Chopin - Etude Op 10, No. 12 in c minor

[perfect_pitch]

Greetings...

My piano teacher has asked me to learn this etude in order to 1) get me to really think about the pedalling, and 2) to ensure that clarity is kept in the left hand and to really keep the left hand accurate in playing.

I submit my recording of a Chopin Etude, I ask that if any of you have any advice, no matter how small, I would greatly appreciate it.



(And no, I didn't learn this simply because Costicina did - my teacher asked me to start learning this 3 weeks ago).

[costicina]

Hi Perfect,
if you play like this in only three weeks, it's really an astounding achievement!!!!!
I liked very much your performance, clarity, dynamics, etc.: the only 'flaw' I can find are the final chords (but it's a matter of personal taste).
Bravo, I'll try to learn from you!!!!!

[pianoman53]

Hi PP!

First off, good job in short time! You got the basic stuff under control, so now you can have loads of fun with it.

1) Now when you got the technical aspect, try to figure out how to phrase the left hand. A bit cresc on the way up, and dim on the way down.. Also the long run in the beginning needs phrasing, or else it's getting far too static.

2) Practice the right hand leap in the beginning, so that it sounds like one line with direction. Now it's like da.. da... It should be line daDA... if that makes sense in written form.

3) Dynamics, dynamics! Notice that the theme first is loud, then soft. Try to make more out of that (and generally in the whole etude. It needs more variation)

But as I said, good job in short time!

[danhuyle]

I downloaded the recording. The left hand, for the most part, is static.

At least you have a teacher to show you this.

At 1:10 - 1:17, the dynamics are the same and this speaks for most of the recording. I like to play the melody softer the first time and crescendo to the 1:20.

I had trouble learning this etude in my first 5 months.

Look forward to your next recording.

[perfect_pitch]

Well... It's been almost two weeks since I first posted my first recording, and thanks to the holidays, I've had a bit of time to clean it up a little and get my head around the dynamics.

Hopefully this recording isn't as fumbly and static.

Again, please let me know what you think.

[costicina]

Hi Perfect,
your Rev has dramatically improved both from the technical point of view (almost flawless), and as the musical aspects are concerned: dynamics, touch, etc. Perhaps  I would have  liked it a bit more passionate, less 'etudistic', but it's really a matter of personal taste. I whish I could play it like you. Great job, bravo!!!!!

[birba]

Well, technically, that was almost flawless.  And I like the tempo.  But it sounded like you were playing with the metronome.  There was absolutely no give and take.  It was a straightforward rendition of an etude.  With that preparation and the marvelous hands that you've got, you could really do something with this.  That left hand is going to hit all the notes - you have nothing to worry about there - so really concentrate on that pathos going on in the right hand.

[perfect_pitch]

The one thing I was worried about was stamina of this piece. Trying to get it to this tempo as quickly as I can, was what I was mainly trying to achieve.

I'll try and focus on the flow of the piece. The only thing I wasn't sure of was whether this piece would allow a lot of ebb and flow. It is marked with playing with fury, so I didn't want to try and fake it by trying to have lots of slower emotional bits. I sometimes feel people do that to try and fake emotion - you know, the slower the better.

I wasn't sure if it applied to a piece like this.

[birba]

But it has nothing to do with speed!!  Like I said, your tempo is perfect.  At least, for me.  It has to do with breathing in the right hand.  That's it.  It sounded like you were playing everything in one breath.  This give and take I'm talking about has nothing to do with the general speed of the etude.  You said it beautifully, "playing with fury".  That's what I didn't hear.  Playing it fast doesn't create fury.  The fury has to be shown with those infuriating(!) octaves and the waves of anguish in the left hand.

[danhuyle]

The one thing I was worried about was stamina of this piece. Trying to get it to this tempo as quickly as I can, was what I was mainly trying to achieve.

