Chopin op 25/1 again

[costicina]

Only tiny improvements....better than nothing?  
I'll be back with the 100th take, maybe that one will be ok, at last!!!!

[m1469]

I just love this etude and I hear that you are finding it beautiful, as well.  As I think that you are wanting to each time improve in your ability to express yourself musically, have you ever tried playing only the LH while singing the melody?  To me, this is not an instrumental piece as much as it is a song, with that simple yet gorgeous melody line above these layers of flowing color underneath.  It is easy to have that melody line be too severely linked -physically and in sound- to everything else, when it needs to be its very own, liberated and actually guiding layer.  Doing that in itself won't suddenly make it everything you want it to be, but will help with a sense of breath in phrasing, and these phrases want to breathe .

[keyboardclass]

 To me, this is not an instrumental piece as much as it is a song, with that simple yet gorgeous melody line above these layers of flowing color underneath.

Hate to intrude, but funny you should say that m1469.  Here's a recording I made on a Fender Rhodes piano years ago - I think in retrospect it's made for it.  The gorgeous tune just sticks out gorgeously!

p3kmw&index=30&feature=plcp

[costicina]

Yesss!!!! Only when I try to "sing" the melody in my mind I  have a clear idea how this piece should be played.
Sadly, between  the way I feel and perceive this suave piece and the way I actually play it there is still a big iatus…the refinement work will take a lot of time.

  It’s quite depressing, since this Etude is generally considered the easiest of the 24…

[keyboardclass]

If it's any consolation there's no easy piano music - it's all got to be played to the best of your ability.

[costicina]

Well, forget it...

I regret to have  posted this video, it's not at all better than the previous one...
Sorry, I'll try again...

[lukediv]

I thought it was pretty good:) You're always you're own worst critic and can probably hear every tiny little error or where it could have been better but overall it was very nice and was a pleasure to listen to. I thought the melody sung just fine

[costicina]

  Thank you so much for your encouragement!!! If you liked it, maybe there is some hope for me  ....
 

[birba]

I liked the ending in this take better then the other one.  But in general, I thought the overall fluidity was better in the previous one.  At any rate, it IS yours now.

[costicina]

 I tried to modify the title of the thread   I don't want to seem a perjure, but I'm afraid
this is NOT the last  take of the Etude....

Please, don't be angry with me    

[candlelightpiano]

Lovely performance, Marg!  Well done!  Lovely dress, too!

[pianoman53]

For me, I still don't see the point in posting this often... I think it's more important to really have time to achieve what's wrong in number one, before posting number two. And even though it might be a bit better, it's still exactly the same problems.

The middle voice is not under control yet, which gives this very fluent and calm etude a sense of... well, the opposite.

The melody is not really singing, which is the point of the study.

And the bass note is sort of just there... You don't seem to listen to it.

So even if you decide to post another recording, make sure you have this under control.

Your technique seem good enough to be able to fix this. Play it slowly, and really listen to everything

[costicina]

Ok, I'll post another recording only if and when there is a tangible improvement.
I already said that I regretted to have posted this performance, since it's not better than the previous one. But I woke up that morning feeling like I had the piece: evidently I was wrong 

 I'm sorry if I bothered you forumeers, since I do care a lot about your opinion. It won't happen again

 

[birba]

don't worry about some of the forumeers comments!  they can always avoid the thread and not be bothered to listen.   

[costicina]

don't worry about some of the forumeers comments!  they can always avoid the thread and not be bothered to listen.   

 

[emill]

Hello Margh!!!

First, let me just say without sounding "sexist"" that you are one physically fit lady!! (really an understatement on my part)

Second, thanks so much for all the generous and encouraging comments you have given Enzo. I know from his smiles that he appreciates it a lot.... only trouble is ... he is Soooo  Silent... as usual ...

Third, From a non-pianist, but a classical fan's perspective .... you played very WELL.  I just think that many pianists remove the fun of learning a piece by their stringent demands on themselves. So many technical and artistic requirements often imposed by the pianist on himself that often what seems to be an accomplishment for a particular moment, becomes a general failure in his mind. Be kinder to yourself..

[ajspiano]

Ok, I'll post another recording only if and when there is a tangible improvement...

...I'm sorry if I bothered you forumeers, since I do care a lot about your opinion. It won't happen again

I think that the constant posting is great. - maybe more suited to a project type thread but great all the same. This visualisation of gradual improvements we are seeing from people is an incredible learning opportunity. Unless you are a teacher you likely have never seen or had much idea about the learning process of other people, instead you just have you're own intensely personal experience with no way to compare yourself to anything..

