes.  I think you are way ahead of me anyhow!

[costicina]

I feel better knowing that I'm not the only one who is experiencing frustration, and a to and fro betewwn hopes and discouragement....
I've decided to go on with the other section of this piece. Meanwhile, I'm keeping experimenting alternative pattern of movement and fingering. Today I've discovered a way to redistribuite one of the RH chord with the left, it seems good to avoid tension.

Please, don't give up with the Appassionata. Perhaps you can flank it with anothere, less challenging piece. I'me using the Aeolian harp for this puropose, and it's saving me from desperation
 

 

[starstruck5]

Glad to hear that you are moving forward with this formidable piece.

I remember reading somehwere -I am not sure if it wasn't in a book by Neuhaus -anyhow a student says to him I am giving up the Appassionata -and he replies- no, it is the Appassionata which is giving you up!

 I do not want to be that person!

[candlelightpiano]

Marg:  You're definitely not alone in experiencing frustrations with piano. My FI is a total disaster and at times, I've felt completed discouraged with it and think of giving up on it but then, something tells me I can do it and I persevere. Keep up your pieces. The Aeolian Harp is coming along and it is a good breather from Prokofiev.  Consolation is a wonderful breather from FI and I absolutely love it.

Starstruck:  I hope you're feeling better. If not, take a complete rest from piano and return when you're 100%.  Even though Birba soldiers on thru injuries, no two people are alike.  What works for him may not work for you and vice versa so you have to know your own body and go with that.  

[starstruck5]

How are you getting on with this diabolical piece?  Hope you are still determined to play it!

[costicina]

Hi Starstruck!
the piece has definitely something demoniac about it!!!
 I've learned the introduction and I'm tackling the other sections; maybe I'm deluding myself, but they are less difficult than they seem...

But  that diabolical handful of bars are  resisting  all my attempts. There is a sort of spell   there, I'm sure  

Anyway, I have no intention to give up. I didn't have much time to dedicate to the piano lately, but I've managed to fisnish the Aeolian harp, and I hope to post soon a recording of it and of the few sections I've learned of my beloved, impossibile Prokofiev...

I'm glad to know that you didn't give up the Appassionata: it would have been such a pity, you weere gone very far into learning it!!!

Good luck, I'll follow your progresses with this monster of Sonata 


 

[costicina]

After a forced break, I’ve started the introduction and the section after the diabolic chords (I’m still struggling with them).  Of course, it’s just the beginning of  a long work in progress…

[starstruck5]

Wow you must be happy with that!  You made the piece sound really ominous -it was disappointing when you stopped!

[costicina]

  Thank you for the encouragement!!!!  I really would like to learn this piece, is so rewarding to play, almost  cathartic...

[candlelightpiano]

WOW!!  Marg!  That was spectacular!  Your opening intro sent shivers down my spine - so chilling!  Oh.....so scary!  The part after the opening was great, too, but I LOVED the intro!!  I think I should learn it now! 

[costicina]

I would be happy if you join me in this endeavour!!! Poor me, all alone with Mr. Satan 

I LOVE this piece, to play it is still better than to listen to it: pure adrenaline....

[candlelightpiano]

How long is this piece?  Just those two pages?

[costicina]

No, it's six pages long, and it gets crazier and crazier, with huge leaps, fast runs in both hands, culminating with two glissando...

[49410enrique]

this is coming along nicely, i think you have some room to exeriment and explore those 'quiet' low register sections in the opening, see if you can bring the total amount of sound down just a bit and play with the 'pacing' of those little bam bam bam, bam bam, bam bam...you know what i mean,  really make those spooky/ominous almost think colors, those would be shades of dark grey, dark navy blue/purple, then suddenly , POP, the higher sections hit suddenly out of 'fog' they jump out and almost scrare you silly, think someone is falling asleep in the front row and you want to wake them suddenly, then as quickly as those 'flashes' of 'brighter color' appear, they fade back in to the 'dark fog'...

i know that sounds way way subjective and probably too abstract to mak sense but this opening section can really set you up to provde incredibly contrast with the faster later sections quite nicely, also the ear is going to get a lot of sound thrown at them, let really 'savor' the quiet while we have it, it makes it so much more interesting.  again not that it isnt already, but this piece has a bit of schizophrenic bipolar disorder going on, really make me want to thow some prozac into the belly of your piano, or call a priest...

[49410enrique]

another thought, when the 'new face' takes over, can you makes it sound 'crunchy', it's hard to tell without my score in front of me but i almost want to hear that material (right around 36 sec into first viddy) have some bite, we just got off a series of chords where we obviouly (and want to ) pedal, maybe try making this more dry with more attack to the and a faster release out of the keys. i think hearing a stronger (albeit) short 'silence' separating the repeated chords will give it a 'taunting' feel, the image i get here is maybe an evil little fairly buzzing around your face and you're trying to swat it and it keeps moving about dodging you and sticking it's 'evil' litte tounge out at you saying 'nah nah nah nah nah nah', of course your crazy/possessed so you're the only one that can see it.....

make us all see swarm of these little guys taunting and driving you mad...

[costicina]

  What a nice surprise to find another person who feel so vividly the imaginative power of this piece!!! Many consider it musically 'poor', too simple, monochord. But we know how nuanced is its neurotic, hallucinated mood, scary and mocking at the same time, obsessive and elusive....

I know I've to work hard to convey all this; and you are so right: the silences, the pp are essential for the ff to stand out. The bars with the chords that are giving me such a hard time are difficult not only  for technical, but for musical reasons too: the should sound dry, light and sardonic , but at the same time  vicious and sinister.... touch, dynamics are   crucial here

Thank you so much  for the photos (you never disappoint me  !... really I was developing withdrawal symptoms). I'll add them  to the list of my nightmares

I swear solemnly: I'll do my best to do  justice to this crazy masterpiece, no matter how long it will take 

  

[candlelightpiano]

Marg:  From your description of the rest of this piece, I don't think I'll be able to join you!  FI and Consolation are already big challenges for me.    I wish I could join you, though.  This diabolical piece makes my spine tingle!  It's so creepy!  But I know you can do it.  You're already doing a great job with it. I can't wait to hear more!