I'll try and focus on the flow of the piece. The only thing I wasn't sure of was whether this piece would allow a lot of ebb and flow. It is marked with playing with fury, so I didn't want to try and fake it by trying to have lots of slower emotional bits. I sometimes feel people do that to try and fake emotion - you know, the slower the better.

I wasn't sure if it applied to a piece like this.

The speed of Etude 10/12 should not be forced. What's more important is the interpretation. I play this etude myself and seriously, do not emphasize the speed.

Playing this fast without interpretation means nothing. The only reason why I would try to play as fast as I can is to know the motions so that when I play it slow, I can speed it up any time I want.

This speaks for other things I play too.

[iratior]

It's wonderful that you've made such good progress on this etude in such a short time.  It used to be one of my teacher's favorite pieces.  I would suggest making the left hand part softer vis-a-vis the right.   Although the right hand has much fewer notes to play, it's still more important; doing it in a really vigorous, con fuoco way makes a big difference in the amount of pizzazz you can get out the piece.  One can be thinking "Vive la France" when the melody is as at the close of the Marseillaise (everybody does know about that, don't they? -- there's good reason to call this the Revolutionary Etude).  My fingering for the left hand at the beginning is:  34132313231323132313231515 etc.  I mention this because I think this fingering makes it easier to do the accenting as Chopin directed.  The need for a steady flow of notes in the left hand makes it harder to keep the rhythm clearly accentuated.  I've found fingerings to do that, but Czerny disciples would disagree violently with them!

[perfect_pitch]

Mmmm... some great comments and advice. Thanks for that.

I still have a few weeks to get this piece ready for a small performance so I shall certainly keep everything you've said in mind.

Thanks for that.   

[mobydick]

***! What is your piano level? I tried starting this piece today and, in an hour or so, I only managed a couple of phrases really reaaly slow (almost like a retard). Do you have a degree or something?

[mobydick]

The one thing I was worried about was stamina of this piece. Trying to get it to this tempo as quickly as I can, was what I was mainly trying to achieve.

I wasn't sure if it applied to a piece like this.

I agree with, this piece is supposed to be played in one go, as the beginning indicates, as a cyclone. not suppose to be like slowed up and down.

[perfect_pitch]

Hey Moby...

I've been learning piano for 18 years now, did piano exams, passed the AMEB LMusA, and have a degree in Music Education (Classical) from the Western Australian Academy of Performing Arts.

I've been playing for a while... a long while.

Although, contrary to what you said, although the piece is meant to have fury and lots of it, my piano teacher insists that there has to be a little give and take with the tempo to allow the RH melody to breathe a little.

Same as Maurizio Pollinis recording.

[mobydick]

Hey Moby...


I've been playing for a while... a long while.


Same as Maurizio Pollinis recording.

Uff, for a while I felt with inferiority complex!:) I would play this well if the tempo was 60bpm LOL.

I heard the Pollini version, and sincerely don't like it. I would just attack the whole thing in one go and think about someone I hate. I think this piece is about the bombardment of Warsaw, its anger really.

Example:

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there are some piano bits in it, but I think is more a question of giving logic to the phrasing rather than showing other emotions of the heart. I think Pollini deviates towards mushy anger in my modest beginners opinion.

[perfect_pitch]

As much as I generally don't like to just favour individual pianists... To me - Pollini is the piano god.

I have heard a great number of his recordings from different composers and not only do they seem to be technically flawless, but they also still retain energy without drastically speeding up the piece to do so.

Look at Lang Lang - SEVERAL of his performances are seen as impressive, ONLY because they are played incredibly fast, however I feel that because of the speed - they sacrifice melody and lyricism.

To me sadly enough, Richter is good, but I feel that the video may be sped up slightly only because of two reasons... Very early video recordings were sometimes a little fast when played back, so I personally think he probably played it in real life a fraction slower than he did in the video - I also say that because the piece is about a semitone higher than it should be.