..that aside, I think its important for you to stop and register that you can play 2 chopin etudes now. Which is a fairly awesome acheivement for any aspiring pianist - and you must remember also that those who can play these etudes at the high standard that you aim for (seen in videos like lisitsas, or heard in recordings like cortot/pollini etc.) have almost always received the benefits of having studied all 24

Watch them come alive as you learn a new one and return to a previous one. - case in point, I wager that if you go learn 4 bars of 10/11 - noting supinated forearms to aid the legato stretches without creating tension between the fingers - that aspects of 25/1 will seem significantly easier.

[fleetfingers]

Great points from ajspiano. I think that you have brought this up to a very reasonable standard and moving on to something else is a good idea. When you come back to this one, it will be easier and you will refine it even more. You've done a lot of great work on this.


I agree that the end sounds WAY better. It was messy and muddy before. It is very pleasant to listen to now; much more calm and clear. Great job! Lovely piece - this is one of my favorites! I keep meaning to learn it . . .

Don't mind pianisten1989. 

[virtuoso4]

very intersteing reading this topic. I think the artist should ask itself, what standard should I aim for?
1) professional 2) amateaur(semi prof) 3) student/casual/bit of fun

If you really want to acheive 2) you need to listen what other have said it to you in the previous posting(s). and start to listen each notes ONE by ONE, and slow down your eagers.
You need to do what people asked you to to , at the moment you are NOT. this is a downfall in your progress...
If you can do right from the start, it will cut down your learning curve by at least 50%.

But if you dnt want to aceive level 2), and like to be 3) than I congrdulate you, you have done very well. Now, stop and start learning a new piece I hope this helps.

[costicina]

Very interesting reply!!!   

1) None of your categories fits me. I play only for personal pleasure, but with the ambition to do  my best (whatever level it can be). So I tend to be perfectionist, and to reach the higher standard I can hope to reach.

2) The thread started in the Studend Corner board. If you listen to my first attempts (I posted some of them there) you would see that I've tried to follow all the helpful suggestions the forumeers have given me. Maybe I'm presumptuous, but I see a real progress, and I've understand many fundamental things in the process... However, I've not reached yet my upper limit, as low as it can be.


So please, if you have time, read my first posts ("The project model: Chopin Etude etc.").
On the other side, you are right, I tend to be too impulsive. But as I tried toexplain, the latter, unhappy recording was done in a particular morning, when I had the foolish feeling I could play better than I did the previous week.
I have apologized enough for that mistake, so I won't add anything else...I just reiterate my promise to post another attempt if and only if there will be a real  progress  ... 

Anyway, thank you for listening and commenting!!!!


 

[virtuoso4]

yes, I read thru you student corner, its getting better indeed but not quite 100%.

I think you belongs to categoty 3) personal pleasure, that I forgot to add. Sorry.

Hopefully  one day you will acheive your final objectives.

[danhuyle]

I wish I could play this rock hard etude. Right now, it's way too hard for me.

I had a listen to the first 10 seconds, since my internet connection is not a good one right now. Just in those first 10 seconds hearing the first phrase, the melody isn't flowing well and it's bumpy.

The good thing is you can play it from memory, and what you can do now is

Play with the book
Mark in phrasing and how you want to interpret the music

You have to not be affected by the technical difficulties, focus on the musical aspects and then make the technique part of the piece.

[fleetfingers]

I have been thinking about the continuity of your melody line . . . I wonder if it's the small hands that make it sound a bit disconnected? With many pieces, I have to pedal a special way to compensate for the fact that I can't reach far enough to connect the notes. Your melody does sing but maybe should be connected more through the use of the pedal. Sorry for commenting again. Like I mentioned, I haven't even played the piece, but just wanted to share a thought in case it helps.

[costicina]

Thanks a lot to  all of you, your criticism  is constructive and very helpful: I have a clearer idea now  of the  discrepancies between the "ideal model" I may have in mind and what I actually play. Knowing what is the problem and where it lies is essential to find a solution, or at least to try to find one!!!!

You are right, the melody line is not as fluent as it should be, and since this is the main point of this Etude, it seems I missed it entirely 
Sure, my small hands don't make things easier... but the real problem is that I'm a lousy amateur 


 

[virtuoso4]

Costica, do not be sad. My former piano teacher, she has your hands very small only 9 keys if lucky. She PLAYED this etude for me with a flat hands. But I have to say she has done her Bachelor of music in Sydney and master from Juliard collenge on USA. So, hands does not matter as long as you can hit 9. Its your methods of study. Looking forward to your next one...

[costicina]

Emill, you're not sexist...I'm flattened by your compliment  ... 

It's very nice of you to listen to my humble amateurish attempts, the more so as you are the lucky father of such a  talented  pianist like Enzo 

AJ, thank you so much, you caught well  my idea, that was to show a work in progress. I know that I'll never be able to play the Chopin Etudes as I  dream, nonethelss I've learned so much trying to learn them, that I'm thinking to add another one, op 25/12 to the set. It will be my summer homework...Poor Chopin,   I hope he'll forgive me 

[costicina]

Dan, I'm s bi puzzled    How is that you find too difficult this Etude, but have a good deal of Liszt TEs in your repertory?? Technically, if not from the musical point of view, they are considered much more advanced.....

