Bonpensiere and release

[keyboardclass]

He had amazing ideas but sadly died in 1944 before he even saw his work New Pathways to Piano Playing published.  His main thrust is that everything apart from the expression in playing should be handed over to the unconscious.  To achieve the state of 'allowing' your body to carry out your intentions is a (the?) lifetime's study.

It would help if those who conceive me as a troll don't post in this thread - isn't that just forum etiquette?

[perfect_pitch]

It would help if those who conceive me as a troll don't post in this thread - isn't that just forum etiquette?

I think it's also forum etiquette that those who troll, don't post at all.   

[keyboardclass]

I think it's also forum etiquette that those who troll, don't post at all.    

Trolls have their own etiquette.

[j_menz]

[E]verything apart from the expression in playing should be handed over to the unconscious.  To achieve the state of 'allowing' your body to carry out your intentions is a (the?) lifetime's study.

Now that I agree with, wholeheartedly.

Of course, how that may be achieved has been known to generate arguments. The aim, however, is I think uncontestable.

[keyboardclass]

I think Willy Bardas (On the Psychology of Piano Technique) makes a start when talking about 'imposed pedagogy':

'The only physiological factors which would here be relevant, and which
constitute the basis and point of departure for the development of skill,
are the fullest possible relaxation of the muscles, their slackness, elasticity,
and suppleness.  It has been proven that in that state, their capacity for performance
is at its height.  It is only that state that perfect innervation of movement is possible.'

[j_menz]

Oh God. Not again.

And here I thought this might have stayed a sensible thread. 

[keyboardclass]

Oh God. Not again.

And here I thought this might have stayed a sensible thread. 

Sure.  It's sad when you can't quote great minds without small minds crapping on them!

[j_menz]

Sure.  It's sad when you can't quote great minds without small minds crapping on them!

And equally sad when you turn every thread you post in into a vehicle for your views on relaxation.

[keyboardclass]

And equally sad when you turn every thread you post in into a vehicle for your views on relaxation.

Is my name Willy Bardas? or Bonpensiere?  and anyway they're my threads!  Of course they're going to reflect my views.  Sheesh.

[ajspiano]

Sure.  It's sad when you can't quote great minds without small minds crapping on them!

..assuming that we allow j_menz sufficient time to study and form conclusions on piano technique... precisely what makes his mind any less brilliant than bardis/bonpensiere?

[keyboardclass]

..assuming that we allow j_menz sufficient time to study and form conclusions on piano technique... precisely what makes his mind any less brilliant than bardis/bonpensiere?

Who knows how brilliant he is?  If he has something to add worthwhile that's great.  It's the crapping on great minds that's so appalling - wait around and I'm sure some will be along soon enough.

[ajspiano]

that would be fair if he'd actually made a comment suggesting that your quoted passage was wrong, and provided no real reasoning for that opinion - his post was more along the lines of being amused at the likely K/N arguement that will ensue

[j_menz]

that would be fair if he'd actually made a comment suggesting that your quoted passage was wrong, and provided no real reasoning for that opinion - his post was more along the lines of being amused at the likely K/N arguement that will ensue

Quite so.

[lostinidlewonder]

Generalizations are fun to talk about and discuss, but in all reality they do not teach us anything unless we have the past experience to draw from and relate to.

The problem with this generalisation is that it is ignoring (or at least not mentioning) that to get to a point where you can play with a subconscious art you need to have gone through countless hours of conscious and physical practice to get to that point. NO ONE can merely do this immediately without a load of work.

[j_menz]

Generalizations are fun to talk about and discuss, but in all reality they do not teach us anything unless we have the past experience to draw from and relate to.

The problem with this generalisation is that it is ignoring (or at least not mentioning) that to get to a point where you can play with a subconscious art you need to have gone through countless hours of conscious and physical practice to get to that point. NO ONE can merely do this immediately without a load of work.

I agree that you require the hours of conscious and physical practice.  How much, what kind and of what may all be matters for discussion (apparently endless discussion I've learnt since joinong PW, but that's another thread).

However, I do think it is useful to keep in mind the aim of that practice. Understanding the goal is never pointless.

[keyboardclass]

How much, what kind and of what may all be matters for discussion (apparently endless discussion I've learnt since joinong PW, but that's another thread).

Perhaps you feel more at home in the sycophancy of Fraser's forum?  There everybody agrees!  (though I would think those who don't are easily disappeared)

I agree that you require the hours of conscious and physical practice.

There I would disagree.  I think you're just re-enforcing conscious control - battling against the body instead of letting it get on with the job (very Inner Game).  At least I think that's Bonpensiere's view - I'll have a look.

Meanwhile watch this:

it's about the same thing.

[keyboardclass]

Sure.  It's sad when you can't quote great minds without small minds crapping on them!

Oh, I see.  Not directed at John!  but at the crappers to follow, especially those who have no interest in Bonpensiere's or Bardas' extensive research but just want to supplant these ideas with their own ill thought out, ill researched bogus ramblings.  Can you respect a poster who has no respect for well researched work?  

[nick_op]

There I would disagree.  I think you're just re-enforcing conscious control - battling against the body instead of letting it get on with the job (very Inner Game).  At least I think that's Bonpensiere's view - I'll have a look.

It's interesting how people define certain terms. I'd have defined conscious control as the opposite as you, as I come from an Alexander Technique background. I'd see conscious control as this: one has to be aware of one's habits and consciously inhibit them in order to allow the body to do what it does best, as it is the unconscious habits (which are a false sense of control) that get in the way of good use.

In the end though, I think we agree as we both think of getting out of the way of ourselves - not imposing incorrect and fixed ideas of how a certain movement should or shouldn't be.

[keyboardclass]

Bonpensiere is some of the weirdest stuff you'll ever read about piano playing:

[keyboardclass]

I'd see conscious control as this: one has to be aware of one's habits and consciously inhibit them in order to allow the body to do what it does best, as it is the unconscious habits (which are a false sense of control) that get in the way of good use.

I think Alexander would be happy to say we have to go into (with our consciousness) ourselves (unconscious habits) to come out the other side - still unconsciously operated but without interference from bad habits.

[nick_op]

I think Alexander would be happy to say we have to go into ourselves (unconscious habits) to come out the other side - still unconsciously operated but without interference from bad habits.

At one time I'd have agreed. I think that view in not uncommon in the technique. However, I recently read an account by an Alexander Teacher about lessons she had with Miss Goldie, one of the first generation teachers. Miss Goldie maintained the view that one must work to be aware (i.e. conscious) 100% of the time.

I find the idea of total awareness interesting, and have had very fruitful experiences when exploring it. I don't find it that difficult to introduce into some activities (piano playing, of course, being a more difficult one, as there is so much emotional involvement and thus holding on/tension) Whether I still maintain that view in a few months time - only time will tell.

[keyboardclass]

I can relate to that.  I believe you should at all times be aware (notice - not operate) of your lower abdominals (hara, tan tien) especially in performance (and especially instruments where you stand).  Mabel E. Todd would agree, as would Ida Rolf.