So I can see what you mean about:

I would just attack the whole thing in one go and think about someone I hate. I think this piece is about the bombardment of Warsaw, its anger really.

However, if you're talking about the Bombing of Warsaw in WWII, then we're talking about an event that happened almost a century after Chopin died, so I can't convince myself to think about that when playing this piece. Richters performance did seem to have a lot of hate running through it, but Koziak seemed to also lengthen some moments to allow the melody to breathe a little - much the same as Pollini.

Anyway, I'm still working on the piece and I still have 3 weeks to perfect it. Here's hoping.

[mobydick]

Anyway, I'm still working on the piece and I still have 3 weeks to perfect it. Here's hoping.

You're right, its the defeat of warsaw against russians in 1831 revolution (I think). Nevertheless its war and Pollini seems like he's playing a waltz.

Yes Richter is too fast but interpretation wise its a different world.

Anyways, there is a soft bit in the end where you have a different mood which I think is a bit of sadness mixed with frustration that the second pianist does really well. I sort of liked it, because its a nice conclusion for the anger. But I think is easy to turn chopin pieces into a sentimental mess if you're not careful.

Thanks for posting this. really nice.

[danhuyle]

Hey Moby...

I've been learning piano for 18 years now, did piano exams, passed the AMEB LMusA, and have a degree in Music Education (Classical) from the Western Australian Academy of Performing Arts.

I've been playing for a while... a long while.

Although, contrary to what you said, although the piece is meant to have fury and lots of it, my piano teacher insists that there has to be a little give and take with the tempo to allow the RH melody to breathe a little.

Same as Maurizio Pollinis recording.

What does it take to get an LMusA Perfect_Pitch? My teacher said I'm not skilled enough for it   

He said you have to have flawless rhythm, tempo and interpretation like Richter, Pollini or Argerich. If I had it, the LMusA is like the key the virtuoso piano kingdom.

Well, technically, that was almost flawless.  And I like the tempo.  But it sounded like you were playing with the metronome.  There was absolutely no give and take.  It was a straightforward rendition of an etude. 

Oh what? First people complain about tempo changes and now they complain about no give and take? Playing with the same tempo in strict metre is very hard to do.


Back to the video. Yes it's an improvement over the mp3 recording. For a person with an LMusA, you should be playing the entire set of Chopin Etudes. It is what the power of LMusA, far more powerful than a Bachelor of music degree which I have.

[perfect_pitch]

Hey Dan..

It takes a lot to do it. I failed the first time, attempted to do it a second time, but the teacher asked me to push it back one more year and give myself a fresh start. Beat it on the third 'try'.

OF COURSE, this is coming from someone who before University was taught by idiots at the piano. Apart from one teacher who I only had for about two years, the rest were self-taught morons who didn't teach discipline in playing, or accuracy, or even correct bloody technique.

Basically - to pass the LMusA, you need to play with conviction, emotion, and to play it at a standard that you would hear on a professional CD. If you're thinking of playing a Chopin Ballade - think of playing this as if you were recording a CD to sell. My Chopin Ballade may not have been as good as Pollini... but I did a damn fine playing of it none-the-less.

Sadly enough - there's worse. I'm going for the FMusA. It's the one ABOVE the LMusA.

Twice before completing the LMusA, I almost convinced myself to give up on the piano, but because of the respect and admiration for the piano I have, and towards my teacher - she helped me pass. If you're teacher says you're not skilled enough for it - ask what you can do to get closer to completing it. Tell them seriously that you would like to pursue it and you wish them to help you get there. My teacher did, and if your teachers good - I'm sure she will.

[mobydick]

Mind if I ask an unrelated question? do you practice Czerny or Hanon? thanks

[perfect_pitch]

I just recently bought the Hanon - Exercises for the Virtuoso Pianist, but I just use them as a warm-up. After practicing trills and everything with the 4th & 5th finger - I don't really need a lot of practice keeping them independent.

Most of the exercises I just use for sight-reading.