[49410enrique]

great job so far, i hadn't commented thus far myself since so much of what you were /are already being told is pretty spot on (with the exception of 'no more videos...till perfect blah blah'...)

here's my suggestions and I hope you'll take this to heart and follow thorugh, do another video, like immediately, only this time, play the entire work at a 'snail' crawl of a pace, that is play the entire study as a 'performance' in slow motion (i.e. slowly but with the same approach as your up to tempo) , it may take a few takes but keep slowing it down bit by bit until you have a 'close to your version of perfect' as you can , you are in total control of each and every note, all movements and gestures have a plan and are executed with a purpose, you have more than enough time to listen to your sound and compensate and adjust accordingly so your phrases and high points are clearly defined, it will probably be 'painfully slow' that is you'll be tempted to speed up, don't.  the fastest this piece should be played right now is no faster than your most difficult slowest section, even the places you know it well.

i think this will help you really identify where the bulk of your immediate focus should be. you should sit down with the score away from the piano and with a pencil (preferrably in a different color than yo have been using) plan the work and where you want to take everything.  make note of special fingerings or even alternate ones to explore (you are afterall going slow enough to try new things and 'not mess up').  post that video.  i think many of the ' criticism' you have recived will not hold up well if you go only as fast as you need to to remain in complete control of the work and how you want every single note to sound. will it be the same etude? not perhaps in that take but it should be d@^$ close! and as you speed it up bit by bit in the comming weeks not a whole lot should change except the overall feel and energy of it as you are sticking to the 'plan'

i hope that works and isn't contradictory to how it should be taken from here , but myself if i were studying this and had it to hwere you are and was struggling to make the neccessary fixes with other methods this is the one i would explore.  at the very least it can't hurt and the best case is that you discover places you thought you knew well but perhaps not as well as you thought.

edit. also i have to respectfully disagree with #3 category 'student/..." i'm a student and i feel like it means you are not capable of a #2 or close to #1 performance unless you are no longer the former...that would be a bummer.


now go get it. be a piano beast!

[ajspiano]

I wish I could play this rock hard etude. Right now, it's way too hard for me.

I sincerely doubt that this is too hard for you - unless you are just missing some vital information not having a teacher and all..  haven't you done winterwind? - significantly tougher piece. some aspects of 10/4 would prepare you for it aswell, and I'm sure I read you've done that, as would the fantasie impromptu LH (i'd be surprised if you hadn't done that already..)

Poor Chopin,   I hope he'll forgive me

If chopin had intended them to be played flawlessly by all those attempting them without some work/struggle/learning between point A and point B, I sincerely doubt he'd have titled them "etudes"..  Nor would he have written more than 1 if he thought you would be a flawless pianist after having learnt 1.

[costicina]

now go get it. be a piano beast!

  Your advice is so good (as always!!!): it's exactly what I tried to do today, playing the piece in slow motion, so solve once and for all the problems I've already identified, but was too lazy and to impatient to tackle and to solve.

I'm really grateful for your encouragement, since I felt  a bit disheartened and was even thinking I've been overambitious and presumptuous, trying to learn pieces far above my skills.
But I'm stubborn as a donkey, and I've decided to perseverate....
My cat Felipe too seems less hostile towards Chopin, perhaps he pities him and solidarize  ... or is just as nice as you, Enrique, and in his way is trying to console me...

[virtuoso4]

Your advice is so good (as always!!!): it's exactly what I tried to do today, playing the piece in slow motion, so solve once and for all the problems I've already identified, but was too lazy and to impatient to tackle and to solve.

Congradulations Costica, you have finally did the RIGHT THING - slow playing and listen.
The whole piece is like a puzzle, you need to patch up every single notes as possiable to form a beautiful picture. Only time can tell. Good luck.

4941enq, I do want to be picky, picking bones out of an egg, as for student, I meant general high school students, not the students from universities or conservatory. Because, most uni students they have teachers from conservatory. In rare cases, there is an exception, high school students doing  scholarships thru conservatory. All good, all clear now.

[49410enrique]

no worries, your category in that context makes sense. 

@ costi....keep in mind that it isn't practice makes perfect, it's perfrect practice lead to perfection...or the saying goes as i've heard it.

another one to repeat to yourself when you get impatient, slow practice makes fast progress.

stay with it.

[costicina]

The problem with me, is that I know rationally so many wise and useful principles, but I'm too lazy or impulsive (stupid?) to put them in practice....
I waste so much time in mindless, mechanical practice,  playing over and iver the same passage, always with the same mistakes: the very thing I know I should avoid like the plague

[johnmar78]

Costi, I am just about to go to practice, its 12 am, yup, I do one hour before bed, since I have double brick house. so as my nebouigbours.
I watched your Video, even you think is not good, but good enough for you that you strive hard  , so Charge it!!! Kill chopin eyude, this is no etude, but music.  Now Please  go back to your piano and make a good progress, cu...

[iratior]

I've spent most of my pianistic life trying to do Chopin etudes.  Some, like opus 25 no. 2, I'm relatively pleased with my progress on;  others, like opus 25 no. 4, I've gotten almost nowhere with.  I suspect that a lot has to do with having a good teacher who can show you the secrets.  For opus 25 no. 1, my music teacher (she studied with Moritz Rosenthal in Paris) said a special arm movement was needed.  As she would play this etude, she would move her arms as if there were ink at the tips of her elbows, and she was trying to write the letter "O" with them on invisible blackboards -- counterclockwise with the right arm, clockwise with the left.  I've found that advice very helpful.  I've also found that some of the notes of the upper melody come out better if played with the fourth finger instead of the fifth.   But -- different people will do things different ways.  There is no substitute for experimenting.

[costicina]

Thank you so much, Iratior, for your suggestion!

Yesterday I woke up in a strange mood, and decided to play this piece just for the joy of it, thinking only to music. It was great -- the feeling I mean, not the performance  ...  I understand somehow why we amateurs with no ambition whatsoever  slave at the bench practicing... The joy and the pleasure of playing is beyond description...

Here is the recording. It's still a mess, but I hope it can trasmit to you at least a tiny spark of the my inner glow

 

[costicina]

Thank you so much, Iratior, for your suggestion!

Yesterday I woke up in a strange mood, and decided to play this piece just for the joy of it, thinking only to music. It was great -- the feeling I mean, not the performance  ...  I understand somehow why we amateurs with no ambition whatsoever  slave at the bench practicing... The joy and the pleasure of playing is beyond description...

Here is the recording. It's still a mess, but I hope it can trasmit to you at least a tiny spark of the  inner glow I experienced then

 

[flyinfingers]

When in Italy, dress like the Italians do!  
Love your playing!  
Wait!  Did you wake up and dress like that?  I'm in my PJs a lot!  I need help!
Okay.  I did put a shirt on. 

[costicina]

 

When in Italy, dress like the Italians do!  
Love your playing!  
Wait!  Did you wake up and dress like that?  I'm in my PJs a lot!  I need help!
Okay.  I did put a shirt on.

Don't worry, Denise... The recording was done in the afternoon, and  generally I wear jeans and sneakers.  But for that occasion I put  what I call my "Chopette outfit",  imaging to play for a real audience. It's silly, I know, but it helps. Somehow I feel more 'appassionata' and  'amorosa' in this way. Perhaps I'll "dress to kill"  doing  another experiment with the Rev Etude.
...But my cat Felipe is far far less nice than Keno, and less compliant with  my piano playing!!!!

[flyinfingers]

Don't worry, Denise... The recording was done in the afternoon, and  generally I wear jeans and sneakers.  But for that occasion I put  what I call my "Chopette outfit",  imaging to play for a real audience. It's silly, I know, but it helps. Somehow I feel more 'appassionata' and  'amorosa' in this way. Perhaps I'll "dress to kill"  doing  another experiment with the Rev Etude.
...But my cat Felipe is far far less nice than Keno, and less compliant with  my piano playing!!!!

HA!  Maybe that's why I can't play well!  I need a Chopette outfit and I'm sure hubby would love it!  I can't get Keno off my lap when I play!  I love her.  
I'll bet you're in your 30s.  I was feeling like wearing a Chopette outfit a lot then!  HA!
  and feeling a lot more "amorosa" back then!

[costicina]

I'm much older than 30  
And I hope your hubby is more sensitive than my Francesco, who finds 'ridiculous' my "Chopette outfit"...  
I'm sure you'll be stunning with your "piano outfit". Share it with us!!!!!

[49410enrique]

i need one of those.

*logs on to ebay in search of chopette outfit...

edit. no such luck, but there's some sweet sombreros.  keeps looking.

[costicina]

 

[costicina]

I'm much older than 30  
And I hope your hubby is more sensitive than mine, who finds 'ridiculous' my "Chopette outfit"...  
I'm sure you'll be stunning with your "piano outfit". Share it with us!!!!!

[flyinfingers]

I can barely post a pic!  Someday....
I had Keno in a pink and white polka-dotted dress today.  Does that count?
You have a young daughter.  You can't be that old!  Ew, did I just type that word, "old"?  

[flyinfingers]

Putting your piano playing back up there in your "Chopette" outfit!  

Well, I tried.  Sorry.